Allow me to begin this post by saying we believe in the freedom of speech, the right to share information and be creative. We have enjoyed watching mod developers push the boundaries for years and create amazing content, and shall always do this.
However, recently a mod on the site called School Shooter: North American Tour 2012 has been getting quite a bit of mainstream press due to the controversial nature of the content. It seems that people sit on two sides of the fence on this one. There are those that believe the makers of this mod should have the right to make whatever they want, while there are others that believe it is disgusting and crosses the line.
We sit on both sides, on one hand we find the content to be deliberately offensive and in poor taste, but on the other we also feel people should have the right to be creative and share what they want on a community / developer run site, and we shouldn't have the right to dictate what is/isn't allowed.
The challenge faced is we are currently receiving quite a bit of threatening mail as people believe we are the creators, supporters and makers of this content. I want to stress that this absolutely isn't the case. We have never encouraged or made any content, we disagree with the mod but at the same time believe in freedom of speech and the unique ability modders and indie developers should have to create games (good-or-bad) about topics, issues and events considered risky or taboo.
There is also quite a bit of confusion from non-gaming press, who state that games like this are the reason why all bad things occur, spreading misinformation and fear. As a result of this confusion and hate, at the moment we feel the best course of action is to remove the mod. We don't want the hard work of thousands of other mod developers to be threatened by people misunderstanding this one mod/game, and assuming all others are like it.
Edit: We did contact the developers with no reply back in August 2010, chances are this would have ended differently if they had replied.
Way to cave you guys, pretty lame.
There was nothing unlawful about the School Shooter mod, so any 'threats' issued to you were just knee jerk social reactionaries with little value for their free time.
If the School Shooter mod was worth anything, it was watching the social white knights try to infringe on constitutional rights, while other fictional atrocities presented in other forms of media go untouched.
You claim that you support freedom of speech but actions speak louder then words, and whether or not you believe it in doesn't change that your actions don't support the belief.
Oh and if you think that this is going to shut up the journalistic crybabies then you're sorely mistaken. By caving to their shallow demands you've only given them power, power that they'll be more inclined to use now that they have it. Expect to see these kinds of complaints more frequently now that you've caved to this kind of foolery.
we've opened the comments because we feel people will be quite vocal and disagree with us and we welcome that. we are a community run site and will always attempt to do the best by our users. In this instance our primary concern is that this mod will tarnish the name of many others, as people just label gamers and modders in general as violent disrespectful individuals, which isn't right.
At what cost are you protecting your credibility amongst uninformed idiots? You are a Mod Database, people upload mods and you host them. Your affiliation with School Shooter or any other mod ends there. Plain and simple. If people want to hold you or anyone else affiliated with this site accountable then what they need to be informed, and it's not your responsibility to spell it out for them. Making allowances for the stupidity of others will hurt us in the long run.
What you are saying to the public by doing this, is that you are acknowledging ridiculous claims that video games are causes of influence for acts of hatred like actual school shootings. You have compromised the validity of all shooters or games with violent content by doing this, because by proxy any game featuring violence should logically be an influence for crime.
In this critical hour where many people are watching, I was hoping that you would make the decision that would benefit gaming as a medium, or to at least bring it on a level comparable to other forms of media like movies or books, but you let me down.
"You have compromised the validity of all shooters or games with violent content by doing this, because by proxy any game featuring violence should logically be an influence for crime."
Amen to that. In the old days the "Funda-mental-ists" attacked books as a source of a violent society, then they moved on to movies/video nasties. They move with the times and now it's video games that get the brunt of their idiocy. Meanwhile there are hundreds of homicidal killers in jails across the world who claim "god made me do it", but I never hear any mention of banning religion, which in my opinion would make the world a better place.
I personally wouldn't even play this mod, but I'm sure a lot of people would get enjoyment from it. And yes, I'm sure it would offend some people but life's like that, deal with it. Over the past few years there have been a slew of WW2 games featuring the player killing German soldiers, is that any less offensive?
To sum up, bad move MODDB.
