personal impressions and few suggestions Thread - Ultimate Apocalypse Mod (DOW SS) for Dawn of War

yo
1st thing english is not my native language but i do believe it wont be much a problem, 2nd i want to say that i do really enjoy UA mod, so i decide to share with my thoughts bout mod balance and few other things in overall . i played mousty skirmishes vs cpu but also few dozen vs other players(mainly 1v1). and pliz keep in mind that are only my impressions and thoughts bout balance/improvements i dont know if there are some technical/owner limitations etc. for with in advance i apologize.

mod is pretty fun and i like most of the change (compared to vanilla or dow2 since i notice that some inspiration were taken from there as well, and i didynt been very active in dow moding scene) but srsly those updated models (mainly for sm) are F*****G AWESOME srsly i dont really know whos achievement it is but that person should send to relic copy of those models with descriptions " that how you keep game alive" lol. (or as add on to his cv).

but not all imo is good mainly to:

the "dissbalances" in base protection of some races. while sm,csm,eldar,tyranid,tau,dark eldar,ig,sob got typical vanila system of defense(turrets and support structures) while ork and necrons are way to overpowered in this aspect with always requaried in skirmish mode either use of titans or few relics units to be able to remove them(i truly doubt that any one defeat ork/nec on harder+ or good player in tier 1-4 by using mainly infantry+ few early vehicles), what i want to say is that those two races are to camper in comparison to others. i do believe that in case of ork all buildings should do by far less dmg(to be blunt they should do same dmg like grots but in same time got buffed up hp to be near of hp other races structures),rockets from banners got atm waaaaaay to big range(srsly losing titans becoz of them is quite rofl). similar situation is with necrons and with there lp obelisk - to big range of fire + 2x doom blast ability(i think that how it was called), well true that nec is quite prone to fast rush but he not that defenseless.

infiltration - i find it really annoying duo to lack of proper detection units, and the fact that all units are automaticly uncover when enemy just stend next to them(well not always) - while its not a big deal vs player but vs cpu is pretty f***g annoying since cpu move hes unit to location wher is infiltrator on auto...also clocking close combat units like genstelers tend to awfully bug them self to be able to hit units with out being detected... or nec deceiver with can be entire time under cloak and shoot...

from other things: grenades as global research for all inf squads imo is bad idea, game turns(player vs player) in to who faster research grenades and focus enemy squads with them. i wuld rather see a choice to with grenades squad should be equip - let say just 1 grenades type selected by player(ofc after research them lol) with would be use as normal(cooldown timer etc)and 2nd choice(final one) for with player should payed with ressorces each time he will use it, or give bigger cooldown depending on grenade type (for example : frags 25s,inferno30s,...melta60s,and those cooldown reset each time to full after using one type of grenade). and on site note i think that grenades(frags mainly but inferno also) should receive dmg nerf and there dmg should scaling up with weapon accuracy upgrades or separate upgrade in higher tiers(2frags to wipe out t2 tsm squad...+ inferno grenades do more dmg to structures then krak ones - i dont think that was intentional). the main reason for that is my personal experiences from 1v1 with my bro(we bought are ranked veterans from old dow glory days) and those grenades research stacking just render 1st av weapons useless(why some one need av since he got kracks and melta). and that lead to bilding more basic squads with are only carriers for grenades xD (but that in sens of 1v1 players). anther thing regardless of nades are stuns thats how they work now imo is broken and leads to quite big abuse(by players and by cpu) mainly problem is that they consume morale in instant why they just should stun enemy squad/monster for 5+seconds and temporary decreased viev range. its really lol sight when assault terminators go vs 2 sq of guardians - 2 stuns and they need run away from guardians xD(on other thoughts it might be some bug that terminators lose in instant 1100+ morale). also i do believe that nades need to have friendly fire turn on,having the off limit there usage in 1v1(vs other player) with use jump/fast cc units. and pro tip for cheap nades carriers => banner bearers...

run! special abilyty imo need extreame nerf on recharge(60-90s) i find it really cheap to spam in every game "q" just to do annoying harassment in opponent base or cheap way to run away from stronger foe.(becoz of this ability there is almost no need for transporters...).

hero levels imo they should be restricted by tiers (you know t1 only 2 upgrades t2 another 2 and so on), prices could be less expensive(by half of the current prices) but i m fine like they are now. also i want point out that current hp regeneration rate is way to hight imo.

banner bearer imo should have more hp or higher durability (i m not sure but i betting that in UA is same like in dow where auto attacking focused mainly on hero/support add units first).

