Ultimate Apocalypse is a mod for Dawn of War Soulstorm, which aims to create the most diverse possible unit and faction selection within the confines of the original DOW engine. We strive to create the most engaging and balanced Warhammer 40,000 game that we can, without sacrificing the fun factor. From hordes of Orks to the towering Titans, you can always find a new way to play UA. We invite all of you to join us on our Discord server to keep up with the development of the mod!
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| Overall THB Balance Suggesions | Locked | |
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| Jun 17 2015 Anchor | ||
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So this is thread is all about the overall balance of THB and suggesting to the mod team what to do about certain things. So after plenty of testing, i have a few suggestions and comments about THB. The more and more i test i am finding out how balanced THB really is, and exactly how well constructed many things are. So that means yes, most of the people yelling about opness are just whiners. On top of that, that dosent excuse the fact that a few things in THB are absolutely broken, and it causes THB to become a steamy mess. However there are some really simple and easy tweaks that would balance everything out and make THB perfect. as far as my testing has gone, the races that need tweaks are: Daemons, IDH, CSM, IG, Tyranids, And SoB. Daemons ----------------------------------------------------------- -Reduce turret range and slightly reduce damage. -Make commanders cost req and relic resource, as to keep them on par with other races. -Increase the cost of Soul Grinders, as currently they are way to cheap for their power -Slightly increase relic cost of Greater Daemons to prevent Greater Daemon Spam and encourage daemonic vehicle usage -Slightly increase price of furies. -Decrease Red Horror Damage ------------------------------------------------------------ Tyranids -------------------------------------------------------------
-Slightly Reduce Tyrant Guard Damage. -Remove Shield and Morale from Hive Tyrant -Remove Zoanthrope Shield and Morale (Shield makes them way too flashy, and they are instantly targetted making them a waste of resources. -Increase Zoanthrope Health slightly (To counteract removing the shield)
--------------------------------------------------------------- Sisters of Battle -------------------------------------------------------------- -Re-add Monster Units (This dosent pertain to sisters specifically, but when all monster units were converted to daemons it gave the sisters a huge edge over nearly all races) -Reduce "Edict of the Emperor" Damage -------------------------------------------------------------- Imperial Guard -------------------------------------------------------------- -Add an extra 500 relic cost to Generals Reaver Titan (With the added relic cost it makes using the normal reaver titan an actual option over the generals, especially because of how powerful the generals reaver titan is it helps IG in making fielding 2 warhounds or a normal reaver sometimes a better option especially with the extra req and pow price of the generals reaver.) -Increase Deathstrike Missile Launcher Build Time slightly
--------------------------------------------------------------- Inquisition Daemonhunters --------------------------------------------------------------- -Readd Fearlessness to the Grand Master (Right now there is litterally no reason to field him because he is just not a viable unit, with the fearlessness he is comparable to angron in viability, where he is useful enough to be fielded, its just hard to field him. As a friend of mine would put it, "Would i rather have a better paladin or 7 purifier titans? hmmm tough choice".) --------------------------------------------------------------- Chaos Space Marines --------------------------------------------------------------- -Increase Cooldowns on global spells (they do too much for too little cooldown atm) --------------------------------------------------------------- Found something i missed, wanted to discuss something, or wanted to make another suggestion? Feel free in the comments below. Edited by: MistressChara |
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| Jun 17 2015 Anchor | ||
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It is great! But, When asked if one of them NekuShrouden wrote: What point did the problem with chaos space marine? I want to know specifically what problems seriously good point. Edited by: yaranaikANG |
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| Jun 17 2015 Anchor | ||
NekuShrouden wrote: He is THE only reliable unit in IG against daemons and monsters and biological menaces. Yes he is "too reliable" but there are no other alternatives. One scan/teleport or fly with a detector unit + arty he's dead in a second. |
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| Jun 17 2015 Anchor | ||
yaranaikANG wrote: Wasent too bad of a problem, but CSM has a few abilities that become a big problem due to cooldowns for some races. Confusion for instance, which isnt very devastating to say, necrons or Imperial guard can litterally annhilate some races like tyranids or Space marines/enemy CSM as they depend on very powerful infantry. and there is another ability i think is called blood sport? Same thing, it completely annhilates anything that isnt a vehicle or a titan, and it has a very low cooldown for how good it is. Ive seen a game where 12 warrior/ravener squads all went down due to this one ability. For those that dont play Tyranids thats somewhere around 3000 req down the drain in a single ability. Rather than nerf these spells i suggested their cooldowns be increased exponentially, that way since the spells are expensive they are still viable and chaos can have some fun with them without unbalancing the game Xorgacz wrote:NekuShrouden wrote: Yes, i had to mull this one over a bit due to IG not having alot of really good counters until 