I agree with the majority of you guys here. lol damn some of you guys should be arguing this **** against retards that is the mass media. Uninformed idiots who see one bad influence, automatically assume the whole structure has gone sour. If videos games honestly made people into violent psychopathic maniacs, then I'd say more than 1/3 of the population of US would be mass murdering the living **** out of people by now. But there you have it, the only case in which we actually DO have video games becoming bad influences on people are indeed EXTREMELY RARE CASES. Ignorant conservative retards like Jack Thompson fail to see this and also fail to even bother to do the most minimal research. So pretty much MODDB is covering their ***** in hopes that the media and other bitching uninformed idiots will simply GO AWAY. Have fun with that.
I can't help, but agree.
I can understand why it was taken down and I personally found the mod in bad taste, but it should not have been taken down.
I hope this did not set a precedent. If someone wants to get rid of mod is all they have to do is complain enough and Moddb will oblige?
The challenge is these complaints are not coming from ModDB members or even people in the games industry. They are coming from parents, and others who thought it was vile and twisted.
First Id like to say: Black Ops was getting negative feedback for "Voletile content" by many reviewers. Did Treyarch or Activision shut it down? NO.
2nd Id say that: Media twists it all around, but they arent superpowerfull. What ModDB should have done is state the trueness of the mod, correcting the media. They would have to take up what ModDB says and probably apologize for their ignorance. Never succumb to others, and stand proud for what you believe in. Agreed, bad move indeed.
Thirdly: There is only one thing you can really tell "Parents" and other social high people who disagree with these things. "**** off." Tell them to understand before making stupid goddamn threats agianst a small mod. A MOD. As others stated players have murdered dozenions of russians, germans, aliens, zombies, mexicans and middle-easters. Somewhat US soldiers and slightly brittish ones. But if you make a goddamn game where purpose is to murder most US citizens or others alike, then you get critizised the **** out of. GTA4 is an example. Much bad reviews there for the "unneccecary voilence." JESUS.
I agree with you!
Does USA think it's better than other countries?
No one took down Call Of Duty:Modern warfare 2 because you killed russians,but if you were killing americans HOOOOOOO Boy there would be a thousand people complaining about it
in the same game (MW2) they go to brazil(which is where i live) and kill
Brazilians!
did i complain about it?Did any other brazilians complain about it?
no...
Saw is vile,twited,waaay more gory and scary and yet they're parents let their kids watch it,then why are they getting their panties in a twist because of a game?
Parents also let their kids play Saw:the videogame
They also let them play GTA
they don't complain about mods where you worship the devil or kill cops but they are complaining about THIS?
io could do the same thing with modded guns,a school map and Half Life 2 models!
And heck yeah i did!
then why in hell are parents complaining about this?
Videogames don't make people violent,Their Fear of violence makes them bring out the weapons,the fear of such weapons causes wars
a game would never damage someone's mind
lol you caved
how many cryin no life parents attacked the GTA game franchise? millions (not 10 or 20 like this case ****** millions)
GTA is not only NOT dead but is even making ANOTHER game to add to its belt
(note i know the game is deved by rockstar gaming)
Though I found the school shooter mod a frankly rather pathetic concept I didn't at any point comment on it's page or anywhere else about my opinion because in all honesty thats all the mod and its creators were after. A bit of hatred to bolster their deficient ego's (take ego as an innuendo if you must) the best thing to do with people looking for that kind of attention is to ignore them but unfortunately the mainstream media thrives on giving these idiots the attention they desire. Considering that television already has a vested interest in making games look bad (because games are constantly stealing their audience by being a lot more interesting) its not surprising that they take any opportunity to make a fuss and start tarring all mods and games with the same brush.
So well done moddb for not letting some pathetic attention seekers misuse freedom of speech to make trouble for the rest of us.
(and as for the school shooter developers, just save up, buy a really big car and drive round and round, it'll give your 'egos' the same extension without causing trouble for all the real developers out there.)
We should just wait for a new medium of entertainment, then everyone will move on to hating that instead of videogames.
On a more serious note, yeah, they've opened another door to the 'games are ebil )))' mentality, regardless that games generally reduce stress, and the few people who /might/ cause problems from playing say, GTA, had pretty big problems in the first place.
How the hell can you compare a ****** troll mod that doesn't even care to create their own assets to Grand Theft Auto?
it was in the codeing stage >>
They don't even have a coder, DERP
@holdenmclure
And a mod that rips off HL2 assets without any resemblance of skill or dedication to anything other than trolling moves the gaming medium forward, how?
Somehow, you're convinced that the School-shooter mod is something other than kiddos that don't know how to use Hammer trying to become as famous as possible with as little skill and work as possible. They aren't even standing behind their own work as individuals because most of them are "Anonymous".
Again, how, specifically, does this mod move the gaming industry forward?
Holdmcclure:
You say you defend freedom of speech, but willingly censor me as I post on your mod's wall about your defense of the School Shooter mod. Why is that?
Why did you censor me, when you should be defending my right to speak, even if you disagree with me?
I didn't delete your comment you fuckknuckle, your comment recieved so many downvotes that it got buried and you have to click 'view' to see it, which is something you should expect when you go to random persons ModDB pages and tell them you're not downloading their mod because you're so buttfrustrated that people defend freedom of speech.
Hatred is more dangerous than freedom: that's why Intense had to do what he did.
It was the right choice, media can make your life hell. It's not worth it for a single mod.
(buried)
And its not right to yield, when big brother says so.
Its like... being a bitch, who is abot the get ****** while options being: a) **** b) ****.
When did "Big Brother" say so?
Last I checked Intense made his decision of his of free will.
"this mod will tarnish the name of many others"
I am willing to be tarnished for standing up for freedom of speech and expression. This mod is in poor taste, but it should be allowed to exist. Now it will continue to exist elsewhere but I think you guys removed this because it looks bad on you.
We as a communinity do not need protecting, Video Games still get **** the world over whether they are offensive or not. I can understand Moddb wishing to protect itself (and I support that right) but please do not put that under the guise of protecting the individuals, we can handle ourselves.
(buried)
MOD DB = attention *****.
All Intense is trying to say is I WANT PUBLICITY by shutting this down LOOK AT ME!.
on the front of the news paper people will see MOD DB takes action against i quote "MURDERING SIMULATORS"
Talk about Biting the Hand that feed's you, Intense.
You made a bold yet stupid move trying to attract publicity for your actions but yet setting a bar for the imagination of all Developers, And will this be the end? or will they push us back even further.
They have 1 victory why not take it further?
*facepalm*
The best, most sensible reply here :] congratulations!
Well, there goes my chances for Postal: Remixed getting on the front page.
Why the hell do you care about what people think about gamers and modders? That's irrelevant.
Chalk me up as disgusted by the way you caved on this. Whether this was a "troll mod", as some have asserted, or not is absolutely irrelevant. In the end, you acted contrary to interests the modding and gaming community at large, whatever your intentions. Your action is more of a detriment to gaming and modding than anything anyone, no matter how offensive, could put in a mod.
No, you may not have drowned puppies or starved children, but I am still outraged by this stupid, self-serving move and the ensuing lame excuse, both of which smack of blatant hypocrisy. I notice the thread has a report button- I am half-tempted to click it; since you're so worried about hurting everyone's delicate sensibilities, I guess you would have to delete this thread too if someone found it offensive. Way to royally screw up guys. I am resisting the urge to tell you how I *really* feel about you and your asinine stunt, colorful names and all, but if I did it might offend you, and then my post would have to be deleted. Now there's precedent, thanks to you. >:(
Good on you guys for taking this disgusting, abhorrent mod down. There are some very sick, twisted people in this world and to call something like this "entertainment" is simply wrong.
but you are perfect? god like to point the right direction?
The question is, was the mod downloadable before it got taken down?
I agree with the thing about caving in to the crybabies only gives them power, but how the hell could you possibly think there is nothing wrong with a game called school shooter? although this is the first I have heard of it, I probably would have left a comment on the mod's page asking the developer what the hell was wrong with him. And I agree completely with the course of action that moddb has taken. If a bunch of idiots who don't want to listen to what you have to say are bitching at you and you don't want them to go too far and ruin gaming and mods for everyone, like in this situation, you make a decision and you stand by it. I applaud the fact that moddb took decisive action and I think you have got to respect their decision weather you agree with it or not.
If you were to do some research on why the mod was being made and not just reacting to the name of the mod, you might actually learn something.
The mod was being made in order to get reactions. Pawnstick and his lackies are mad that they made fire and are getting burned by it.
(buried)
Freedom of speech? you gotta be kidding me. Try saying that to the parents of students who lost thier children in school killings.
who about a mod about 9/11? london bus bommings?
grow up man. some things are taboo. this is one of them.
There are some things that are taboo, yes, but not in the gaming media - not even in movies or TV. The film industry continuously crosses over with such stories, presented from many different perspectives . . . as does the literary world. Why should the gaming industry be subject to an entirelly different set of rules regarding what is and is not appropriate subject material?
We've already had blockbuster titles dance around such taboo issues with subject matter, without backing down. Sure, the media pitched a hellstorm over it, but they've forgotten it by now.
Games (and mods by extension) are in essence a story-telling media, whether that story is fiction, non-fiction, satire, parody or otherwise should not be up to the general media to decide. If a developer feels they have something to say, no matter how they decide to go about it, and no matter what the majority opinion of said subject matter is, they should have that freedom to do so. Simply because the vast majority of us don't agree with the subject material, or find it offensive, shouldn't mean they can't express themselves.
The mediawill find a scapegoat no matter what - it's when that scapegoat backs down instead of standing up and fighting back does it get worse. Look at how many times the music industry (or specific bands) have been targeted for various instances over the years . . . and the reason it falls apart so quickly is the industry standing their ground. The gaming industry has yet to stand up for itself, and these actions here are not helping the matter at all.
I, for one, completely agree removal of the mod was a poor choice. It should've remained. Perhaps instead moddb could've added numerous disclaimers and such therby protecting themselves and others here . . . but it should have been left alone.
ModDB shouldn't be put in a position to defend itself over a troll mod; you're kidding yourself if you even remotely think that this mod was anything serious other than to get blood to shoot out of people's eyes and take as much down with it. That's why it was pulled.
They can still develop it and promote the hell out of it (I doubt they will since I guarantee they already hit the high-tide of their propaganda); just not using the already established avenues of ModDB and Desura. No censorship; no injustice.
I registered an account just to voice my thoughts.
Quite frankly, I think MODDB made a huge mistake in removing this mod by hiding under the guise of "protecting the images other mods." This would be like my local library banning a really offensive book because it is a detriment to other books. It hasn't happened, nor will it ever happen.
By caving into the unfounded concerns of parents who don't understand what the ESRB system is for, you've just destroyed all credibility in the arguments made within the main post.
Example:
"...but on the other we also feel people should have the right to be creative and share what they want on a community / developer run site, and we shouldn't have the right to dictate what is/isn't allowed."
Except by caving in, you essentially DID dictate what is/isn't allowed, thus in my mind, rendering that part of your post untrue.
Example 2:
"There is also quite a bit of confusion from non-gaming press, who state that games like this are the reason why all bad things occur, spreading misinformation and fear."
The non-gaming press ALWAYS claim random stuff is the reason why all bad things occur. Hilariously, it was FOX NEWS that ran the story. You know, the station that ran the story about anonymous and yellow exploding vans. Yet MODDB caved. As holdenmcclure has said, you're only proving that knee-jerk social reactions will evoke responses from the MODDB administration.
There is a saying that goes something along the lines of "I don't like what your saying, but I'll fight to the death to defend your ability to say it." MODDB clearly doesn't follow this principle.
(buried)
So, since you just registered; you have zero jursiduction on what the ModDB community expresses. You have fully inadequate information to judge on whether ModDB made a mistake or not.
You're simply here because it's a cheap opportunity to sling mud.
I think you are taking cheap opportunities to sling mud by accusing people of doing so when they add some cents in as users of this site(however minor users that don't contribute). This is like banning a 9/11 relative from mourning the victims because they 'have no information'. Also, just because he just signed in you personally dictate for a fact he has 'no information on the issue' when it is in fact sitting right there.
Nice ad hominem. I am not here to sling mud. I'm here because I have been watching this mod, and the moddb page is where I learned of it. I think it's unfortunate that the MODDB staff decided to remove the modification based on complaints of "oh it'll lead to more school shootings, etc." Arguing about what I believe that's a false statement is for another discussion. I still think iNtense's actions contradict what he says in his post. I have no doubt he only wants the best for the community. I just disagree with his decision.
Since you have been watching this mod, you should know that it is intended to stir controversy and if it goes down in a ball of fire, take as much with it. ModDB became an unwilling target in all of this. Pawnstick doesn't care about ModDB; nor does any anonymous coward on the team that can't show their face because THEY don't want to be associated with this project.
