Full concept MODIFICATION of S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Call of Pripyat that touches every game aspect including textures, sfx, music, weapons, A.I., items, weather, mutants, difficulty and much much more!

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Correct real life terms (Mods : MISERY : Forum : General subjects : Correct real life terms) Locked
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N.Aaroe
N.Aaroe MDT Lead
Mar 5 2013, 5:53am Anchor

As you well know we have come up with a gui tweak that lets all consumable items be displayed ingame in "kcal eq." as mentioned here.
This is a tweak that makes the item much more informative and actually display values that we can relate to and maybe even learn from.

So - what this basically means that we can put each of our property in proper scale first
(if we want something to be displayed in thousands or hundres or tens - no prob) and then we can just give it the exact real-life unit.

- - - - -

Now - please post your ideas for this.
We have following stuff to cover:

Radiation = proposition: Sv = siwert.
Is that a viable a way potraying amount of radiation someone takes from something / has received?
if so should be presented in mili-siwerts or kilo-siwerts?
Or maybe there completely different unit available which more precisely descibes 'biological damage caused by radiation'?

Toxicity protection
= ???

Burn protection
= what is a unit which describes thermal protecting efficiency of clothing?

Psi protection
= ???

Damage protection
= is there an military used unit which describes protection efficiency of body armor?

Stamina increase
= ???

That all guys - any ideas / insight is very much welcome :)

Thanks in advance!
MISERY dev team

Edited by: N.Aaroe

Mar 5 2013, 6:38am Anchor

For body armor there is a armor level, that indicate the protection: En.wikipedia.org

Mar 5 2013, 6:41am Anchor

To the rescue!!.
There are various standards of personal armour bullet protection for various military and police units around the world. Some specifications are classified and a bit hard to find. Generally the level of protection is divided between the material used to create bodyarmour and the types of ammunition it can stop. Like, from "Type I" to "Type IV", for example. The highest level are the EOD suits which can (in theory) protect the wearer from direct IED/bomb explosion. Helmets are also included not just the vests that are used to protect the torso.
This is a nice guide for a starter:Safeguardclothing.co.uk
There IS a designed chart for toxicity protection simillar to the one mentioned before. In the U.S. there is a simple ABCD system used by the Police and civilians. A is the highest whereas D is the lowest. The military uses MOPP which is split on 6 levels of readiness and is more of a threat indicator rather then an actual protection level.
Also in here:Armystudyguide.com
Psi protection could be hard to explain the realistic way. Stamina increase could be somewhat explained via calculating how much longer the player can move/run (??).

Edited by: Reborn:X

Mar 5 2013, 6:41am Anchor

For radiation sivert is good i think (it maybe spelled with a v not a w), here is something to decide values:

  • 0 – 0,25 Sv (0 – 250 mSv): No symptom
  • 0,25 – 1 Sv (250 – 1000 mSv): Some people might experience retching and lack of apetite; bone-marrow, lymph and slpeen demage.
  • 1 – 3 Sv (1000 – 3000 mSv): moderate or strong sickness, lack of appetite, taint, more serious bone-marrow, lymph and slpeen demage, recovery is feasible but not sure.
  • 3 – 6 Sv (3000 – 6000 mSv): strong sickness, lack of appetite, bleeding, taint, diarrhea, slough (skin), loss of reproductin ability ; if untreated-death.
  • 6 – 10 Sv (6000 – 10000 mSv): All above + demage to centrall nervesystem, ceartin death.
  • 10 Sv or more (10000 mSv): Paralysis and death.
  • A banana: 0,1 μSv
  • 8 hours of sleep near another human: 0,5 μSv
  • X-ray picture for dental porpouses: 5 μSv
  • mammography: 3 mSv
  • Computertomographie on brain: 0,8–5 mSv
  • Computertomographie on chest: 6–18 mSv

For toxicity ratings i found this:
European union devides toxicity in classes:

  • Class I: very toxic
  • Class II: toxic
  • Class III: harmful
  • Class IV : corrosive
  • Class V : irritant
  • Class VI : sensitizing
  • Class VII : carcinogenic
  • Class VIII : mutagenic

Very toxic and toxic substances are marked by the European toxicity symbol.

to describe stamina gain i think the kcal system is good or some products label their contained energy in kJoule if you want that :D

ill look around about the others a bit more :D

Edited by: GabeTheKid

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Mar 5 2013, 6:52am Anchor
darthg64 wrote:For radiation sivert is good i think (it maybe spelled with a v not a w), here is something to decide values:

The correct spelling is Sievert.

