If Vindicators have one bomb, will they have aoe? Thread - Red Alert 3 Paradox mod for C&C: Red Alert 3

First off, the main purpose of this thread isn't to discuss the merits of one, two, and three bomb Vindicators, but rather to ask if one bomb Vindicators would have AOE damage and perhaps to discuss Vindicator balance.

The reason I think that they might is that R3van said this, "Okay, seriously guys, you should wait until all the units are in a faction before you judge it. Who knows, maybe once the Fusion Torch Tank works right, this won't be a problem. And then there is always the balance team. And related to this topic, the one bomb wil probably take half health of turrets in a radius of the bomb (not half health of units specifically, but in the same radius), which means that having turrets doesn't auto-stop vindis."

If Vindicators do get an aoe, it may actually buff them with the one bomb change.

Positive aspects of this would include Vindicators scaling better into later game where unit counts are larger- such as an Allied player trying to use an Apollo Vindicator tactic against large numbers of Tengu.

Negative aspects of this could be that they may become more effective against Infantry groups than ever before.

Hitting multiple turrets at once if rather a non-issue if the AOE was small, since players would simply not bunch turrets against Vindicators.

It could be that Vindicators do not need the late game scaling at all with the Javelin Multicopter providing sustained output, or it could simply become a tactical option.

I say no. Vindicators are single target; one shot, one kill; blah, blah, blah you get the picture. If you want area of effect airstrikes, buy mesofortresses or centuries.

It may be best to keep the Vindicator as a single-target aircraft, but there are some advantages to giving it a tiny aoe- and disadvantages.

As the Vindicator's role is a surgical anti-tank unit, I would have to say no to AOE. Vindicator can do it's job at present, there's no real point in giving it possibly abusable abilities that aren't necessary for it to do it's job. Blame my minimalist philosophy, if you must.

The only real reason I like the idea is how impotent Vindicators are against large scale Tengu spams- but its probably not worth the boost in power vs Infantry.

From a certain point of view, Tengus are supposed to beat Vindicators-that's where the dual AIR SUPERIORITY fighter mode comes in. particularly large amounts of Tengus...that's like a whole bunch of submerged Sea-wings vs riptides. at any time, the Sea-Wings can end the fight, and the same applies to attacking Tengus with Vindicators. If the concern is Tengu spam, why not Spectrum towers, Guardian tanks, Icarii, and Horizons? Or why not Assault Destroyers, Subhunters and Hydrofoils? Or Apollos, Multicopters, Cardinals, and Liberators? Or a Mesofortress, a Achilles, and a Quasar? Or 2 Barkhausens, 2 Particle Expellers, an Assault Destroyer, and 3 IFVs with Engineers? There's a lot you can do, and I'm certain I haven't mentioned it all. The Vindicator does not have to own against mass Tengus, and indeed giving it splash only to take it away with the heroic upgrade seems churlish.

In normal RA3, Vindicators and Apollos > Tengu small scale, nothing in the Allied airforce > Tengu large scale.

(Albeit the removal of the widely hated disHonorable Discharge upgrade should help make Javelins a conceivable defense against Tengu.)

There is a huge danger in letting an Empire player force you on the defense as the Allies because they will have absolute freedom to mass-expand while you will be trapped in your base: which can easily mean a four refinery economy against a two refinery one.

Anyway, I feel concern that the Vindicator, a heavily iconic, unique, and fun to use unit will become obsolete to more traditional aircraft.

I'm actually not sure what the heroic is now, I think I heard it got changed at some point.

Edited by: Galgus

The Vindicator isn't unique, Galgus. It's your basic bomb-armed strike craft, always has been. And it won't be obsolete as long as it's a mini-mesofortress.

Its unique among other RA3 aircraft in its fly in, drop bomb on one run, and leave focus- most aircraft with Ammo in Paradox aren't as limited to one bombing run.

My concern is based on its role being changed since hitting Harvestors is difficult to balance.

I like the Vindicator being a one shot aerial sniper, there are always moments where you would use the Vindicators to quickly snipe and clear off individual AA units for your Centuries to AOE the large army with minimal damage or to simple just snipe off retreating heavy units.

There will always be units that are more powerful early than in late game although that doesn't make them redundant, it just diversities your late-tier 3 strategy to incorporate them instead of making them a weaker version of something that you can just buy later in the game.

Vindicators are usually fairly weak at the Century game phase- and will probably be even less used then with the new aircraft.

Unless they are still viable early game, and just survive till late.