How in the world do you expect Intense to stand behind it when even the creators can't stand behind it?
iNtense doesn't have to stand behind anything other than his "we support freedom of expression\" statement. Moddb is a database for mods. Controversial mods are going to get uploaded at some point no matter what. I'm not sure how ModDB would've been taken down with this mod. They only host the projects. They could've easily added a disclaimer somewhere stating that they are only hosting the mod and nothing more. Instead, it seems like they took the CYA approach and removed it all together.
"Pawnstick doesn't care about ModDB; nor does any anonymous coward on the team that can't show their face because THEY don't want to be associated with this project."
It's just a mod. There isn't much damage it can do. Most parents have never heard of ModDB and they most likely never will. And if they do, what is going to happen? A boycott? Let's get real here. If you're offended by this mod, I fully support your right to express that. However, I draw the line when your reaction prevents me from accessing content.
You can still access it. You can go to Checkboard studios website. INtense isn't hindering their ability to develop or distribute the mod.
Your convenience doesn't equal ability to access. I think you are forgetting that.
Good point. I should have thought of that before posting. But what if a mod's only website WAS the ModDB page? Removal would be denying content. This is how censorship gets started. Australia is a great example. They censored the crap out of L4D/L4D2 because people had knee-jerk reactions to violence years before, leading to censorship laws. In the end though, iNtense can do whatever he wants with the site. I just wish his decisions aren't guided by idle threats.
Then they can go other places to have it hosted for free, or even pay for hosting. You would have point if ModDB required people that registered mods to pay a registration fee. Then and only then would people have the argument of paying for a service and having it denied. AFAIK ModDB will never require payment for mods (Desura is a different story and a different platform), but as such you are subject to the whims of ModDB; you have no claims behind it.
ModDB is only one avenue of content hosting; not the only option. Those that make it their only option but provide ModDB with no consideration (money) have no legs to stand on. Much like the saying, you can't put all of your eggs into one basket.
Whoa don't **** on MobDB they needed to remove it because they where getting blamed for the mod's content, when it wasn't them, now i do also think this mod was sick in its own way, but then again they have the right to make what they want. But if you had someone outside your business protesting and you were getting blamed for it, wouldn't you kick them out and tell them to leave? Your sounding hypocritical. Oh and about your last comment, since ModDB started when's the last time you have seen a mod get his much attention?
People have a right to protest. This doesn't mean that ModDB's only option is to remove the mod. They could've stated very clearly that they do not condone the mod at all, and played no part in its development. Hell, Google links to offensive material all the time. Unless it's something unlawful, I don't think they've ever removed any links (feel free to correct me on that). I feel that even though the mod was in poor taste, this action sets a precedent. To me, it seems like if any mod is made regarding a sensitive concept, the chances of ModDB removing it due to complaints are fairly high. While I understand that iNtense didn't want to deal with all the crap from media outlets and non-gaming press, I feel that he could've handled this situation slightly differently.
The people also have the right to protest the protesters for protesting.
I never claimed otherwise :)
ModDB isn't a goverment, it has every right to "violate freedom of speech" without actually doing so. Point in question: If I were just to post "N***er N***er N***er" my post would get removed because I'd just be being offensive for the sake of offending people... that mod is no different.
"ModDB isn't a goverment, it has every right to "violate freedom of speech" without actually doing so."
I totally agree. If you read my argument again, you'll notice that I only take issue with the premise they used to justify removing the mod. As I've stated before, if the mod had violated a law or a rule in the TOS, I'd be right up there with you guys voicing my support. However, this mod didn't do any of those things. Was this mod an exercise to see how far limits could be pushed? Perhaps. But now that it's removed, what are the limits? Have we figured them out? What justification will be used to determine what is off-limits in regards to hosting stuff on ModDB? These are questions I have right now.
"Point in question: If I were just to post "N***er N***er N***er" my post would get removed because I'd just be being offensive for the sake of offending people... that mod is no different."
It would get removed because you are in direct violation of the 'Terms of Use' for ModDB. I quote from it: 'As a guideline any post that contains (but is not limited to) any of the following will be subject to remedial action by the moderators... comments of a bigotry nature (derogatory towards race, religion, gender or sexual preference)'
It doesn't look like this mod violates anything in the TOU.
Trololo
Freedom of speech? Alright, I'll just post random comments on your comments and we'll see what you think.