Things i'd like to see in the future - Space Marines Thread - Ultimate Apocalypse Mod (DOW SS) for Dawn of War

Hey Folks and UA Mod Developers.

So I've been playing UA mod for about a year or two and I'm still very much enjoying the Mod (Huge thanks to the Mod Developers for making one of my favorite games ten thousand times greater and removing some of the issues I really had with the base game before playing with the UA Mod.) With all that goody goody hugs and love out of the way. I wanted to talk about one of my favorite armies to use in the Mod and as you can guess by the topic title, that is the Space Marines which i will be starting on the unit front of things and then move on to the real meat & potatoes of why I made this sort of wishlist/light feedback post.

New Space Marine units and unit upgrade additions.

#1. Scout Sergeant

- I'd really like to see Scout Squads be able to recruit a Scout Sergeant into their group and granting them the abilities-

• Rally - To restore Morale. (Default ability)
• Auspex - To locate stealth units in a wider radius than the Servo Skull for a limited time. (Can be Researched in the Armory after Tier 1 or 2 Stronghold upgrade)
  

Weapon Loadout for the Scout Sergeant

• Shotgun - Stock Loadout. - Effective against Infantry.

After Researching "Scout Sergeant Tactics" in the Armory at Tier 1 Stronghold

• Bolt Pistol & Combat Knife - Tactical Loadout (Path 1) - Effective against Infantry. (Cheapest Path)
• Chainsword - Sniping Loadout (Path 2) - Effective against Heavy Infantry.
• Bolt Pistol & Chainsword - Assault Loadout (Path 3) - Effective against Infantry and Heavy Infantry. (Most Expensive)

#2. New Scout Weapon Upgrades

- I'd like to see Scouts gain limited access to Heavy Weapons after constructing the Armory. This allows the Scouts to bring Heavy weapons to the battle in a cheaper alternative platform, though defensively weaker platform over that of the Tactical Marines.

• Heavy Bolter (Hellfire Bolts) (Limited to 1)
• Missile Launcher (Limited to 1)

#3. New Elite unit - Veteran Scout Sergeant

- I think it would be neat to see a new Elite unit added and this one being combat focused instead of Combat/Construction like the Techmarine. The Veteran Scout Sergeant could be offered at Tier 2 or 3.

Veteran Scout Sergeant Abilities

• Rally - To restore Morale.
• Auspex - To locate stealth units in a wider radius than the Servo Skull for a limited time.
• Disciplined Aim - The Veteran Scout Sergeant and Veteran Scouts gain a Damage bonus for a period of time.
• Demolition Charges/Detonation - Self explained

Able to Recruit a limit of Three Veteran Scouts

• Veteran Scout (Bolter) - Limited to 3 - Veteran Scout armed with a Bolter
• Veteran Scout (Chainsword) - Limited to 3 - Veteran Scout armed with a Chainsword
• Veteran Scout (Shotgun) - Limited to 3 - Veteran Scout armed with a Shotgun
• Veteran Scout (Sniper Rifle) - Limited to 3 - Veteran Scout armed with a Sniper Rifle

Weapon loadouts

• Shotgun - Stock loadout - Effective against Infantry
• Bolter - Effective against Infantry and Heavy Infantry
• Sniper Rifle - Effective against Infantry and Heavy Infantry
• Missile Launcher - Effective against Vehicles
• Plasma Pistol & Power Sword - Effective against both Infantry and Heavy Infantry
• Plasma Pistol & Power Fist - Effective against Heavy Infantry and Vehicles

#4. New Veteran unit - Veteran Assault Squad

- While I do love the Vanguard Marines, I'm a little sad that the Assault Squads get phased out at a certain point. I think it would be cool if there was Veteran Assault Squads that can bring more of that quick attack close-combat that the Assault Squads do. They can be balanced out by costing more than the Vanguard Marines. and with a smaller leadership addition pool with only a Sergeants.

Squad size: 4 (5 with Sergeant)

Veteran Assault Marine Abilities

• Rally
• Frag & Krak Grenades
• Jump
• Boosters - Increases movement for a period of time

Veteran Assault Marine loadouts

• Plasma Pistol & Chainsword - Stock Loadout
• Flamer
• Plasma Gun
• Storm shield
• Lightning Claws
• Power Fist & Plasma Pistol

Sergeant loadout

• Storm Shield & Thunder Hammer

#5. Chapter Battle Doctrines

-Moddb and I have been having a argument over my plans, so my apologies for this list getting larger since they keep telling me off with my original plan. So, here is how I personally envision Chapter Battle Doctrines for the following Space Marine Chapters.