fire power of turrets and lp2+ are imo to powerful at early game (they shredding low lv commanders and infantry to fast) while later on in game they are very weak. imo lp2+ and turrets should have at start tuned down dmg but add research options(restricted by tiers) with increase they usefulnesses in later game(dmg + hp boost)

knock back (mainly by ork wagons but also other artillery units) should be also receive some means of nerfing(dmg or/+ 30% chance to be able to knock back heavy infantry - right now when ork cpu/player start spaming wagons opponent infantry is close to useless + fact that those wagons got really healthy amount of hp...

ork bomber ability( i dont remember its name) imo should receive range nerf.

animation of deep striking of asm/raptors takes to much time.

asm/raptors imo should have higher dmg atm they barley win vs slugga boyz and got hard time with dark eldar maldreks basic cap squad, while they shouldnt have at all =/ + after t1 asm are freeking useless...can be added some upgrade in t1-2 with increases there cc dmg to become more useful then just a meat shield for sergeant with power weapon? like vanguard upgrade? either from asm/raptor menu or armory? coz when they encounter khorn berserkers or upgraded banshe is one site fight...

mark of khorn ability in berserker squad should be restrict till t3, its realy to powerful in t1-t2. chaos renegades should lose there mortars upgrade - as it now is to powerful in early game(huge range, and big dmg) instead allow them to equip rl in t1.

vidicator should be accessible for sm in t1, right now is in t2. while chaos predator should be in t3(early predator had sense in soulstorm since tcsm were weaker in range and got bigger squad size,and also chaos predator it self were quite weak and he were no math for sm predator until t4 upgrade. here in UA those differences are gone and early chaos predator is really game braking in sm vs csm battels)

tyranids infantry (lictors,reveners and warriors) are pretty weak...like really weak =/ and other nid units(beside zonetoper) like carnifex, and there artillery are like made of just from paper...

waaaagh! ability also imo need be nerfed (especially that huuuuuuge speed boost and recharge time),and ork hight tier infantry got ridicules dmg and armor(komandoz,flash gitz and lootas) with small prizes per model for there effectives.

ig medic - imo it shuld be as in squad elite upgrade right now is way to messy with recruiting him from hq and then adding him to desired squad. + he takes limit with is just 6...and that limit is shared with psyker,comissar,priest and assasins (btw assasins shuld heve ther own limit like 1-2 units)

infantry hp regeneration could be bit higher when they dont fight (like heros current system)

dreadnoughts and other cc walkers they are surprising weak in terms of hp and dmg i mean com on ironclaw dred hitting with 2 fist barracks building and that one is able to repair it self just thx to self repair ability? rly? or been beat by t1 cc squads?...com on it is freken drednot =( back in days to take drednot down you had to have some proper av or heroes with cc weapons upgrades.

chapter master with his iron halo shield turn on becoming the best overpowered unit in the game....ther is practicly no way to kill him with out huuuuuuuge amount of weaponry + he regain with that shield ON his morale very fast(and i believe problem is in that regenerating while shild is ON)

land raider crusader got in description that he is strong vs demons...but realistically he do s***t to them =( redeemer is better in this task =/

scout squad imo should be increase from 4 models to 6 models with 4 wepons upgrades + lower price per model(30 reg), after mving sniper rifles to t2 they are simple useless combat unit in t1 + they dont use grenades. can concept of sm scouts be redone to match codex approach?(adding to weapons selection rocket launcher,hevy bolters, some cc weponry + sergeant? and bolters with out need for armory in t1) also equipping scouts 1st with sniper rifles then upgrading them with infiltration bugs them with inability to turn on/off cloaking.

hell talon imo should be moved by tier up - he was a balancing problem back in soulstorm and he is even bigger in UA - its faster then he was...

necrons destroyers jump ability is imo to strong additon to them...i mean com on now they got squad benefits, hight speed and wery hight dmg output....the point is that with good micro you cant kill them now , it is like adding to possessed marines teleporters...

demons in csm army (bloodleters,screemers etc) imo should receive demon armor instead of monster, right now they drop like flies from just lp2 fire.

space marines and there early anti vehicle weapons problem...it was well know in vanilla and is sad that that stuff werent adressed here... i mean tsm and theres rocket luncher are to expensive and to unreliable(those rl tend to miss a lot when you need them to hit stuff like hell talons) + weapon servitors are god dam useless = to low hp,to low morale and quite expensive, and that aa upgrade is simple weak. tempests are also to damn expensive(machine cult+ armory) and one model do barley any dmg untill he is shoot down by regular infantry weapons/lp2. it would be nice if devastators receive their lans cannons upgrade in t1(well it wont change av thing to much in term of economy but at lest those lans cannons are for sure better then rocket launchers). there is no way to change rl to work similar like in dow2? - shooting vehicles,structures with 100% accuracy but poor when shooting infantry. also plasma cannons and multi melta are not worth there prizes, multi melta got to low dps and range, while plasma cannons basically only knock back dealing small dmg for theres long reload time.

