Full concept MODIFICATION of S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Call of Pripyat that touches every game aspect including textures, sfx, music, weapons, A.I., items, weather, mutants, difficulty and much more!

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Correct real life terms (Mods : MISERY : Forum : General subjects : Correct real life terms) Locked
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Mar 7 2013, 8:44am Anchor

Holy fuck, my mind is blown! I always thought they made it up themselves... Thanks for the article, interesting read.

trojanuch
trojanuch Gameplay lead
Mar 7 2013, 4:40pm Anchor

OK - guys this is all looking really great - thank you all again :)

I am already in the middle of implementing ideas posted here - I am not revealing what I have founf the most suitable to use in-game - I want it to be a little suprise.

Now - here are some more stuffs left to cover:

- bleeding resistance / bleeding stopping - how much blood do we have to loose to die? how much blood would Degtyarev need to be loosing to die in 5 minutes?

- property of electrical anomalies - this should be approached from this direction as once we know what voltages / curents are being produced by such anoms - I will setup protection values for our 'surge damper' / armors accordingly.
So - I think that these anoms should be considered to be 'of minimum level capable of killing / almost killing an un-protected human being in single outburst'. Any suggestions?

Edited by: trojanuch

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Mar 7 2013, 6:37pm Anchor

Blood loss


  • Class I Hemorrhage involves up to 15% of blood volume. There is typically no change in vital signs and fluid resuscitation is not usually necessary.
  • Class II Hemorrhage involves 15-30% of total blood volume. A
    patient is often tachycardic (rapid heart beat) with a narrowing of the
    difference between the systolic and diastolic blood pressures. The body
    attempts to compensate with peripheral vasoconstriction.
    Skin may start to look pale and be cool to the touch. The patient may
    exhibit slight changes in behavior. Volume resuscitation with
    crystalloids (Saline solution or Lactated Ringer's solution) is all that is typically required. Blood transfusion is not typically required.
  • Class III Hemorrhage involves loss of 30-40% of circulating blood volume. The patient's blood pressure drops, the heart rate increases, peripheral hypoperfusion (shock), such as capillary refill worsens, and the mental status worsens. Fluid resuscitation with crystalloid and blood transfusion are usually necessary.
  • Class IV Hemorrhage involves loss of >40% of circulating
    blood volume. The limit of the body's compensation is reached and
    aggressive resuscitation is required to prevent death.

This system is basically the same as used in the staging of hypovolemic shock.
Individuals in excellent physical and cardiovascular
shape may have more effective compensatory mechanisms before
experiencing cardiovascular collapse. These patients may look
deceptively stable, with minimal derangements in vital signs, while
having poor peripheral perfusion. Elderly patients or those with chronic
medical conditions may have less tolerance to blood loss, less ability
to compensate, and may take medications such as betablockers that can
potentially blunt the cardiovascular response. Care must be taken in the
assessment of these patients.
from En.wikipedia.org

Mar 7 2013, 6:51pm Anchor

For Electro anomalies:

Some wikipedia stuff
There is a table on this page about body reactions to Amps *EDIT: these reactionsa are to AC current
Nice video that can describe how things work

An estimated value:
for a 2 meter arc you need 2-6MV (1-3kV/mm in air depending on circumstances)
+Edit:
Under normal circumstances a static (DC) shock is harmless. Static charge can be measured in millijoules (mJ). You typically need at least 1 mJ to generate a shock you can feel, 10 to 30 mJ to make you flinch, and 1,350 mJ to kill you. Shuffling across a carpet can generate from 10 to 25 mJ, just 1 or 2 percent of a lethal jolt. You might generate more in a car, but even assuming maximum human body capacitance and low winter humidity (high humidity lets the charge leak away), you could maybe get zapped with about 300 mJ — a shock you won’t soon forget but still not fatal. That doesn’t mean there’s nothing to worry about. An electric arc is a spark. Sparks are used in auto engines to ignite fuel. Fuel is poured into racing cars during pit stops. Racing cars build up static charge while circling the track … you see where this is headed.

Its a pretty complex problem... 

For bleeding:
An adault male has roughly 6 liters of blood

40% or greater is usually considered the maximum amount of blood that an adult can loose before the body can no longer compensate. In an 80 kg adult this would be about 2.24 liters.

A Class I Hemorrhage is usually considered 15%, or less, of an adult's blood volume. In an 80 kg person this would be about 0.84 liters. At this level there are almost no signs or symptoms.