Anyway, I'm still not sure what their role will be aside that they may become Harvester killers.

just FYI harvester killer is the absolutly lamest and most OP role ever. Especially for a hard to counter early unit (yes it has so much HP you seriously needs fighters to take them down, you'll need TWO flakturrets per collectors to even take ONE vindicator down, if they come in bunches you'll only take down one or two...

considering the cryocopter already is a collector killer I say NO NEVER!

Galgus wrote: Vindicators are usually fairly weak at the Century game phase- and will probably be even less used then with the new aircraft.

Unless they are still viable early game, and just survive till late.

Anyway, I'm still not sure what their role will be aside that they may become Harvester killers.

There's a reason why the century is T3 + they fulfill a different role.

Like in every game, some units might dominate in early game whilst some will only flourish during late-game. The Vindicator flourishes during early game because there are less units out and every kill is literally a bane to your opponent, but however towards late game AOE collateral damage becomes important since both sides are fielding more units but however, the Vindi can still serve an awesome role in sniping off the more heavier units the Century/Liberator didn't finish off or to quickly destroy weakened retreating units. (and I kinda agree with Griffinz, limiting this unit just for that purpose is ridiculous.)

I never said that the Vindicator's role was just harvester killer; I suggested it as a possible target now that the "ruthless infantry fucker" role is off the table. It can still do crowd control as well, against vehicles instead of infantry, and it's still got an ability to wreck support units unmatched by anything else. You think it's useless? Wait until it's the only thing that can reliably kill propaganda walkers/planck compressors/waveform adjusters/aura projectors/strategic artillery that would otherwise be behind the lines and out of reach.

@ IFork
I'm not sure I would rely on a Vindicator to snipe out units, unless they hit hard enough to kill superheavy units in low numbers if there is an opening.

@ Sketch

I'm not sure it would be reliable at those roles since it heavily exposes itself to enemy fire when attacking- its why Vindicators become much less useful when the enemy has enough ground AA to shoot them.

It was never a ruthless infantry killer aside the very early game- and there its role was to slow down enemy force build-up. Harvesters will not really be viable targets for bombing so long as their heavy resistance to Vindicators is in-game: for the heavy amount of funding required to have enough Vindicators to kill harvesters, one would be far better off teching up to something else.

Edited by: Galgus

It could have more speed, allowing it to kill turret-protected units very easily, mowing down enemy numbers to match your force, and forcing turtelers not to turtle. It could also be viable to stop the enemy from bottling you up.

Alternatively, it can be given an AOE, but little-to-none damage against infantry armor. Anti-tank rush would be a very suiting niche. Though a speed boost would be more preferable.

Advanced Armor would be a good heroic.

Edited by: g.a

seriously, there is no such thing as enough AAA, it's the fighters that brings them down.

your claim that some flakturrtets and flaktroopers would be enough isn't true.

Enough Flak Troopers will- albeit I think that building Bullfrogs and Flak Troopers at the same time under a Flak Cannon is the best option for a ground Soviet build.

Of course, in normal RA3 the Soviets can just rush a Super Reactor while moving around, expanding quickly, and grabbing an army when they want- which the Allies can do little to nothing to stop.

I think that part of the Soviets is why they are getting overhauled.

Speed will also help them evade fighters. Furthering their niche as army harassment.

What if their ability was just replaced with a temporary speed boost?

lol, no, the allied player can go tier 2 pretty fast and freeze the soviet collectors, the soviet player have to put everything into AA or he will become broke. Bullfrogs is really the only counter (which are also made harmless with cryocopters)

and I don't get it, you say one should build flakturrets, IT DOESNT WORK.

Ah, Cryocopter rushes help, but thats a bit of an all-in tactic.

The purpose of making a Flakturret is to build your forces under it until they can kill the Vindicators without it- it shortens the time considerably.

the problem is really that soviet AA is low dps/cost. Oh, and that flaktroopers are crap. Their only use is as flakblades (which I haven't seen for ages,because it's so darn expensive)

I thought that Flak Troopers had some buff in Paradox- I think they got poorly nerfed in vanilla RA3 because of Flakblade, which hurt their AA/cost ratio too much instead of just addressing Flakblade strength.

Bullfrogs aren't really weak- and when they run from Vindicators trying to bomb them, they are probably the most effective tier 1 ground AA unit vs them.

you need $800 of Flak turrets and $1200 of flak troopers working in concert to stop a vindicator before it hits the flak turret-and that's if it goes straight for the center of the cluster(the turret). more likely it'll pick off a trooper or hit another part of your base, rendering your invested resources mostly wasted.

EDIT: and yes, I've noticed bullfrogs do that well-but they're multirole amphibious APCs with AA, they don't do well at any particular one of those roles. they're the only ground-based mobile AA the soviets will ever need, but they aren't entirely effective at the AA role.

Edited by: Nukeknockout