dark eldar got to much slowing down weapons with slow down way to hard.

lp3(sm,csm) auto cannons(sm,csm,ig) got something broken with dmg (to low), lp2 (sm,csm) or ig heavy weapon team (with out upgrade) do fair amount of dmg but in moment of upgrading to lp3 or adding auto cannon for ig hwt they do very little dmg to every targets.

i would like also write about armor values(mainly of tactical marines) but i know that that thing is extremely hard to balance so i only adress csm and sm at start of game. right now tsm and tcsm are balanced only in mirrors math (or classic sm vs csm) but when it coms to sm/csm vs eldar/ork etc. basic tsm or asm(tcsm or raptors) are beaten by cheaper and more numerous units like guardians or orkz boyz(dow2...). i do believe that increasing durability of there armor at start wont really affect current balance that much in favor for sm/csm players+ fact that tsm with out accuracy upgrades are pretty week any way but in this way they will be able to soak more dmg and show that quite hight amount reg is worth it(70 reg for one tsm..thats is really a lot especially at tense 1v1 vs non sm/csm race).

and final thing about balance with i want to write are terminators. i think lot of ppl will agree that current termiantors (sm and csm) are terrible disappointing in terms of combat efficiency. assault cannons(for me auto pick after those years spended on playing vanila dow/dow2 online) here in UA they are good for decreasing and keeping down enemy morale, 3x ac need considerably long time for killing basic infantry like guardians but they kill them so its good but beside that ac are useless...(in one of 1v1 matches with my bro my terms shoot his seer councils with lose morale but instead slowly gained hp...)shooting structures with some means of armor - go grab some food it will take some time, shooting armored targets same situation. power fists...same like ac but here at least we can watch some cool animations(but funniest thing is that heavy bolters do nice work and ac should be just bigger and more mean hb...)...about other weapons for them: heavy flamer seams to do his job quite fine(with is just braking morale...), chain fists didnt really notice any difference between them and regular power fist(lol), cyklon ml is just simply faceplam(pliz no offense) and that is really funny since cyklone on force commander is really good(not to good but just good as addition to storm bolter,assault cannon or heavy flamer) while on terminators in number of 3 launchers they do pitiful amount of dmg, and fianly basic storm bolters are also way to weak. same goes for assault terminators. bought units are only good to soaking dmg and thx to teleporters to fast grab in cc mean opponent ranged units allowing devastartor/stern guard or tsm to do proper shooting....and that is same for csm terminators. i personally would like to see hard cap(limit 1 squad per type) but with power buff with will really show that those are "mankind finest warriors" insted of "mankind finest moving practice targets" lol. anther thing is that commander with termianator upgrade is really fantastic especially with lc ...tbh is to fantastic but considering that you need to throw in him ~ 3700reg and 1150 power(well i think its some kinda bug that you need to research level 6 of hero + all war gears in order to get terminator suit option) +1500reg for missing 2 levels + ofc war gear for terminator suit...but now 2920reg and 1825 power for 1st terminator squad with out war gear so they really need to be that much weaker? .why we cant get some similar effects with assault terminators or khorn terminators ?
i wish terminators to be like in 1st dow or vanilla dow2 where they could go with there power fist vs drednots/vehicles and do real dmg to them. not like in ss or in dow2r where cheapest cc unit grab them and hold for long time becoz of they inability to kill it fast, i mean as t4 ranged unit they should lose(but not being just raped) to t3+ specialized in cc unit but rip apart lower ones.

ok i think that will be all bout balance so now small wish list =P can we get liberian , chapelin,chaos lord and sorcerer termiantors armor upgrade ? =P and there is any chance to get for sm grey knight squad at t1 back as elite cc anti demon/monster unit?(i know that they are separate race but still i personally would like them back as support like in dow dc/ss where they fill gap in dow ss t2 lack of proper cc units to counter banshe/berzerkers etc.). any chance for chaos version of apothecary - some nurgel champion or dark apo?.

experience gained by units - can we get in future more clear way to know how this is working(what need to be done like what is more important kill models or dmg in overall, or maybe something else?) and keep track of that in game? and adding kill count in unit panel like in starcraft would be pretty awesome stuff =P

small idea - is there technical possibility for giving lps auto upgrading ability? i mean a option in lps menu with you can marked like auto reinforcing in squads.

well thx for your time reading this wall of text =P i wanted to put more but i bet no one wants to read 23423432page of broken english suggestions =) i hope that UA will surprise me even more in future.

ps. necrons from UA will get some connection to new necron codex?(mainly i ask if there will be some future add or improvement to necron army list based on last necron codex)
ps2.
if there is no one familiar with shorts i use.
cc- close combat
tsm/ctsm- tactical space marines/chaos
ac-assalut cannons
lp= listing post
etc.

