Some Balance Suggestions Thread - Red Alert 3 Paradox mod for C&C: Red Alert 3

After some playtime with 92,here are some balance suggestions.
Allies:
Longbow Liberator: - Four of them can kill an MCV in one run,which makes the Century redundant for all purposes outside paradropping.
Damage against structures reduced by around %20.
Grand Collider:
Cost increase to 3000,it oneshots even Assault Strikers.
Century Bomber:
7 infantry slots for paradropping.
Mesofortress:
Damage increased up to the point where it one shots a Stingray in one run (not all ammo,just the burst of missiles),it can only get it to half HP now. Could use a bit of health decreasing if done so. Currently,it is just too weak for the 3k spent for it.
Assault Striker: It is no weaker than an Apoc when it is full of Javs,and it will only get worse when Rocketeers are up.
Cost increase to 2000.

Confederates:
Longbow MK1: Definetely OP right now, four of them can kill an MCV in one run,which is a job for the Skyfortress. Yet they do their role very good so,they only need a bit tweaking without making them completely UP.
Cost increased to 1500.
Health reduced by a bit (they're harassers,so they shouldn't have much HP)
Damage against buildings reduced by %20. (So it takes 5 Longbows instead of 4 to kill an MCV in one run)

These are all the ideas I have for now. Please feel free to post yours.

We are taking into consideration all of your suggestions, but the Century Bomber suggestion is getting a bit more than what you suggested. It's going to have ten slots instead of five to help promote troop drops. We upped it to a multiple of five to make it... better.

Thanks for this nice feedback Darky!

Oh and btw, flying infantry can never, will never garrison anything. Just saying.

Edited by: R3ven

R3ven, remember Rocketeers can land. It's a big part of what makes them so powerful.

R3ven wrote: We are taking into consideration all of your suggestions, but the Century Bomber suggestion is getting a bit more than what you suggested. It's going to have ten slots instead of five to help promote troop drops. We upped it to a multiple of five to make it... better.

Thanks for this nice feedback Darky!

Oh and btw, flying infantry can never, will never garrison anything. Just saying.

You're welcome.

Edited by: DarkyPwnz

The Mesofortress is extremely powerful for how early it is, imo.

Galgus wrote: The Mesofortress is extremely powerful for how early it is, imo.

Extremely powerful? It is a joke for a so-called experimental unit,and 3k cost means you won't get it until you have like the equalivent of late T2.

It slaughters vehicles, I've seen the thing in action.

Yes, its expensive, and yes, rushing it may backfire if the enemy isn't centrally using vehicles, but I think the thing is fine.

It needs to still be countered by ground vehicle AA, among other things.

Galgus wrote: It slaughters vehicles, I've seen the thing in action.

Yes, its expensive, and yes, rushing it may backfire if the enemy isn't centrally using vehicles, but I think the thing is fine.

It needs to still be countered by ground vehicle AA, among other things.

I saw and actually used the Mesofortress plenty of times so I know what I'm talking about as well.

No,it doesn't. It is too weak for an experimental unit. Look at the Particle Expeller,it shreds any vehicle before you know it. It is fragile,less mobile so I don't expect Mesofortress to be as powerful as it against vehicles but for a plane that is so expensive and hardly can kill a Power Plant in one run,it lacks the anti-armor power. A Confederate Longbow can kill like 3 tanks average in one run,which makes it so cost effective. If the Meso can kill a Stringray or so per burst,that means like 4 tank kills per run average,which is somewhat decent for a 3k worth and rather-fragile-for-its-size tank hunter.

The Particle Expeller, at least earlier, was a bit overpowered because of strafing.

Another thing- experimental aircraft don't really have the risk factor of the ground vehicles.

They nerfed the Mesofortress against structures because it was just too much power for one unit- and once upon a time it hit hard enough to kill a Confederate MCV and Service Pad in one run.

Keep in mind the Mesofortress has large splash damage- and while the Mesofortress it may be expensive, tanks are typically 1000 each.

Its not really that fragile either, imo.

EDIT: My attempt to test it was foiled by computer crashes I have been getting with Paradox, but if memory serves the Longbow runs out of ammo quite quickly- are you sure it wasn't hitting tank rear armor?

Edited by: Galgus

Galgus wrote: The Particle Expeller, at least earlier, was a bit overpowered because of strafing.

Another thing- experimental aircraft don't really have the risk factor of the ground vehicles.

They nerfed the Mesofortress against structures because it was just too much power for one unit- and once upon a time it hit hard enough to kill a Confederate MCV and Service Pad in one run.

Keep in mind the Mesofortress has large splash damage- and while the Mesofortress it may be expensive, tanks are typically 1000 each.

Its not really that fragile either, imo.

EDIT: My attempt to test it was foiled by computer crashes I have been getting with Paradox, but if memory serves the Longbow runs out of ammo quite quickly- are you sure it wasn't hitting tank rear armor?

DarkyPwnz wrote: It is fragile,less mobile

Yes I know,I said this about the expeller. What you just said doesn't make any sense really,as you're talking about everything I've already talked about. It is only natural that Meso is weaker than Expeller because it is less fragile,more mobile etc etc. I also said that it is normal that it doesn't hit structures much. Splash doesn't mean jack against anyone worth his salt,there is a button called "X" you know... My point is,Mesofortress' niche is heavy anti-armor duty,which it fails at. I never wanted it to kill structures,I just wanted it to kill tanks and do it properly.

