Excessive "Turtle/Defensive" AI Thread - Ultimate Apocalypse Mod (DOW SS) for Dawn of War

Since the launch of 1.88.5, I've been noticing that the AI have been getting alittle too excessive with "turtling" their units to where they just don't go on the attack.

They literally sit there until they're attacked and it's been a frustrating experience to play lately.

I've been noticing this trend for races that have some sort of Shield Generator building(Tau or SM) or any buildings that give off HP regen(Tyranids for example).

It's been a stressing experience to try and win matches if you're the only one that goes on offense whilst the friendly AI just derp to defense.

What cause the AI to get so derpy like this?

Side note: I've been playing on Harder difficulty and higher if this has nay influence on the AI.

What win conditions used? Map?

For testing in UA, I always use Apoc Rules+Annihilation and that's it: anything else its almost impossible to code AI for as the logic cannot properly detect many Win Condition settings (by design). I also play on HARD AI as its 1:1 with a human player AND always on maps with lots of space because UA has 3x more buildings and ZERO buffer space to build em so its waayyy easy to choke/bottleneck the AI as we don't have the ability to more logically place buildings except for around Cap points and the main HQ. So play on maps with LOTS of room.. same diff? Should not be.. I never see the UA AI ever turtle.. ever... they always now just go on the onslaught.

thudo wrote:

What win conditions used? Map?

For testing in UA, I always use Apoc Rules+Annihilation and that's it: anything else its almost impossible to code AI for as the logic cannot properly detect many Win Condition settings (by design).

That explains why, whenever I've always done the Assassinate win condition, the AI just sends their commander into the thick of it... a shame, I always liked the concept of what win condition.

Still, since I too have seen the AI sit back and relax from time to time (generally when I load a save file, which seems to mess up their AI somehow), I'll have to do some testing to report this issue...

Apoc Rules + Annihilation is what I play all the time with this mod.

Map don't matter either. Whether it's 2v2 or even 8v8, they eventually go turtle mode mid-late game no matter what.

> That explains why, whenever I've always done the Assassinate win condition, the AI just sends their commander into the thick of it... a shame, I always liked the > concept of what win condition.

Wut? No he does not. Assassinate specifically keeps ALL Commanders (those designated to be Assassinated) for all UA factions back @ home or runs away just like the Adv. vanilla AI since 2006. Which UA factions does this specifically happen to? I checked: none should be impacted as the Assassinate code works 100%!

> Map don't matter either. Whether it's 2v2 or even 8v8, they eventually go turtle mode mid-late game no matter what.

Hmmm... that was fixed... no clue why now its happening again.... grrr...

thudo wrote:

Wut? No he does not. Assassinate specifically keeps ALL Commanders (those designated to be Assassinated) for all UA factions back @ home or runs away just like the Adv. vanilla AI since 2006. Which UA factions does this specifically happen to? I checked: none should be impacted as the Assassinate code works 100%!

Never tried doing it with UA, but with base Dawn of War, every time I tried it they'd soon just send their Commander in and get them killed. Get an 8-player free-for-all with one player and seven AIs and they just kill each other off like flies. Might have been a product of the difficulty I was playing on, but that's always been my experience. I'll test it now, though.

Edited by: CorvaVespera

Then you are not using our Adv. AI 3.20 we last released for that last SS patch in 2009. That was fixed many MANY years ago.

What about Extermination Win Condition?

It's similar to Annihilation Win Condition only that you have to kill ALL units/buildings rather than just units/unit production buildings.

Will that fix the issue or is it something to do with the mod itself?

Edited by: SpartanofApproval

Curious - what is wrong with Extermination win condition? AI would have absolutely nothing to do with that as its controlled via SCAR which is outside the AI's realm of operation. AI works "on-top" of the code (AE and SCAR) not make it.

thudo wrote:

Then you are not using our Adv. AI 3.20 we last released for that last SS patch in 2009. That was fixed many MANY years ago.

Does it not come with the mod?

With UA it does.

thudo wrote:

With UA it does.

Which drives my point home that standard DoW AI doesn't know how to properly deal with Assassinate. Or at least, back in the versions I tried it. Just did a quick match in SS and they seemed competant enough, although they still kept their Command Squad in the fight while I hammered away at them...

You'll forgive me if I don't understand but the Assassinate Wincondition and the latest 3.20 AI's use of it has been long since tweaked and vetted since 2008-ish: AI keeps the Commander designated for Assassination by the SCAR CODE away from Combat completely. In fact, it actually hides away furthest from the enemy which is actually quite damn cool to see as your main forces keep you back, if you get closer the Commander under the Assassination warning keeps moving the opposite direction as much as it can. Works quite brilliantly really.

Well, that wasn't what happened when I tried it. In fairness it was a small map and I had them surrounded, but I was only just at the edge of their base, with most buildings not even in sight, and then kinda just sent their commander back and forth a little. As for 2008, well, I've had DoW since it first came out, which is probably how long ago I really tried Assassinate.

I'll try it with UA. Like I said, I was using it with base Soulstorm, nothing more.

Well its map dependant.. of course if there is NO WAY OUT for the AI Commander under Assassinate WinConditions then absolutely what else can be done? Only so much hiding one can do if all bases are surrounded.