Mar 5 2013, 7:14am Anchor

for PSI fields i found this:

"In previous research, we found that rats acutely (2 hr) exposed to a 60-Hz sinusoidal magnetic field at intensities of 0.1-0.5 millitesla (mT) showed increases in DNA single- and double-strand breaks in their brain cells. Further research showed that these effects could be blocked by pretreating the rats with the free radical scavengers melatonin and N-tert-butyl-alpha-phenylnitrone, suggesting the involvement of free radicals. In the present study, effects of magnetic field exposure on brain cell DNA in the rat were further investigated. Exposure to a 60-Hz magnetic field at 0.01 mT for 24 hr caused a significant increase in DNA single- and double-strand breaks. Prolonging the exposure to 48 hr caused a larger increase. This indicates that the effect is cumulative. In addition, treatment with Trolox (a vitamin E analog) or 7-nitroindazole (a nitric oxide synthase inhibitor) blocked magnetic-field-induced DNA strand breaks. These data further support a role of free radicals on the effects of magnetic fields. Treatment with the iron chelator deferiprone also blocked the effects of magnetic fields on brain cell DNA, suggesting the involvement of iron. Acute magnetic field exposure increased apoptosis and necrosis of brain cells in the rat. We hypothesize that exposure to a 60-Hz magnetic field initiates an iron-mediated process (e.g., the Fenton reaction) that increases free radical formation in brain cells, leading to DNA strand breaks and cell death. This hypothesis could have an important implication for the possible health effects associated with exposure to extremely low-frequency magnetic fields in the public and occupational environments."

In short a low lever magnetic field can cause DNA damage but it can be helped with vitamines. 50-60Hz is a critical value (becouse it's the most harmful) but i dont know if the damage inflicted is higher if the field is more powerfull or not :P i might read some more about that :)

Edit: allso you might wanna consider writing some tips about theese to the stalker journal to help people :D

Edited by: GabeTheKid

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K.E.V.L.A.R.
K.E.V.L.A.R. Сталкер
Mar 5 2013, 8:01am Anchor

For toxicity there are some units of measure; LD50 for solid/edible toxins and LC50 for gas/breathable toxins. Not sure if they are in any way applicable to units of toxicity protection.

Edited by: K.E.V.L.A.R.

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trojanuch
trojanuch Gameplay lead
Mar 5 2013, 9:50am Anchor

This is very awesome stuff guys, loving it - thank you :)

As a 'reward' I promise at least 3 spoiler-heavy screens of inventory with new scales implemented.

So - I think that so far we might have established:

- radiation: consumables: x mSv (most in range 100-1000 mSv) ; artifacts / outer sources: x mSv / sec (most in range 10-100 mSv / sec) ; meaning: consuming radioactive food gives radiation equivalent of x mSv.. Radiation healing / protection agents are able to reduce radiation by x mSv per second.

- toxicity protection: x ppm eq. (parts per milion equivalent) ; meaning: certain drug / equipment has a potential to protect from envirnoment with x condensation of Class 1 LC50 (human) toxicity (or equivalent). Only 10 ppm condensation of such substances is capable of kiliing 50% of test human population within 1 hour of exposure (toxic fields in the Zone have by average ~60 ppm condensation of Class 1 agents (or equivalent) - meaning that they are potent enough to kill 50% of human test population within 10 minutes of exposure)
I guess we're gonna hire scientists in the Bunker to lecture everyone about this stuff ;)

- psi protection: x mT (militesla) ; meaning: certain drug / equipment is able to protect effectively from psi field of x mT = militeslas (psi field of controler has 5-20 mT power?)

This is of course very much open to discussion.

Please keep it comming :)

Edited by: trojanuch

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Mar 5 2013, 11:31am Anchor

Personally, I would look into the SI standard. Anyway,

Toxicity could be expressed with one of the toxicity scales, though I don't think class VII= carcinogenic really matters in the goddamn Zone.
Anyway, the toxic anomalies are also caustic, so I would include the pH-level of the base you are taking to counteract the acidic chemicals. Lower bases can only neutralize low levels of acid.

Stamina could be expressed by adrenaline uptake. A shot of adrenalin typically contains 500 or 1000 micrograms of adrenaline, a can of Red Bull (8 fluid Oz) causes the release of about 400 micrograms adrenaline, a cup of tea about 175 µg, and a soda can 150 µg.

The unit for thermal resistance, R, is expressed with (m²K)/W, but that could be hard to use. Better suggestions are the melting point of the cooling factor in your suit, like if I wear a suit with upgraded thermal fiberglass protection, you could mention the melting point of fiberglass as a point of reference. Or you could take the unit TR (ton of refrigeration) which is a unit that is used for cooling, 1 TR =the latent heat absorbed by melting a short ton of pure ice at 0°C in 24 hours. Anyway, do what you like. There's no exact unit anyway.

Radiation, nothing to add.

As for damage protection, why not go fully realistic? Simply mention what the suit contains (e.g. layers of kevlar, number of ceramic plates,...)and tell the player (through the technician perhaps) what the ratio's of protective materials are (e.g. 2 ceramic plates equals 12 layers of Kevlar.) And then, you could mention in the description of a bullet the amount of layers it can penetrate, so you can calculate which bullet to use against which armor. (Though I know it will always be HP = non- to light-armored, FMJ/AP=medium- to heavy-armored, it would still provide immersion and style, and you only need to add some text to the bullet descriptions.)

Finally, the hardest, psy protection. There is not even a remotely resembling equivalent IRL, but I would suggest the same as darthg64, to work with the Hertz of your neural oscillations, or the Tesla's of the psy-field.

Edited by: NadeTheThird

trojanuch
trojanuch Gameplay lead
Mar 5 2013, 12:05pm Anchor
Someone wrote:Toxicity could be expressed with one of the toxicity scales, though I don't think class VII= carcinogenic really matters in the goddamn Zone.
Anyway, the toxic anomalies are also caustic, so I would include the pH-level of the base you are taking to counteract the acidic chemicals. Lower bases can only neutralize low levels of acid.

Well - this could work, but situation has changed a little from vanilla for gameplay / balance reasons.

We've basically diversified damage type inflicted by 'acid outbursts' and 'toxic field':
- acid outburts (Fruit Punch anoms) now give the same damage type as fire anomalies (this damage type has been renamed to 'acid / fire')
- toxic field (aura) is now the only source of old 'acidic' damage which has now been renamed to 'toxicity'

(this is mainly because we wanted certain breathing equipment to be very capable at reducing toxic damage and it was absurd that they also protected from acid outbursts which go all over your body)

So what we need is specific scale for toxicity and protection from it - this LC50 seems very clear and usable to me. But maybe there's something better?

Someone wrote:Stamina could be expressed by adrenaline uptake. A shot of adrenalin typically contains 500 or 1000 micrograms of adrenaline, a can of Red Bull (8 fluid Oz) causes the release of about 400 micrograms adrenaline, a cup of tea about 175 µg, and a soda can 150 µg.

This is an awesome idea - I think exacly what we need - thx :) I only wonder what engine will say to 'µg' entry (I bet for no-log crashes but we'll see...) - netherless I should be able to work on this.

Someone wrote:The unit for thermal resistance (...)

Thats still the least known part - as said above we would need a more general 'protective index' for clothing which could also affect both: resistance to fire and acid. If nothing is found in rl - this single property could have a 'made up' unit, fictionally established exlusively for the purpose of Zone and its anomalies.

Someone wrote:As for damage protection (...)

We'll add info on armor class from the RL scale to all armors and helmets descriptions - this is settled. What we need thou is something that could be set up for:
- damage / pain reduction of drugs - for ex -- spoiler -- 'morphine shot' which we have created needs a unit that could describe its level of pain reduction
- damage reduction of armor attachements and artifacts - for ex -- spoiler -- our 'kevlar plates' requires a unit (preferably in 1-100 scale) that could describe its level of damage reduction

Its tricky, I know - and we're in the middle of discussing it inside the team as well.

Edited by: trojanuch

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K.E.V.L.A.R.
K.E.V.L.A.R. Сталкер
Mar 5 2013, 12:30pm Anchor

There's measure unit for thermal insulation for clothing (clo), but it's for protection from cold, not heat. But thermal protection is still sort of insulation.

En.wikipedia.org

Edited by: K.E.V.L.A.R.

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Swirekster
Swirekster Twisted Insurrection - concept artist
Mar 5 2013, 1:09pm Anchor

also Kevlar=/////////=steel/ceramic plate.

pure kevlar are good against pistol bullets and shrapnels but do nothing against shots from rifles with sharp-top ammunition.
Steel/ceramic plates will dull those projectiles to dull-pistol-like projectiles and even if stell/ceramic itself wont stop them- the kevlar plates under will (or not :D )

i own lvl3 steel plate and it should stop or dull ak47 projectiles, but stopping power should hurt my body anyway...