Edited by: wredus

The UA team will get to this thread asap when time is found. This is a huge essay to read.

This is the first I saw of this thread... our apologies for the almost 20 day delay.

Hello UA team:

I'm still thinking that the new infiltration system not the solution to the stealth unit. Indeed, I'm still thinking the use of an infiltration system based in spending of energy is so better than ON/OFF system. I think that the stealth unit MUST firing when is infiltrated but the Stealth Suit of Tau must be balanced mainly in the use of all types of grenades (I ever opposed of the uses of all grenades overpowered when this freaking guys are invisible).

Greetings

Edited by: ralleo1980

Nah. I find me not ever rage quitting again after the change. :p

This is the start of the infiltration system. Further tweaking will indeed in the future be excellent. It is just at the start of the works. It needs iomprovement indefinitely and I see how you feel.

But going backwards is not an option. I just HATED that over disliking this.

Btw, wredus, we are on it!

Thank you, we have read your article. We will make lots of changes. All? No... but you will appreciate what will be fixed in the future. Thanks again!

i m glad that in limited way i contribute to mod development =)

well me and few mates playing lots of 2v2 and we gather some new impression about other races balances....but is quite a lot of them so i will need to do one more wall text, mostly is nothing game braking but mainly abuse stuff in player vs player with we do believe should sooner or later be dealt with. but i need to find some free time to sum them up and then post it.

btw about infiltration system, current system is good but it have to much holes with can be abuse. also i dont really agree that some units/structures can shoot under cloaking while others cant(eldar turrets,nec deceiver) + i do believe that introducing back 1 or max 2 detecting unit per race wont affect current system but add counter to such tactics.(for example sm-lib,csm grate sorcerer,ig colonel brown etc)

Edited by: wredus

wredus wrote: necrons destroyers jump ability is imo to strong additon to them...i mean com on now they got squad benefits, hight speed and wery hight dmg output....the point is that with good micro you cant kill them now , it is like adding to possessed marines teleporters...

Necron Destroyers aren't that tough. They're pretty good, but they still fall easily to any anti-vehicle unit. Hmm, I wonder if it would make sense for Possessed Marines to teleport? That sounds like an intriguing idea.

wredus wrote: demons in csm army (bloodleters,screemers etc) imo should receive demon armor instead of monster, right now they drop like flies from just lp2 fire.

That would make them way overpowered. That is not a good idea. Daemon armour is pretty damn tough.

wredus wrote: experience gained by units - can we get in future more clear way to know how this is working(what need to be done like what is more important kill models or dmg in overall, or maybe something else?) and keep track of that in game?

The Heroes wincondition lets units gain experience. Try that, if you haven't already.

wredus wrote: and adding kill count in unit panel like in starcraft would be pretty awesome stuff =P

I'm not sure that's possible to do in the Soulstorm engine; though it might be possible with SCaR, who knows?

wredus wrote: i do believe that introducing back 1 or max 2 detecting unit per race wont affect current system but add counter to such tactics.(for example sm-lib,csm grate sorcerer,ig colonel brown etc)

One of the things about the UA mod is to remove hard limits from everything except from things where it'd make sense, e.g. commanders, so that wouldn't be a good idea.

Regarding infiltration, I have an opinion on the new system. While I like the fact that all infantry except detectors now have a keen sight radius of two, I think having toggable infiltration is overkill. It's unnecessary since every infantry unit can just run up to any stealthed units to reveal them and it adds more micromanagement that's not needed. It makes it a pain to use stealthed units and devalues them greatly. That's probably the reason why they changed from that system in Dark Crusade. Infiltrators are more useful in it's system than in Winter Assault's system, which is what this basically is. I say that you should keep the 'every infantry has a keen sight of two' thing, but lose the toggable infiltration. It makes using stealthed units less fun and more frustrating.

