MMO or SIMPLE GAME Thread

I know this has been asked a thousand times here on indie db.

But now I just want vote on this to prove a point.

Should a Indie team start by trying to create a Big MMO or
Should a Indie team start by trying to create a Simple Innovative Game

Is their goal to actually release a game?

Yes to release the game and have it be a huge hit.

Voting won't prove anything. It's a million times easier to just point at the number of successful simpler indie games versus the number of successful simpler indie MMOs.

I think the answer is too obvious to give the poll a meaning, but if you want to prove a point, so be it. I'd like to point one thing out though.
The fact that probably all people will choose the simple innovative game doesn't mean that indies will never be able to make a decent MMO. It just suggests that people believe the average indie team to be more successful with a small than a big game. The average, per definition, holds true for most cases, but doesn't stand for 100% of the cases. It's not indicative of any indie team, and thus renders such a "yes or no" poll, that lacks any more specific information, useless. It merely proves what we believe the average indie team should do, nothing about the team you're referring to in particular.

That being said, it'd be considered a surprise if they made a full-fledged MMO as a small indie team, but for it to be a "huge hit" it'd have to be beyond anything we've seen on this site, probably of the success caliber of Minecraft (but of course with much more content and work). And let's be honest, everybody is still talking about Minecraft precisely because its indie success was so unexpected and unprecedented.

even for AAA it's tough to make a successful mmo

Im just trying to prove and and get some locals to agree, whether out of observation or personal experience that indie team have a much better chance at making something small than a MMO.

@ambershee, people on indie db will have good idea about this and I just want their take.

@Pabo, yes it is well possible, but requires a team that can be dedicated and works intensely. What im trying to prove is that people on indie db will agree it is easier for a indie team to achieve something by developing something small and not something that elaborate and it sounds like you are agreeing.

That's exactly my point CG-3D. Not impossible, but a very hard and risky undertaking. Like you said, it's not about what's possible and what isn't, but where the team has better chances.

I would say make innovative game, but fit into missing genre's gap. Acctually you can start with a simple game and make it a huge one in a time.

Should a Indie team start by trying to create a Big MMO or
Should a Indie team start by trying to create a Simple Innovative Game
Personally I find making Indie Multiplayers pointless. Sure, it's a great learning curve, but in terms of audience, it's generally small (most of the time; there are exceptions). Unless you really get some push from magazines and create a big online buzz etc (i.e. Hawken), or are a well established Indie team with a couple of games under your belt, then most multiplayers will just die. For an MMO, times that by 100. I don't understand why small, new indie teams undertake MMO's. There is a ridiculous amount of work involved not just from the game end, but the server and network support side; which a lot of new teams don't really have the experience in dealing with.

New Indie teams should ALWAYS start with a simple game. Forget innovative for the moment. Just make something fun and playable and complete. Failing that, focus on the single player!

I dont get why people want to over-saturate the market with MMO's(as if it already isn't over-saturated), do something unique that sincerely you'd be interested in playing just not another damn MMO.

Tetsuo3 wrote: Personally I find making Indie Multiplayers pointless.

Not all multiplayer games require an online community. There are plenty (such as strategy games) that are often played between friends.

You should ALWAYS start small. An MMO is the hardest and most expensive game project to make and if it isn't your 6th or 7th title, and you have at least 2 or 3 titles with multiplayer, your MMO will fail.

Noob game developers come onto the Unity3D forums all the time wanting to make the next big MMO.. they get laughed at.. seriously.
I have worked on 5 published game titles and we're about to release our first fairly big title, and I still have a lot to learn about multiplayer and network programming before I'm comfortable making an MMO.

Yeah thanks, my point has now been made, thanks

Just think of how many small innovative games you could make in the same time and budget as one big MMO. With more games comes more opportunities to a successful hit. And as a new studio you will learn from your mistakes with every new game.

Part of the problem with indies and MMOGs comes from what I like to call "ooh-shiny syndrome". They see all the MMOGs out there and decide that's what they want to make, except they decide right off the bat to include 100 classes, 50 races, 1000 swords, an epic storyline, and a world as big as the Earth. They fail because they don't realize that those MMOGs out there started out with 2 classes, 1 race, 10 swords, no story, and an area the size of Wisconsin, to continue the metaphor.

Case in point, someone on IndieDB (https://www.indiedb.com/games/elemental-world-part-1-rise-of-the-guardians ) is literally trying to be everything (and F2P too!! /snark)

TerranAmbassador wrote: Part of the problem with indies and MMOGs comes from what I like to call "ooh-shiny syndrome". They see all the MMOGs out there and decide that's what they want to make, except they decide right off the bat to include 100 classes, 50 races, 1000 swords, an epic storyline, and a world as big as the Earth. They fail because they don't realize that those MMOGs out there started out with 2 classes, 1 race, 10 swords, no story, and an area the size of Wisconsin, to continue the metaphor.