The best armour is to not be shot :D

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--> Youtube.com

Mar 5 2013, 1:35pm Anchor

Does this help for fire resistance? En.wikipedia.org not for clothing, anyway :3 , setting a melting point or class rating seems good to me

Edited by: marsalandrei

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Mar 5 2013, 1:42pm Anchor

For termal protection i found this:
I coppied this from a PDF about LNG fires: 5th page here

  • 37.5 kW/m2 Sufficient to cause damage to process equipment
  • 25.0 kW/m2 The minimum energy required to ignite wood at indefinitely long exposure (nonpiloted)
  • 12.5 kW/m2 The minimum energy required for piloted ignition of wood, and melting of plastic tubing. This value is typically used as a fatality number
  • 9.5 kW/m2 Sufficient to cause pain in 8 seconds and 2nd degree burns in 20 seconds.
  • 4.0 kW/m2 Sufficient to cause pain to personnel if unable to reach cover within 20 seconds. However, blistering of skin (second degree burns) is likely; 0% lethality
  • 1.6 kW/m2 Will cause no discomfort for long exposure

ALLSO:For some reason i have forgot towrite it down but to clear things up those sievert values are divided to a day :D

i might missunderstood what trojanuch wrote: when i read mSv/sec i automatically assumed that while eating you suffer x mSv every second xD its fine if its meant the whole meal im just not sure thats why i wrote it down ^^

Edit: How am i allways the one who gets the grey-on-white comment theme? xD
Edit No.2: didn't saw that D.E.X.T.O.M. have allready addressed the termal stuff :D

Edited by: GabeTheKid

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Mar 5 2013, 1:53pm Anchor

I'm glad you like the stamina thing, it seemed most logical to use adrenaline so you could apply the same unit to both adrenaline shots and energy drinks, and any possible suit addons. (The numbers were unfindable on the internet, so I calculated the amount of adrenaline that caffeine releases myself. Feel free to message me if you need help calculating that stuff, it's all very hard to find on the internet.)

Also, I've done some more research, and there isn't a single unit that properly applies to burn protection: the closest is thermal insulation, and that is unusable. But I found something interesting, and related: heat capacity (the measurable physical quantity that shows the amount of heat required to change the temperature of a substance by a given amount). So, it's a long shot, but you could express the heat capacity of your suits (and their cooling systems) in Joules per Kelvin, or J per K.

And lastly, the damage protection... Well, first of all, there is no measurement for pain since they are all scales, but you I guess you could use the NRS-11, if you wanted to... To me, it seems most logical to divide the medications into their respective groups, (e.g. 4 classes of pain killers: NSAID's ->paracetamol->opiates->local anaesthetics), and if extra info is needed, perhaps the amount of active doses it contains (e.g. 500 mg paracetamol). (remember,these are just examples and suggestions)

But secondly... Well, I hate to repeat myself, but if you need a unit for your kevlar plates, I would go for the number of layers.You would only need to compare about three or four basic units (like reinforced leather -> kevlar - > ceramic), and the amount of layers of leather, kevlar or ceramic plates would allow the player to compare his suit to others. (for example... I find a suit with 24 layers of kevlar, and another suit with 12 layers of kevlar and a ceramic plate. I also know that in the game, a ceramic plate equals about 6 layers of kevlar (actually, I have no idea, never worked with bp vests). So, suit 1 has 24 layers, and suit 2 has 12 + 6 = 18 layers worth of armor. So basically armor 1 is the better choice.)

Now, I'm going to look into psy... But I have little hope, since the whole noosphere thing is made up from scratch... Damn you, GSC, and your excellent creativity and originality!

I suggest you guys make something up for the psy protection, maybe name it after someone you want to honor, like a friend or co-modder who died during development.

Mar 5 2013, 2:49pm Anchor

who would have thought that armor will be the hardest to measure by one unit.. :D

+Mother of God!
"For every additional sievert past 1, the chance of death within 30 days increases by about 15%, adding to a base rate of around 10%. This means that about 25% of all people die within 30 days of exposure to 2 sieverts, around 40% of people die after exposure to 3 sieverts, and about 55% of people die after exposure to 4 sieverts. At 6 sieverts, the death rate is 90%, which increases quickly to 100%. The primary causes of death are internal bleeding or immune system failure that rapidly gives way to lethal infection. Hair is lost, people are rendered sterile, bone marrow is destroyed, and recovery can take years and may never be complete."