• Ultramarines Battle Doctrine
• Imperial Fists Battle Doctrine
• White Scars Battle Doctrine
• Iron Hands Battle Doctrine
• Raven Guard Battle Doctrine
• Blood Angels Battle Doctrine
• Salamanders Battle Doctrine
• Dark Angels Battle Doctrine
• Space Wolves Battle Doctrine

How would Players pick a Chapter Battle Doctrine?

I feel this should be offered through the Stronghold at the start of the game, sort of like how the Marks of Chaos are opened to the Chaos Space Marines at the start. These Chapter Battle Doctrines of course should be free just like the Marks as well, this way the player can start progressing the development of his army with the advantages/disadvantages that come with it immediately.

How would each Chapter Battle Doctrine perform differently compared to the others?

This is where we start getting into the real meat and potatoes of the Chapter Battle Doctrines and ultimately how they play differently from each other. Now, the hardest part will be both matching the feeling of these chapters, while at the same time trying to maintain some sense of balance, which starting off I will be posting my idea of how the Ultramarines Battle Doctrine should play out in the Mod if these Battle Doctrines are added later on.

Please note: I will post a few different options for each Chapter Battle Doctrine. One that is a Simple version, one that is a slightly more advance version, and then an Advance version.

---

(Brief Lore)

Now the Ultramarines are of course not just any Codex Astartes Chapter, but the Chapter of the very Primarch who wrote the Codex Astartes, Roboute Guiliman. The Ultramarines follow the Codex Astartes with extreme discipline and do not stray from its teachings, even when faced with a situation that might be easier to deal with by simply approaching with a different tactic in mind. To go against the Codex Astartes and the seniority of the Marine, the Marine will likely have to take upon himself a Death Oath. Which means they're exiled (No Longer a Ultramarine) and has to complete an almost impossible task to redeem himself in the eyes of the Chapter.

So what would the Ultramarines Battle Doctrine look like? Well, this is very simple and can be approached in any way the Mod Developers wish to go with it (Much the same with the other Chapter Battle Doctrines to follow after this.) The Ultramarines do not deviate at all from the path laid out by the Codex Astartes, so you could really say that this sets the Ultramarines up to be a very balanced army overall.

Simple version of the Ultramarines Battle Doctrine

-Now because the Ultramarines follow the Codex so closely, its easy to say that making them a Balanced army with no advantages or disadvantages in any shape or form would work. But this is a very simple version and is mainly targeting those players that like how the Army Plays currently, thus they don't have to change up their tactics.

Slightly more advance version of the Ultramarines Battle Doctrine

-To make the Chapter Battle Doctrine a little more appealing to players, maybe the Ultramarines could be granted a percentage increase to both their minimum and maximum damage output for all their units, in exchange for having a slower production rate towards recruiting them. This would reflect the training of the Ultramarines and their lack of willingness to go outside of the Codex Astartes one bit.

Advance version of the Ultramarines Battle Doctrine

-Now please know before reading too deeply into this. I'm not entirely sure how much of this would be possible, let alone how much balance might be thrown out of whack, so take this Advance version as more of a idea of what I would like to see in the far future if its possible, but can easily live without if its not possible/Mod developers don't want to commit this amount of effort to not just one Chapter Battle Doctrine, let alone the eight others that would require the same attention.

Ultramarine Battle Doctrine

• All units gain a X increase to minimum and maximum damage output
• All units are produced at a slower rate

Unique Ultramarines Chapter Research

• Supplies from Ultramar - Gain +100 Requisition and Power generation. (Tier 3 Requirement)
• Mobilize the Realm - All Unit Production rates are increased to normal rates. (Tier 4 requirement)
• Pride of Ultramar - All Banner Carriers have increased health and Sergeants increased Maximum damage. (Tier 4 requirement)
• Courage and Honor! - Squads with a Banner Carrier, Sergeant, or Hero unit attached to it gain 500 morale (Does not stack) (Tier 5 requirement)
• We march for Mcragge - All units gain increased movement speed (Does not stack) (Tier 5 requirement)
• Tyrannic War Veterans - All units gain effectiveness against Tyranid units. (Tier 5 requirement)
• Ultramar Honour Guard - Able to recruit an extra Gladiator Command squad and Gladiator Command squads are immune to Morale loss. (Tier 5 requirement

---

(Brief Lore)

The Imperial Fists are the 7th founding Legion, led by Rogal Dorn. The Imperial Fists are mainly a Fleet based Chapter and their specialist is Siege and Urban Warfare.

(Had to stop do to irl matters)

#6. New Tier V Walker unit - Devastator & Assault Centurions

-For a little additional late game punch and to fill People with that pure 'Centurybubble.' love (5 internet high fives if you catch the reference.) I do see where this non-Relic power house could have a place in the Mod at some period of time.

Devastator Loadouts

• Twinlinked Heavy Bolters & Hurricane Bolter - Stock loadout
• Twinklinked Lascannons
• Grav-Cannon
• Missile Launchers

Assault Loadouts

• Siege Drills with Flamers & Hurricane Bolter - Stock loadout
• Meltaguns
• Ironclad Assault Launcher

Updated 5/12/2016

Edited by: Dunabar

Nice idea's, I think FoK has the scout heavy weapons and sergents implemented and DoWPro has scout sergeants too.

Nice idea's, I think FoK has the scout heavy weapons and sergents implemented and DoWPro has scout sergeants too.

Ooh, if that is indeed possible, then that would be extremely awesome (to me anyways lol) I would be happy just to have the Sergeant/Sergeant abilities in the Scout squads and the limited option of Heavy Weaponry for those squads. The Veteran Scout Sergeant and Veteran Scouts is really more wishful than anything else and I could easily live without it if made things far too unbalanced/Mod Developers don't deem it needed.

Very good ideas indeed, you should also add the Blood ravens to the list (since they are obviously the poster boys of DoW). I really think the SM should get some kind of unit which can challenge the obliterators/mutilators in power and size so i think the SM centurions would be the perfect very late game unit for that role.

To9thecreeperorc wrote:

Very good ideas indeed, you should also add the Blood ravens to the list (since they are obviously the poster boys of DoW). I really think the SM should get some kind of unit which can challenge the obliterators/mutilators in power and size so i think the SM centurions would be the perfect very late game unit for that role.

I had to do a little research over the Centurions and after a small reminder of giggle fits (They look so stupid lol. They're like Grot Tanks in the sense that they're so adorable, you just want to shoot it with all the rockets just to watch it Pop.) But, all good spirited prodding aside, I do see where the Centurions could play a nice role in a late game SM unit so I will add it to my list. Also for anyone who has never seen a Space Marine Centurion before and feels too lazy to google.

(Imperial Fist Centurion with Twin Heavy Bolters and Hurricane Bolters)

Also I'm a little hesitant to add the Blood Raven's to the list, mainly because I wanted to stick with confirmed First Founding Chapters/Legions like the ones listed. If the Blood Ravens were to have a light shined on their Chapter's founding and it turns out to be one of the two lost Legions, then I would be very happy to see a Blood Raven Battle Doctrine. But, I'm also not the Mod Developer so I have no say what so ever in such regards what so ever, even without having started typing up the current listed Doctrines, I've already started to see where its going to be hard to balance out each of them.

Edited by: Dunabar

The doctrines could have smaller impacts. Just putting it out there, but I'd love to see Vanguard Veterans with jetpacks, so the doctrine effects could be behavior based. Like larger(+1 unit) or more hp for assault squads and jump packs for Vanguards. I'm guessing this would fit the blood angels and Dark angels in a sense...? :/

Catz_Rule wrote:

The doctrines could have smaller impacts. Just putting it out there, but I'd love to see Vanguard Veterans with jetpacks, so the doctrine effects could be behavior based. Like larger(+1 unit) or more hp for assault squads and jump packs for Vanguards. I'm guessing this would fit the blood angels and Dark angels in a sense...? :/

Yeah that is why I put in Veteran Assault Squad. I love the Assault Marines, but they feel like they get phased out pretty quickly.

If a smaller role is easier, than that would work for me. But, the way I personally would like to see it work is something like-

Ultramarines - Balanced Army favoring better trained units, for slightly slower recruitment time (IE: Takes longer to produce units, but your Units are Stronger overall)

White Scars - Fast Attack army favoring rapid assault/mobile warfare, for slower production rate of Heavy Armored Vehicles, Relic units, and Titans.

Imperial Fists - Defensive/Cover based army that favors sturdy base designs at a higher cost, while using units in cover to stand toe to toe with their enemies.