Its pretty large splash, and you can't do things like chase or flee while split up without a lot more micro than "x".

It already kills tanks as well as it needs to, imo.

Its powerful, but not unstoppable.

Here's a suggestion:

Requiring the Tier 2 tech tree in order to either advance to Tier X or Tier 3, one in which you can build experimentals and powerful aircraft or conventional tanks and vehicles.

This would prevent rushing to a certain extent as you now have to spend money and time teching up to tier 2 to get to the powerful experimentals (although before the meso nerf a rush although annoying but not gamebreaking, CAN be defeated, the meso feels like its taking the Confed longbow's actual purpose in harassment by being able to damage vehicles and not destroy them in a run.

@Galgus: and I thought I was the only one crashing when opening up Par

The point of tier-X is that it is early power, with downsides.

I don't crash opening Paradox up, my computer randomly shuts itself down while playing it.

Galgus,the Mesofortress really doesn't do any noticable damage when judged by its experimental status and price tag. It needs buffs.

I just think if Tier 2 was a prerequisite, it would make a more balanced suggestion on whether you should go experimental or conventional vehicles with the means of countering each other. Having Tier X as an early power would most probably get them more nerfed and nerfed because it is too imba for the amount they need to advance to that Tier with instant access to incredibly powerful units that one would have trouble if they choose to stay in Tier 2.

I think having TX as an alternative to T3 takes away part of the point of TX - As I understand it, it's supposed to be easy to get to and powerful, but overpriced, overspecialised, fragile and prone to destroying everything nearby if they're killed. T3 on the other hand, is supposed to be harder to get to, but reliable and cost-effective. Though I wouldn't mind if some of the more powerful TX units needed T2 to unlock.

Tetrakale wrote: I think having TX as an alternative to T3 takes away part of the point of TX - As I understand it, it's supposed to be easy to get to and powerful, but overpriced, overspecialised, fragile and prone to destroying everything nearby if they're killed. T3 on the other hand, is supposed to be harder to get to, but reliable and cost-effective. Though I wouldn't mind if some of the more powerful TX units needed T2 to unlock.

How about only giving all heavy aircraft the prerequisite of Tier 2? Although I would like all TX to be T2 but it seems that the general consensus is that of that TX being an early and easy to get to Tier. Cutting any units from the experimental workshop would be a terrible nerf as the units are all purely specialised and not as maneuverable and powerful as the heavy aircraft which is the main cause of why a rush to TX is imba.

There is a reason it is specified in a different category,the Tier X is not supposed to be on the same route as the other tiers so it doesn't make sense to make it connected Tier 2. Even through its early,the price tags make it impossible for putting them into actual use. If you die to two Particle Expellers,you deserve to die anyway. Might as well re-view the tutorial or what not. As I said in the original post,the Meso could get an health nerf while having more power; so it lives up to its Tier. It is retardedly weak now.

Edited by: DarkyPwnz

Along with the cost increase, the grand collider needs to shoot faster, it's missing kirovs.

Also, I think that tx air units should have a little more health, but also have risks while dying. Preferably, the effect should change depending on which way they die.

Mesofortress, for an example:

Shot down by fighters: 30% drop all payload at once 30% chance nothing 30% explosion on crash 10% Air grand collider explosion

Shot down by Ground-AA: 30% Proton Cloud created (a cloud that does damage to fighters 30% nothing 30% Debris cause positive cover to infantry 10% debris fall down, causing several proton explosions (not as powerful as grand collider)

Tier-X air already has plenty of health- and about the only reliably negative effect that could happen would involve it flying back to base to do it- since its probably near enemy units, not Allied units when it dies.

That's the point of the different effects depending on the way they die.

If a mesofortress is killed by ground AA, it is probably at the enemies base, so the effects hurt air units more often, which the allied player probably has.

Alternatively, when the meso is killed by Air-AA, then it is probably returning to base, so the effects hurt ground units more often, which is what's probably at the allied base.

Explode on the spot effects generally don't hurt aircraft as much as vehicles because they have a much easier team spreading out while fighting.

Unless you happen to have multiple Mesofortresses for some reason.

When Mesofortresses go down, some of the potential effects include a self-sustaining proton reaction, an in-air explosion, and a sudden EMP blast.

About all of those seem far more likely to be a benefit for the use than a downside- after all, the units that killed the fortress are near it, not the user's units.

Something like the Achilles automatically turning back to base to blow up its production structure is an actual downside- something not reliant on your units somehow being near the highly mobile and easy to scatter aircraft.

Edited by: Galgus

Well downside is, you'll need to be more aggressive with your expensive experimentals and knowing that they might explode or etc when destroyed which could potentially set off a deadly chain reaction and this gives you a few options:

1) Send your experimentals to the enemy or close to the enemy in hopes that your opponent will be caught in the explosion which isn't helpful at all unless it is a Fusion Torchtank

or

2) Try to take advantage of the long range and power of the experimentals and try to keep your distance but has the potential to create a chain reaction or seriously damage your units when one of them destroyed.

so either way is has its advantage and disadvantages unless of course its the lone meso with the intention to harass and suicide for the cause of the allies, with the revelation of the potential hazards that can happen when a meso goes down kinda justifies its cost(if used properly) unless of course you don't have enough micro to control your other aircraft working with the meso and rage when your entire airforce is downed by one exploding mesofortress.