4th tier for other races relic units. But in the end his damage does need to be nerfed, getting a few of them, they can down the grand master in a very short amount of time, and even then getting too many of them together can cause them to do monstrous amounts of damage, especially since they have high range and are invis you wont be able to counter them very easily. As for the Huge edge for sisters, its because with the advent of monster units becoming daemons, all sorts of anti daemon weapons have become really effective, in the case of sisters they already are known as the counter race because they can make reliable counters for everything, especially daemons. Because of this it has upped the power of the saints by a significant amount due to the higher amount of daemon units in general. On top of that, having a kroot knarloc or an uberfex be called a daemon just dosent sit right. and having monster units back in would allow for more strategizing and potientially more diverse armies, as people in soulstorm tend to spam certain units. (thus why i said it dosent exactly pertain to sisters) |
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| Jun 18 2015 Anchor | ||
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Well, So now you're saying that before point to be removed more points to be added. Unexpected considerably a good idea. |
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| Jun 18 2015 Anchor | ||
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After a bit of testing i realized that warriors are much more powerful than i realized, so decreasing their price is probably not the best idea. I have changed the suggestions as such. Edited by: MistressChara |
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| Jun 18 2015 Anchor | ||
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How so, you're talking about tyranid warriors right? I am planning to try out tyranid, back in 1.73 I couldn't really get the hang of how to play them. I tried using warriors but found them useless, so instead I just spammed gene stealers and that worked better. |
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| Jun 18 2015 Anchor | ||
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And I say that the investigated the chaos space marines were said to be balanced races, It is balanced in the bad means. In general, it lacks a lot compared to the Space Marine. And Compared with the Ultimate Apocalypse, Though much weakened, as abandoned to the staffs. I will upload a specific point at a later. |
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| Jun 19 2015 Anchor | ||
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3 strongest races tau,eldar and necrons 1 eldar phantom titan is almost indestructible,his shields regenerate to fast,necron aeonic orc can bring him down and tau manta 2 ig reaver titan is weak,especialy against tau manta because as i see he fires only missiles at manta,he dont fire arm weapons. |
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| Jun 19 2015 Anchor | ||
mauritos wrote: What settings do you play with? This seems very focused on titans. Most games i play are won or lost a little before titans come into play so personally i'd put eldar and tau as two of the weaker races with necron somewhere in the middle |
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| Jun 20 2015 Anchor | ||
mauritos wrote: Firstly, The Aeonic Orb is nearly impossible to get, and you can only get it if your on titan wars or own like 5 relics as Necrons, The eldar Phantom Titan is also very expensive, but on top of that you can easily kill it by barraging it with stun grenades or tyranid roars or dark eldar abilities etc... As for tau the manta requires you to basically get to a tier 5 and requies a copius amount of resouces and even then its easily killable with enough anti air units. yaranaikANG wrote: I dont see this much in Chaos Marines, Care to elaborate? I see them on par with space marines witht heir god powered units like Plague Reaper, Sorcerer Lord, Slaneesh Turrets, And Khorne Terminators. And with their god specific units they are a more adaptable space marines, so as such they are slightly less of a power race and a little more of a tactics race. Though im interested to see your side of this. khoiman wrote: Warriors back in 1.73 were the tyranids best unit, though it required you to get high control of the map before you could effectively field them. In THB they are no differet, though i see your point with Genestealers, once upgraded enough their damage output is crazy, but i tend not to use them as much because their squishyness weakness is countered by high damaging races like chaos marines, space marines, and daemons. Space marines and daemons especially are pretty common enemies. But yeah, THB they got a bit of an upgrade, they do a bit more damage and can take a few more hits, not too much of a change, but lowering their price could cause some bad problems to many races. Edited by: MistressChara |
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| Jun 21 2015 Anchor | ||
OK, I agree, but if you can korean. It would be better to know, this is the status of recognition Chaos Space Marines in korea. 1. treatment means absence, relatively low viability 2. In a small number of Battle Brother 3. flimsy commander → To some extent solved by building their own specifications 4. Minor Empire copy Armoured 5. Space Marine minor copying Battle Brother → Especially F*cking Seriously 6. chaos way Tech → It lost more status, F*cking Seriously too 7. Low self-mobility → This is Space Marines too 8. UA massive advantage faded and appeared in the malignant THB Of course, also it has the advantage 1. Fast construction work 2. Continuous deep strike possible 3. Powerful Relic 4. The various types of units( UAM Limitation) 5. The majority of the stealth unit 6. still own Space Marine 7. considerably improved Armoured from THB Overall rating : When UAN Strong Race, THB was abandoned in a Moderate Edited by: yaranaikANG |
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| Jun 21 2015 Anchor | ||
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i usaly play with this setings, what imperial guard unit can counter tau manta??valkira gun ship,no it can not. |
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| Jun 22 2015 Anchor | ||
mauritos wrote: Playing on high resources and quick start can quickly break UA's balance very fast. But if you wanna know making tons of AA Gun tanks helps against the manta, but my point being that nothing is really supposed to stand up to the manta except tons of ordinance. Mantas are usually extremely challenging to get, but since you play with quick start and high resources it makes it all too easy. Especially with titan wars as well, with those settings any race with strong titans basically instant wins. I recommend at least taking off Quick start. I usually play with these game options: yaranaikANG wrote: I dont think so, I Play Chaos Marines quite a bit and dont find them anywhere near a moderate race. Depending on which god you pick really effects your playstyle though as many god marks can decide exactly how a game will go for you, i reccomend testing some new god marks. |
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| Jun 22 2015 Anchor | ||
OK but What I said, This is the overall assessment. No partial assessment. If you want, I wlii come gladly investigate. |
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| Jun 23 2015 Anchor | ||
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Edited some more things, |
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| Jun 24 2015 Anchor | ||
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I feel that Space Marines and other heavy infantry should at the very least feel the effects of a grenade. Just because Assault Marines are badass, doesn't mean they can defy the laws of physics. Early game, grenades are important, as they have a key anti-infantry role. But, the space Marines just keep on trucking, and it make it hard to combat them. |
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| Jun 25 2015 Anchor | ||
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I'll put my thoughts about balance here. In general : - Commanders are too powerfull because of their upgrades, nerf the snowballing pls (and the high levels abilities ?) : I get into pvp and only see those 1 or 2 men army winning the game T.T - turrets are tier1 winner, they are ok after : too decisive early on, would say they need a pre-building. for races : - please nerf Tyrannids, dunno how it should be done, but it needs to : they simply roll on everything - IG assassins have abit too much power in their hands (with commanders nerf, it would go ok) : OS any infantry type, and being spammed for anti-commanders - nerf abit deamons turrets : range / power / durabilty too stronk - nerf deamons teching speed or relic units : their end game comes too soon with powerfull units - eldar needs more power against anti-elite / heavy-vehicule units : they struggle against any end game units (paladins / baneblade like and heavier) - SM, sisters, tau, IDH, orks, chaos, dark eldar are balanced (by their units/techs) as they are now IMO thats pretty much what came to my mind atm. I'll agree with Neku changes overall. really insisting on the commanders nerf though Edited by: MiniCloud |
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| Jun 25 2015 Anchor | ||
MiniCloud wrote: If you want the commander nerf just play with no commander wargear wincondition. Also i dont see nids as very OP, as early game they are litterally insta stomped by turrets, and later game they have resource problems unless your good at managing econ. Daemon Teching speed comes at the cost of their tiers being extremely expensive. Not sure about eldar, ill have to look into that. Other than that i agree, except chaos needs a spell cooldown increase. |
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| Jun 25 2015 Anchor | ||
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IDH, sisters and chaos balanced? what a joke. I guess you have not seen an experienced player use them because they have some major op crap that makes them extremely difficult to fight against. IG vindicares are OP and too effective vs commanders and buildings, they should be limited to 1-3 and that's still more than enough to kill even the most elite infantry units/ destroy buildings with a few shots. Also the IG command titan is crazy strong and it could require 500-700 relic points to purchase. Commanders are fine as they are, I don't see them being op but the problem is that less experienced players refuse to use them and just complain about how effective commanders are (when upgraded) If you don't like commanders then restrict them. Daemon turrets too durable and do 2 much damage? you cant compared the daemon turret damage to Tau, chaos (shrines/god related turrets) or just about any ones super turrets especially nid turrets which are the cheap and hands down annoying with the free spore production and spore barrage ability that destroys everything easily and from a long distance. The daemon turret has a long build time and does like no damage with out its upgrades you shouldn't have a problem destroying them but i would say their range is a bit on the long side. On that not what happened to the restrict defenses wincondition? I see that every race has OP a few things OP about them so its more or less balanced, most of the problems I see are inexperienced players not knowing how to counter the crap others throw at them. |
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| Jun 25 2015 Anchor | ||
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I think UA is meant to be played be without restrictions, so I do think there is something to be done with commanders (at least that) @Neku seems pretty well explained, so I would agree on your changes x) @void
explaining would help to understand why :/ and I'm only talking about on my opinion, no need to take it that bad ...
I did agree on that, unfortunaly, its their best (and almost only) way to deal against single durable units such as upgraded commanders
I didnt say all their stats were wrong, but their overall effectivness is making them strong, so something has to go down and was then talking about either range, dmg or durability
Only thing I can't agree on, It's not very funny to play THB with only commanders fighting each others waiting for uber titans. Their abilities literally kill entire armies and that can be reached pretty fast. So it would be a war about who has the best commander ? because I also think some commanders are way better than others. I didn't install 4Gb for 2 units I'd like having armies and commanders, but if so, I have underupgraded commanders as I bought some units, so I would definitly be loosing wich is kinda stupid. Armies should be able to deal with commanders in some way (other then spamming snipers all around), and nerfing commanders (stats OR upgrades OR snowballing ...) seems to be the best way to let us play the WHOLE mod. its frustrating to always loosing to a 2 men army, really. I played some many games, and this is just my humble opinion, no blaming D: Edited by: MiniCloud |
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| Jun 26 2015 Anchor | ||
MiniCloud wrote: IDH Dreadknight spam and global ability spam is still an easy win. IDH tech very fast and dreadknight are cheap and you can make them at T3 which is under 5mins. Can get a dreadknight in about 10mins or so (depending on the resources) and ruin every ones hq... they run and can quickly teleport good luck stopping them. Sisters... immortal command squad (as long as your have some faith) that's highly effective vs everything and spawn mini angels that also destroy everything. Chaos can win using sorcerer grand spells (the sacrifice ability alone destroys armies) which have a very short cool downs and there is also the plague marine rush which is OP because they have about the same durability as terminators but have a larger squad size and available early game. |
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| Jun 26 2015 Anchor | ||
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allright, so about dreadknight, it has been utterly nerfed, so I think the problem isn't in the unit anymore, more in the IDH teching speed. I agree that the no-tier upgrade makes it so they can rush high level tier units. Add tier upgrades, but makes the schemas researches abit faster in return maybe, or somethign like that. But something is wrong there, so I would agree. Sisters command squad and sorcerer are commanders, plus, I would like to add the lictor alpha and deamons have pretty awsome ones too, as some of the most powerfull commanders, and did I tell you I think commanders are OP ? I think I forgot that xD *joke*. So yeah, I was talking about races, and not commanders when it comes to balance, since I still think commanders in general needs balance/nerf (AND their high levels ability aswell). It always comes back to commanders somehow. So again, do something with them (I'll be annoying on this !). dunno about plague marines, so I'll give you the point there. I thinks that all it would need for me. Edited by: MiniCloud |
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| Jun 26 2015 Anchor | ||
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-VoidLight wrote
Are you trying to used and saying? Now Where look SOB is the weakest race in THB. Looking good is not bad. but This is meaningless if the fatal drawbacks. -VoidLight wrote
No matter how the performance is not good except it something else perished. and even so overcome by no means insignificant way. Conclusions, even if there are many scams parts, there is no meaning of fun ways to win. Variety of ways to induce a strategy it is important to win. But opinion IDH, it was not bad Edited by: yaranaikANG |
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| Jun 26 2015 Anchor | ||
I'll have to see a plague marine rush before i believe that exists. They are tier 1, need an extra building and are extremely expensive for the tier. Sure they're damn hard to kill if upgraded, but they dont really do all that much damage. They are certainly usefull, i just can't see how you would be able to do any kind of "rush" with them Edited by: mbjo |
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. And I suggested to nerf their snowballing, that means that they still can get as strong but not as fast as they can now.
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