This is breaking these three down into the most simple form however and not really going into the deeper details of what I have in mind. Though it probably already sounds like I'm asking the World of the Mod Developers (which I do feel I am a bit) but giving out the ideas never hurts.

True, hopefully such idea's could be looked into after the mod team has met its current goals. I'm sure a lot of the fans would also love more choice in the Space Marine army.

Catz_Rule wrote:

True, hopefully such idea's could be looked into after the mod team has met its current goals. I'm sure a lot of the fans would also love more choice in the Space Marine army.

Indeed, their current goals are awesome from what I have seen so far. Cannot wait for the coming patch!

Just finished adding the Centurions on my list, now to prepare for the Ultramarine Battle Doctrine and to get some screenshots.

I would like many of the ideas on this list. I especially am keen to see Veteran Assult Marines!!! All the scout ideas sound fair, I do like the idea of a squad sergeant as I have seen in other mods also. The heavy weapons add ons might make the scounts more versatile in late game since currently they pretty much only are useful for the infiltration and sniping. When they are found, they die quickly since they are one of the smallest health pool tier0 units. So I'm not sure about if it would be good investment to add more into them or not unless they were a little more durable late game...which maybe the squad leader would add value for.

Here are some additional things I'd love to see:

1) Release the Emperor's Champion!!! (as a hero unit with wargear, some abilities, and allow a special 'sword' or weapon to be unlocked at tier 5). He should have some type of ability where he can restore moral to units within an AOE.

2) Instead of the current Gladiator Command Squad unit add-ons (apoth, banner bearer, servo, thunderfire cannon), I'd rather see a Squad leader which is also 'commander' type since the add on units just die quickly compared to commander-type units.

Personally, I'd like to see that this leader IS the chapter master. You could only 'unlock' this leader at Tier 4, and then would still need to spend the same amounts of resources for his wargear upgrades. The only hero unit available at Tier 1 would be the FC.

Yes, this would mean the Force Commander and Chapter Master can be fielded at same time, but the Chapter Master would be expensive to field and would be late game.

3) Certain transport vehicles (of all factions) should have healing aura's, at least the ones which can 'spawn' new units.

4) I'd like to see the Librarian in Terminator Armor when that tier 5 and research is finished which allows also the Force Commander & Chaplain to have it.

5) I'd still like to see the Librarian have access to some type of AOE damage spell that effects infantry. Like the meteor swarm or lightning storm types.

6) Thunderhawk transport should be available in Tier 2, it is an underutilized unit where it is now and somewhat nullified by the ability to deep strike from orbital relays. It should have at least a turret or something to defend itself. It would allow healing aura. Even if these were research upgrades for it , that would be excellent (turret, healing aura, shield, and also research to allow it to spawn certain units).

7) It would be nice to see for some units with bolters, some toggle which would allow them to switch to hellfire rounds, or other types. This would also apply to Chaos SM. Warhammer40k.wikia.com

Cheers!

Ultramarines – Combat Doctrine: This detachment can utilize each of the following combat doctrines once per game. To do so at the start of your turn you state which combat doctrine you wish to use, if any, until the start of your next turn. You can only use one combat doctrine per turn.

Tactical: Units in this detachment re-roll ones while shooting, unless they’re tactical marines and they re-roll all failed to hit rolls in the shooting phase.
Assault: Units in this detachment can re-roll their charge range. Assault squads, bikes, or attack bikes instead have the fleet rule.
Devastator: Units in this detachment may re-rolls to-hit on snap shots, including overwatch shots, in addition models in this detachment’s Devastator squads have the relentless unless they disembarked from a transport in their movement phase.

These are the actual table top rules for Ultramarines, so maybe seeing some abilities for Ultramarines like these and having units like Centurions as they're special units as well as improved Tactical, Devastator and Assault Marines. And wishfully hoping for Vanguard with Jumppacks instead of teleporters lol

Or maybe just have unique upgrades for Ultramarines that increase those stats for those unit types

Edited by: Shananigins

I agree with everything, especially regarding Scout Sergeants, Veteran Assault squads and Chapter Disciplines. I rekon it wouldn't the hardest thing to just add in a few bonus and maybe 2 unique units from some of the major chapters (especially that, if given permission, there are already several great models available from other mods). Not so much where making these doctrines are a huge headache, but enough where if really feels like you are playing that chapter, rather then a generic base.