A Class II Hemorrhage is 15 to 30% loss of an adult's blood volume. In an 80 kg person this would be about 1.68 liters. At this level the heart will start to beat faster, and the person will start to look pale, and feel cool. This is the beginning stages of shock.

A Class III Hemorrhage is 30 to 40% loss of blood. In an 80 kg person this would be about 2.24 liters. At this level the heart will be beating very fast, trying to keep up with the bodies needs. The person will look very pale, and start to be confused. This person is in shock, and in trouble. Fluids are needed very quickly.

A Class IV Hemorrhage is as described above. This is usually greater than 40% and in an 80 kg adult this would be more than 2.24 liters. The body can no longer keep up with the blood loss and the person is in serious trouble. Without very fast help the person will die.

Edited by: darthg64

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Mar 9 2013, 3:20pm Anchor

This chart from XKCD might be helpful for the radiation part. It even has sources.
Imgs.xkcd.com

Mar 29 2013, 6:44pm Anchor

Radiation:
The most common unit is the microsievert. Also you can do it in rads. One rad is 0,01 sievert aprox.

Edited by: C.A.T.

Apr 4 2013, 5:14am Anchor

@C.A.T.: 4 Sievert is very rarely survivable, 8 sievert is 100% fatal (if I remember correctly).

K.E.V.L.A.R.
K.E.V.L.A.R. Сталкер
Apr 4 2013, 5:47am Anchor

Depending on the source half of those who are exposed to 4 Sv will die, almost all exposed to 10 Sv will die. For example in Chernobyl, radiation near the reactor right after the meltdown was about 300 Sv/hr. You can quickly calculate that you will reach lethal dosage in less than two minutes.

Edited by: K.E.V.L.A.R.

Apr 6 2013, 12:51pm Anchor

Salute, to the men who gave their lives to save others at Chernobyl.

May 9 2013, 1:00am Anchor

This is mostly a re-post from the thread of comments for the actual news release, but yeah. My opinion on the whole realist approach to item terminology and values and such;

While it's obvious a whole lot of thought has been put into this, it's really almost... too much? Almost boring, I would say. Short and succinct descriptions work better, especially for artifacts, to preserve that degree of ineffability that should be part and parcel for living in the Zone. To explain it is to rob it of mystery, in my opinion. Explaining that crap is fine for the scientists you encounter, but your average stalker is not gonna know the precise, accurate qualities of an artifact he plucked out of an anomaly just to sell to someone. Keep it gritty, less wordy.

This goes double for the more mundane items - I'm simply not gonna read it if it's a wall of text with technical stuff, and since I'm not the most scientifically inclined person I know I'm gonna be confused by all the new values for what items actually *do.* It looks pretty alienating, actually. I'm probably just kinda ignorant about stuff like this, though, so anyone's mileage on this will probably vary. I know the point of this whole thing is to make stuff hard, but there's only so much I can accept until it seems like the game and its systems will be actively working against me and my ability to understand whatever's happening. And that's not fun. I really don't want to read a whole technical manual just to understand why X amount of radiation would kill me, as opposed to Y amount of radiation. It's enough for me to glance at the little bars to see what provides a boost to such and such - more succinct and to the point, that way. This is pretty much the only promised feature of MISERY I've looked on without much enthusiasm; the rest of the balls-crushingly difficult stuff you've promised fills me with glee, mind you.

If this could be an optional thing (you can opt in or out during installation, I mean) then I think that would be for the best. Again, all my opinion, and I'll be the first to admit I'm not the most scientifically inclined (or interested, for that matter.)

Edited by: metroid13

May 9 2013, 5:31am Anchor
metroid13 wrote:This is mostly a re-post from the thread of comments for the actual news release, but yeah. My opinion on the whole realist approach to item terminology and values and such;

While it's obvious a whole lot of thought has been put into this, it's really almost... too much? Almost boring, I would say. Short and succinct descriptions work better, especially for artifacts, to preserve that degree of ineffability that should be part and parcel for living in the Zone. To explain it is to rob it of mystery, in my opinion. Explaining that crap is fine for the scientists you encounter, but your average stalker is not gonna know the precise, accurate qualities of an artifact he plucked out of an anomaly just to sell to someone. Keep it gritty, less wordy.