THEONLYDarkShadow wrote:
Necron Destroyers aren't that tough. They're pretty good, but they still fall easily to any anti-vehicle unit. Hmm, I wonder if it would make sense for Possessed Marines to teleport? That sounds like an intriguing idea.

ehh...in proper 1v1,2v2 on maps like blood river,meetings of mind,saint square(official automatch and esl maps) and with standard game settings, a necron good player(but not necessary very good or epic) in moment of sending out 1st squad of destroyers breaks game for the other player or players. you ask how? its simple he move/jump to harassment base(bildiners,generators) in moment of response they simple do jump out and is no longer possible for other player to chase them down even if he kill 1 model or 2 in squad he still need to face them after they are reinforce(and here is one of few problems - replenish vehicles in field with out choking monolith, early very strong and mobile unit and in same way work chaos hell talon - there is no good counter agents that at early game) . while in same moment nec player move up with his main army to take something of 2ndary importance(lets say relic point). that player sending agein his forces to reclaim/defend relict point doing so destroyes do there stuff again and that player is trap - he cant advance and if he do that he will lose generators with are essential in late game . you will say but he can left to defend some av? no he cant coz those destroyers simple jump in to that squat knocback it and if necessary engage them in cc allowing second sq to do kill. you might ask what about vehicles well they also are not way to go why? becoz he play vs necrons with from start of the game making cheap attack scarabs(with alone are also game braking try do few squads at start of the game and rush opponent...its gg even if they wont defeat him they will slow him down in every aspect giving nec player an edge later on in game ) and jumping around with necron lord so that player need t0 units to not let him self being over run,then in t1 need upgrades for them with cost lot of reg and power and slow down tech, so its natural for nec to have as first vehicles. even if some show how other player make vehicles they will be simple useless vs destroyers becoz they wont do anything, since those will be just moving/jump out from them(not to mention that ther is just one early vehicles with can fight vs destroyers and keeping upper hand in that engagement - hell tallon....) . only hight tier units can kill those destroyers on spot but point is that that necron player wont allow you to do them...but that was one way to use destroyer ther is one more even more pissing off with is simple moving with nec blob and in moment of meting enemy squads jump in to them knock backing and basically wining the game since from this point opponent army can to nothing except of run. and thats is problem of destroyers. they are in same time vehicle,asm,squad,ranged unit,fast unit,close combat unit. it migh be diffrent if jump ability was a hight tier upgrade like in late t3 or early t4, but imo should be removed, along with decreasing staring amount of models in sq to 1.

and now about possessed marines - they are one of the best cc units - fast,cheap and very strong vs structures. now add to them teleporters...they can from this moment attack any thing in opponent army, they are no longer limitet with closing distance between them and they target, if needed they simple jump out/in chasing them is not an option since there is just few units in game witch can keep up with possessed in terms of speed. you might say but terminators got also teleporters but difference between them is that speed. even if terminators jump next to range squad that sq can still find his way out with proper micro, with possessed its no longer possible do to high speed and there flames.or even better setting possessed sq on rage attack and jump right behind enemy squads to see lol moment of morale consumption, and thats would be kinda overpowered wont you agree?

wredus wrote: demons in csm army (bloodleters,screemers etc) imo should receive demon armor instead of monster, right now they drop like flies from just lp2 fire.

THEONLYDarkShadow wrote: That would make them way overpowered. That is not a good idea. Daemon armour is pretty damn tough.

i beg to differ...in ua is 3 main factors of unit armor - 1st armor type, 2nd durability level 3rd amount of hp. giving to them demon armor with reasonable numbers wont make them overpowered in any case but can make them useful coz right now they are worthless, when you play 1v1,2v2,3v3 vs good players you will make them once and you will be regret that...

wredus wrote: experience gained by units - can we get in future more clear way to know how this is working(what need to be done like what is more important kill models or dmg in overall, or maybe something else?) and keep track of that in game?

THEONLYDarkShadow wrote: The Heroes wincondition lets units gain experience. Try that, if you haven't already.

well i already did what i m asking is how that system work, what give unit that exp- it is killing other models? or just dealing fixed amount of dmg? or mb time spend in fighting?

wredus wrote: i do believe that introducing back 1 or max 2 detecting unit per race wont affect current system but add counter to such tactics.(for example sm-lib,csm grate sorcerer,ig colonel brown etc)

THEONLYDarkShadow wrote: One of the things about the UA mod is to remove hard limits from everything except from things where it'd make sense, e.g. commanders, so that wouldn't be a good idea.

wowowo you missing the point here. right now we dont have any detection units(and proxy spoting not count), what i m suggesting is to simple give one or mb two units in game(with are not a regular squads but a heroes) ability to spot cloaking units on higher distance as a counter for cloaking tactic. right now is lots of abuse with them in player vs player - you getting very cheap way to track enemy movements,base lay out,tech level etc. and best thing is that you cant do nothing to prevent that.your opponent can mass an army of cloaking units just next to your base/army and you wont know that until will be to late.

Edited by: wredus