Edited by: GabeTheKid

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ShotgunSurgeon
ShotgunSurgeon Firearms Fiend
Mar 5 2013, 3:14pm Anchor

For Psy protection I would just go with Psionic Hertz (PsiHz? PHz?)
I second the idea of stamina = mg/µg of adrenaline
My rough math (below) says that the plates used in NIJ level III ballistic (few things in the world are bulletproof) armor equate to ~39.5 layers of kevlar
IIIA will stop 240Gr @ 1400 FPS = 1044 Foot-Pounds
III will stop 150Gr @ 2750 FPS = 2518 Foot-Pounds
III is 28 layers of Kevlar (less if using Spectra)
1044/28= 37.285...
(2518-1044)/37=39.570...
Of course, structural difference (fabric vs solid plate) plays a MASSIVE role in what it can stop. III will stop a .308 (7.62x51), but 2.5 IIIA's won't (hollowpoints might differ)
Good luck guys.

Edited by: ShotgunSurgeon

Mar 5 2013, 4:54pm Anchor

En.wikipedia.org (this should have the information you need for damage protection. but it is wikipedia so its not always 100% trustworthy. also its only showing that it will stop the bullet. Not the impact negotiation.

Edited by: FatherDiodor

Mar 5 2013, 5:21pm Anchor

Finding a realistic unit for the psy-protection won't be easy, but if there was some way of relating it to synapse strength or resistance, that might offer a more authentic reasoning behind it. I tried looking for some definiton of neural network integrity or efficiency, since I imagine that is where the psy-fields do their damage in the game, but I couldn't find anything useful.

I think darth64s suggestion is the best one to use, aka using some measure of magnetic field strength, even though the effects described are probably not as immediate as the ones from STALKERs psy fields.

Mar 5 2013, 5:22pm Anchor

You should put the weight of the projectile and speed. i.e. (reading this of a box of 7.62x39 FMJ rounds) Bullet weight (grains) 122. Muzzle velocity (FPS) 2396.
This is this kind of thing one would want to know about the bullets he is shooting. I always check the different brands to see if some are better then others depending on what I'm using them for and if I should be paying for a more expensive brand which turns out to be almost exactly the same as the cheaper one.

Mar 5 2013, 5:27pm Anchor

ive roaming the internet for quite a while to find out how powerfull an AC EMF has to be to be able to deal damage in a short period of time, but i didnt came across any hints. :S I only found regulations that are way below that and with a 10 Tesla static field you can lift a frog off the ground :D

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Mar 6 2013, 2:00am Anchor

[trojanuch]
[We'll add info on armor class from the RL scale to all armors and
helmets descriptions - this is settled. What we need thou is something
that could be set up for:

- damage / pain reduction of drugs - for ex -- spoiler -- 'morphine
shot' which we have created needs a unit that could describe its level
of pain reduction

- damage reduction of armor attachements and artifacts - for ex --
spoiler -- our 'kevlar plates' requires a unit (preferably in 1-100
scale) that could describe its level of damage reduction]
There is no real measurment of pain, because it is a subjective experiance. Patients are always asked to describe the pain and to give it a nuber from 1 to 10. Where 1 is almost no pain and 10 a unbearable pain.

N.Aaroe
N.Aaroe MDT Lead
Mar 6 2013, 11:44am Anchor

We really appreciate all of this input and dedicated commenting from you all :thumbup:
Trojanuch is our manager of this aspect and he will be the person to decide what to use and what not.
I just wanted to express my gratitude towards this feedback.

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Mar 6 2013, 11:47am Anchor

RADIATION
What about using Grays(Gy) instead of siwerts?
0.5-2Gy - 0% death probability, small immunologic system weakness
2–4 Gy - 25% death probability, immunologic system weakness, anaemia and diathesis haemorrhagica(purpura)
4–8 Gy - 50-100% death probability, as higher + diaherra(with bleeding) + other nasty symptoms.
et cetera et cetera
Oh I've just found article on wiki, I didn't see it but should be interesting.
En.wikipedia.org

I remember there were roentgens in narodnaya solyanka(at least with DMX) you could look into that too.

Mar 6 2013, 6:36pm Anchor
NadeTheThird wrote:
Now, I'm going to look into psy... But I have little hope, since the whole noosphere thing is made up from scratch... Damn you, GSC, and your excellent creativity and originality!

Actually I believe that the concept of the noosphere wasn't made up by GSC it's actually a theory based on the work developed by an Ukrainian geochemist En.wikipedia.org, Noosphere.

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