This goes double for the more mundane items - I'm simply not gonna read it if it's a wall of text with technical stuff, and since I'm not the most scientifically inclined person I know I'm gonna be confused by all the new values for what items actually *do.* It looks pretty alienating, actually. I'm probably just kinda ignorant about stuff like this, though, so anyone's mileage on this will probably vary. I know the point of this whole thing is to make stuff hard, but there's only so much I can accept until it seems like the game and its systems will be actively working against me and my ability to understand whatever's happening. And that's not fun. I really don't want to read a whole technical manual just to understand why X amount of radiation would kill me, as opposed to Y amount of radiation. It's enough for me to glance at the little bars to see what provides a boost to such and such - more succinct and to the point, that way. This is pretty much the only promised feature of MISERY I've looked on without much enthusiasm; the rest of the balls-crushingly difficult stuff you've promised fills me with glee, mind you.

If this could be an optional thing (you can opt in or out during installation, I mean) then I think that would be for the best. Again, all my opinion, and I'll be the first to admit I'm not the most scientifically inclined (or interested, for that matter.)



A 388 word long post that asks for "keeping it gritty, less wordy", very nice mate, you're a genius. (;

If you're not interested in this stuff, leave it, you don't have to read the descriptions. But your claim that most stalkers wouldn't be interested in what's actually going on, eehh... I'm not so sure. When I imagine being there I would definitely want to know what's going on and how it affects me since I'm not a suicidal psych but rather am trying to make a living (or even a fortune) there and in the end get out of there as rich and unharmed as possible.

Trikzter
Trikzter MISERY Dev. - Language King
May 9 2013, 5:35am Anchor

Oh, so I'll repost as well:

metroid13, you may have a point, but consider these facts:
1) you are a soldier with professional training, backed by Ukraine Security Service, i.e. the army,
2) Ukrainian army has outposts all over the Zone one of the purposes of which is gathering information regarding the Zone,
3) you have an important mission to accomplish, so it's understandable that your superiors wanted you to be prepared as well as possible,
4) they couldn't provide you with better-than-average equipment because this could raise suspicion, so they decided to give you all information necessary to surivive in the Zone.
And information is power (not wanting to sound trivial, oh well), and the facts and descriptions we provide in-game should be regarded precisely as a means of survival. Of course, you don't have to read it - it's up to you - but it's there for you to take advantage of.
As a side note: as you can see, artifacts have been overhauled, they have many properties to make gameplay much more interesing, so it was impossible to make them as succint as they were in vanilla.

Cheers!

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K.E.V.L.A.R.
K.E.V.L.A.R. Сталкер
May 9 2013, 6:06am Anchor

I don't think the new system is so cerebral, that it would be hard to understand. Looking beyond the measure units it's quite straight forward to see the negs and perks of various stuff. And it all adds to the immersion factor, at least from my point of view. I for one am waiting for my learning experience.

I especially like how the new artifact system looks. I've always thought the artifact system simplistic and gimmicky. "Apply Kolobok and Wrenched for insta-health-regeneration" <- now that is not very gritty :)

May 9 2013, 9:37am Anchor
erichlebt wrote:
A 388 word long post that asks for "keeping it gritty, less wordy", very nice mate, you're a genius. (;

Heh. Do as I say, not as I do. And for me that's actually kinda brief when it comes to critique, lol. Would you rather I keep things short next time and simply say "This sucks?"

Trikzter wrote:words

You probably have a legit point when it comes to the new properties - I just wonder if those properties can't be expressed more in layman's terms. I totally understand that the point of this mod is to make things hard, but there just comes a certain point where you look at it (or maybe that's just me, haha) and go "why even bother trying?"

What I like about the vanilla descriptions is that they briefly describe the artifact's appearance, its properties (in a rather vague, nebulous way that I'd expect to be passed down through stalker folklore about objects which defy casual explanation) and usually ending with an interesting anecdote connecting that artifact to the Zone around it. Stoneflower, for instance, had a short blurb where "stalkers often find it relaxing to study this artifact by campfire light." That lends a very human element to a place of alienation and unpleasantness, something I didn't find much preserved in the almost dry, new descriptions you have screenshot'd. I'm not gonna read it because it's a long block of words, but because it simply doesn't appear interesting. Again, maybe just me. This goes for items other than artifacts, naturally.

You make a great point with Degtarev's army background and all that - I'm just not sure it makes all that big a difference - do you want this all from his perspective, or from the usual stalker's? I'd find the latter more interesting, but, my opinion.

Edited by: metroid13

May 9 2013, 10:17am Anchor

metroid13

well in my opinion the new system isnt that far away from the vanilla one. if you think about it they said radiation +3 and you could guess how beneficial it is to you even though its just a number, now it says x mSv and im pretty sure if you could get comfortable with the +3 in a short time you will be able to guess the benefits from this new system too. + ive allways read the descriptions and the diary/PDA Stuff when i had to whait i.e. blowout to end or a few hours for a desired time of the day (mostly sunset, i love night hunts ^^) so longer descriptions arepretty good news for me.

On your "lend a verry human element" point i agree with you, but id advise you to read the description of the Soul artefact, it has some bits and pieces that you desire.

Edited by: darthg64

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Trikzter
Trikzter MISERY Dev. - Language King
May 9 2013, 10:35am Anchor

Thanks for your opinion. Below is just what I feel, dunno about the rest of the team.

metroid13 wrote:I just wonder if those properties can't be expressed more in layman's terms

Of course they could be but this would strip them of this scientific feel which I find really appealing. The Zone itself is as inhuman as it gets - it's the place where not only monsters dwell - so this comparably dehumanized approach only serves to magnify the misery of people sucked into the vortex of things they have no influence on. I don't want to imply that people are germs to be stepped on by higher powers - in this case the Zone - but you have to realize that the Zone does not treat you kindly and that you cannot change it. For this reason you have to try to understand it if you plan on surviving and for some people - the scientists - science is the only hope. Consider also this: the Zone is a mystery and although scientists went to great lenghts to provide some insight into its mechanisms, they still have no idea how it's possible for such a place to exist. Read through the bits regarding anomalies and you should understand what I mean.
In other words, new descriptions are "dry" for a reason - the Zone defies not only physics but also "man", and science which is the only means we have to harness the Zone does exactly the same thing - it takes away what humanity man has left. Pure misery, at least on this sorta metaphysical level.

You just cannot suit all tastes and satisfy everyone, at some point you have to choose and we think this choice fits the overall atmosphere of the mod.

Edited by: Trikzter

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May 9 2013, 11:17am Anchor
Trikzter wrote:
You just cannot suit all tastes and satisfy everyone, at some point you have to choose and we think this choice fits the overall atmosphere of the mod.

Of course! I personally disagree on this one account, but I think you guys are doing great elsewhere, so it's not as if it's a deal breaker. Just might make things a little less enticing for me, that's all.

May 9 2013, 3:05pm Anchor
metroid13 wrote:
erichlebt wrote:
A 388 word long post that asks for "keeping it gritty, less wordy", very nice mate, you're a genius. (;

Heh. Do as I say, not as I do. And for me that's actually kinda brief when it comes to critique, lol. Would you rather I keep things short next time and simply say "This sucks?"


Hey buddy, no offense intended, I just found this really amusing. What I would rather doesn't really matter (at least to you, right?). You can post comments however you like, live and let live benefits us all most I think. Again, I just wanted to point out the slight irony in your post.

Peace

ShotgunSurgeon
ShotgunSurgeon Firearms Fiend
May 9 2013, 8:28pm Anchor

One little quirk... On the previews, there are measurements like "1/9 plate of Kevlar".  If this is supposed to be realistic, then this is a big slip.  Body armor that uses Kevlar utilizes flexible sheets, and their resistance to cutting & compression is what makes them armor.  Kevlar is only hard when it is encased in fiberglass, like in a helmet.

trojanuch
trojanuch Gameplay lead
May 10 2013, 3:00am Anchor

Well - indeed this might be a little far-fetched and sort of experimental.

I have imagined that artifacts would produce some sort of 'gravitational field' around the user - this gravitational field would reduce the kinetic energy of any obejct that enters it - thus the impact energy on the user is reduced.

This reduction has to be given in some way - one of the ideas was to recalculate it into equivalent of single kevlear layer / sheet (or its fraction). So this is basically what the entry means (note that there is a 'eq.' in the end).

Now - we have two options:
1. we add above explanation somewhere so that its clear on how to read it
2. we change the 'kevlar layer eq.' system to sth else like x% or sth like that

Suggestions?

Edited by: trojanuch

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ShotgunSurgeon
ShotgunSurgeon Firearms Fiend
May 10 2013, 4:20pm Anchor

Thanks. I say keep the layer system, my poorly worded complaint was that Kevlar is not utilized as solid plates in body armor, but rather a series (20/+) of fabric sheets bound together, like a fabric veneer stack.  Having fractions of a single sheet would be like wearing an extra shirt. So maybe change it form 1/9, 1/4, 1/2, to 4 layers, 9 layers, 19 layers, etc.  remember, most level II armor is rated for 9x19mm and has layers in the mid 20's. Thanks for the reply.

Edited by: ShotgunSurgeon

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