Case in point, someone on IndieDB (https://www.indiedb.com/games/elemental-world-part-1-rise-of-the-guardians ) is literally trying to be everything (and F2P too!! /snark)

Pf, nothing against this one:

Edited by: iqew

Its going to take months to create content, texture animate, polish to fill that area. I dont understand why people cant realise that ONE DOES NOT SIMPLE DEVELOP A GAME, its a shitload of work

Spoilered for thread sanity:
You know CGO how we do it. I know you still have concerns about out Team as we are relatively unknown, but in my opinion our Team including you is incredibly talented and can do really cool stuff. Also Sirius didn't come from the "oooh-shiny"-syndrome thats been referred here. Sirius is my life's dream, the one reaseon I learned coding for. The one reason I work my ASS off to get more features for the graphics guys in. The one reason I know its gonna succeed.
IOTY Rank #95 of those 6,8k participators speaks for itself.
Call me a dreamer or a loser, but I know what I can do. And the upcoming online playing will prove it. In terms of LotR-memes: I am Frodo, but couldn't have made it this far without you, Rat, Walnut, Luminosis, Ash, Jayson, Matt, Petar and everyone else to come.

I agree on the terms of newer, inexperienced teams that shouldn't take up such a huge task.

Edited by: vektorDex

This isnt about Sirius, I get really irritated when I see complex indie game with a walloftext features list from a "team" with no real experience or anything.
I just hope that this thread here will help them realise that even if they think they can do it and no matter how motivated they are no one has a year to work like a slave and get no pay.

Really im not reffering this to Sirius anymore, the first post was to prove my point I wanted to make, but after that its generally how I feel about indie devs and projects.

CGO wrote: This isnt about Sirius, I get really irritated when I see complex indie game with a walloftext features list from a "team" with no real experience or anything.
I just hope that this thread here will help them realise that even if they think they can do it and no matter how motivated they are no one has a year to work like a slave and get no pay.

Really im not reffering this to Sirius anymore, the first post was to prove my point I wanted to make, but after that its generally how I feel about indie devs and projects.

I don't think it's really going to help much, because when people read such threads they might agree with you, but won't identify themselves with the people mentioned in the thread.

"I know it's really hard to create an MMO and it shouldn't be a first project for a beginner team ... but I'm more clever than everyone else!" is pretty much the attitude lots of people tend to have. It's even the attitude I had when I started my project and I don't think it's a bad thing, because it makes people start projects and get experience.

However, I'm wondering right now ... CGO, you're a team member of Sirius? - Which is trying to become an MMO and now you started a thread that wants to prove that MMOs are pretty much the most complex games you can create and one should rather avoid such projects? Or did I just associated something wrong here and you're no team member of their project?

Personally, I believe everyone should start whereever they want, it's just important to stick to the one project for as long as it may take to finish the project. Throughout the process everyone of the team is going to learn more and more about game development. Ultimately, the team is going to be forced to cut down content and ideas until they reach a point where it's somewhat realistic. Every project is doable, but the focus should always be on the foundations until they're 100% finished. Then you can move on to more exciting things, that's a rule I use and not only for game projects, but for any project in general.

Edited by: iqew

iQew: Yes, CGO is "one of us".
We had an argument some time ago if it wouldn't be better to throw away seven years of work to just restart at some simple game and a result was this thread I assume to prove his points.

TheD3X wrote: iQew: Yes, CGO is "one of us".
We had an argument some time ago if it wouldn't be better to throw away seven years of work to just restart at some simple game and a result was this thread I assume to prove his points.

Seven years of work would never be wasted, the experience gotten in that time is very precious. I can understand that it's frustrating sometimes. With our game we went for a handful of very drastic changes and it was always for the better and helped us a great deal. I think that before starting an MMO game, it's definitely best to have done a few small ones, just to understand the full cycle of game development, especially the last 15%.

With the decision to create an MMO, you basically decide to do an extreme version. Everything multiplies and if there's no experience in finishing a game properly and planning out the last stages of development, it can definitely result in quite a disaster, as drastic changes are also going to be extreme.

Short story even shorter: I think that creating an MMO is definitely possible by an indie studio, even if the people are unexperienced, but I'd highly recommend not do it or at least develop several smaller games before going MMO.

Thanks for repeating everything I said.

Any of the two it's ok, but the second maybe a wise choise to arrive at the first option