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So this interesting debate occurred in the debating society that I myself wish to discuss.
We know it's possible to be "good without God" but when talking about "morality" this is subjective to everyone. Take abortion for example, it's widely debated upon by everyone who each have an individual opinion on when it's morally right (if at all).
But I think one of the more interesting points raised in the debate was that in some societies, even today, there are bad acts we consider morally wrong but aren't considered morally wrong there.
The argument in the image could easily be applied to subjective morality. "I think hitting kids is okay if you're their parents and if it's to discipline them, see? I just said it's okay and in my society it is. Any who question go to prison. That's how it works." So I think subjective morality isn't real morality, it is divisive, probably causing more hostility in human history than anything else (ironically something that those opposed to religion overlook) and this human morality is shown to be ever changing with the times.
True morality should be constant, never changing. It is something that must be a real thing and comes from God. Moral realism does exist.
1. Nearly universally across human cultures, there exist the same basic standards of morality. In addition, there exist in all cultures truly altruistic acts which lead to no genetic benefit.
2. There exists a nearly universal human intuition that certain things are objectively right or wrong.
3. The majority of people who explicitly deny the existence of objective morality still act as if objective morality exists.
Whilst there have been societies that have rejected objective morality from time to time and apply their own morality (see Nazi state), overall common moral values seem universal. Naturalism cannot explain this. Without God, this morality shouldn't exist.
More here in the forum: Moddb.com
I'll just copy and paste what I wrote in that debate here:
Christopher Hitchens in his debate with William Lane Craig was asked to condemn bestiality twice, each time time he refused.
It's funny that these atheists go on about being "morally good without God" but many of their prominent spokesmen that they listen to as gospel truth all refuse to condemn practices such as these. Perhaps because they think these things such as bestiality are "okay" or perhaps because they know that without a god who has produced a moral system, there is no such thing as morality and therefore no basis for atheism to condemn anything as "evil" since evil can't exist in an atheist perspective.
In certain situations this includes killing, robbery and other crimes objective morality would always condemn. In this logic, if survival is the purpose then all things that we consider wrong now can become "right" by this reasoning if the world's situation changes (say during a riot or war).
I think that's the point here, that without a god, there is no such thing as good or evil, morality is simply decided here by the cultural standards of the time in this worldview.
As for what you're saying about naturalism, naturalism fails to explain for many things that exist in the real world. It also fails to account for the origin of the universe without resorting to an impossibility. It's a flawed world-view that just doesn't work despite how many atheists wish for it to be true.
I find the utter religiosity of the atheists, agnostics and deists in naturalism completely astonishing but such is the folly of fools.
This is "naturalism's argument for morality" from the center for inquiry:
This is self-defeating. If the culture teaches "bad morality" then this argues that it's good simply because it's acceptable in the culture.
So this person's argument is pretty much "I think [X thing], see? And if you don't agree with me, go to prison. That's how it works."
"I AM THE LAW!" much?
"I AM THE LAW!" pretty much sums that argument on morality up.
Thank God we don't live in that society.
YOU BETRAYED THE LAW!
LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW!