Those Things About Arcade Flight Games You Hate Thread - Vector Thrust

Personally, I have a few complaints when it comes to Arcadey flight games. It's not the games themselves - just the things they say or include, so I thought it might be good to have a thread dedicated to those loathing-worthy statements and cliches. In no particular order, my personal gripes are:

Machineguns - Most modern jets do not have a machinegun, if they did have a machinegun, they probably have machineguns. Modern fighters have autocannons - and even WW2 fighters used autocannons. If the dialogue says 'Use your machinegun!' I really, really cringe. Doubly so if a loading screen states this...

Stating the obvious for loading screen quotes - There's nothing I hate more than the loading screen quotes for Ace Combat Infinity. Instead of being tips for advanced play, or genuinely good suggestions or tactics, they're instead, almost always, idiotic lines attributed as quotes to certain characters in the game, as if it matters coming from them when the simple inclusion practically insults my intelligence. You mean to tell me if I go to slow I might stall? No shit, Sherlock.

Forced Tutorials or Tutorial-Esque Missions that can't be skipped - Again, Ace Combat Infinity has like, the worst three starting missions I've ever played. Most people who've played these types of games can pick them up and run with them. There's the new users, yes, but instead of a solid tutorial experience where there's no real chance to fail, but what feels like the genuine possibility of doing so, is what presents a good tutorial. I can think of several action games which do not have so much as a hint of a tutorial, but are widely regarded as some of the best ever made (basically anything made by Clover)

Unable to sequence break - Double edged sword. Here, I have to admit, it's necessary for boss fights to some degree, however, again, with forced tutorial missions - what happens when you're already at the exfil area and the mission hasn't advanced past the state of 'Get to this point!' Again, also a fault of Ace Combat Infinity.

Unable to fly outside of a 'Normal' control set up - Basically, those joke helicopter missions from Assault Horizon in a nutshell, or the entire Air Conflicts series.

So, what grinds your guys' gears?

Edited by: Boogie_Van

I think you are looking at it as an arcade flight veteran. Many people dont have that experience.
I still remember my first time at Ace Combat. In many situations i ended not knowing where was up and down.
Tutorials will be helpful for new people. And even the explanation about concepts like stall or locking on would be new for someone.
About the more technical stuff, I still dont know enough about aircraft to complain about that kind of stuff.
What I think could be really improved is the scripting as you said. Many times I saw myself repeating the same sequence again and again when I failed a mission (like that level in Ace Combat 5 where you had to destroy radars exactly at the same time as your pals).
More open ended missions with different aproaches would make the experience much more varied and rewarding.

KnX wrote: I think you are looking at it as an arcade flight veteran. Many people dont have that experience.
I still remember my first time at Ace Combat. In many situations i ended not knowing where was up and down.
Tutorials will be helpful for new people. And even the explanation about concepts like stall or locking on would be new for someone.
About the more technical stuff, I still dont know enough about aircraft to complain about that kind of stuff.
What I think could be really improved is the scripting as you said. Many times I saw myself repeating the same sequence again and again when I failed a mission (like that level in Ace Combat 5 where you had to destroy radars exactly at the same time as your pals).
More open ended missions with different aproaches would make the experience much more varied and rewarding.

Good points.

I must stress that I feel those tutorial experiences should be skippable, but included, and that they should not make up part of the actual 'campaign' of a game. There should be an understanding that not everyone is new - and not everyone is a veteran. There's a sweet spot there, but tutorials are often shoe-horned into complete missions which makes for awkward writing and dialogue.

Boogie_Van wrote: Stating the obvious for loading screen quotes - There's nothing I hate more than the loading screen quotes for Ace Combat Infinity. Instead of being tips for advanced play, or genuinely good suggestions or tactics, they're instead, almost always, idiotic lines attributed as quotes to certain characters in the game, as if it matters coming from them when the simple inclusion practically insults my intelligence. You mean to tell me if I go to slow I might stall? No shit, Sherlock.

This point is also my pet peeve, but with all type of games.
I remember seeing something like "you can evade by pressing the defend button while moving" while I was in the loading for the last boss fight.
These loading tips are something that I´ve been planing to add for quite some time, specially because they are quite useful while there is no proper tutorial.
But what amazes me is because I think it takes no effort to make them a bit more smarter.

for example:
in the first sorties: show controls/explain hud
if the player has killed less than 10 aircrafts with missiles: show how the lock system works/ shows the best way to engage a fighter
if the player has killed less than 10 aircrafts with guns: show how to use guns/ shows how to apply lead to the target
...
if the player has killed less than 10 aircrafts while remaining completely undetected: show how to work with the stealth system
...
etc

As soon these requirements are met, the game will stop showing the respective tips, if there is nothing else to explain the game will stop using this and use only other types of loading screens

I believe the most insulting of ACI's loading quotes was quite likely this:

"The radar is located at the bottom-left of the screen."

Not even making it up.

timeSymmetry wrote: But what amazes me is because I think it takes no effort to make them a bit more smarter.

I agree with you entirely, but for the quote above, it's still mind-blowing...

Edited by: Wheaton_Adams

I think a little music would certainly make the loading screens bearable, or heck, tell the storyline alongside the loading screen - If the latter worked with World In Conflict, it would most certainly work with VT.

Since it takes about 5-6 seconds at most for the game to load a mission, I think music isn't required.

MyHatismyFriend wrote: Since it takes about 5-6 seconds at most for the game to load a mission, I think music isn't required.

Good point.

Machineguns - Most modern jets do not have a machinegun, if they did have a machinegun, they probably have machineguns. Modern fighters have autocannons - and even WW2 fighters used autocannons. If the dialogue says 'Use your machinegun!' I really, really cringe. Doubly so if a loading screen states this...

It was more or less caused of mistranslation, but I remember this almost always happen back during PSX era. Remember when people call any assault rifle they put in their game as machine gun? Remember when M16 or AK47 still classified as machine gun in video games?

If it's from ACI, I think it's a mistranslation problem.

Stating the obvious for loading screen quotes - There's nothing I hate more than the loading screen quotes for Ace Combat Infinity. Instead of being tips for advanced play, or genuinely good suggestions or tactics, they're instead, almost always, idiotic lines attributed as quotes to certain characters in the game, as if it matters coming from them when the simple inclusion practically insults my intelligence. You mean to tell me if I go to slow I might stall? No shit, Sherlock.

That's AAA video game problem for ya. Typical AAA vidya gaems putting pointless 'hints' as loading screen is one of the most hideous thing in 7th generation VG.
On the opposite side, see Spec Ops: The Line for "How to make a proper loading quotes". You should know why.

Forced Tutorials or Tutorial-Esque Missions that can't be skipped - Again, Ace Combat Infinity has like, the worst three starting missions I've ever played. Most people who've played these types of games can pick them up and run with them. There's the new users, yes, but instead of a solid tutorial experience where there's no real chance to fail, but what feels like the genuine possibility of doing so, is what presents a good tutorial. I can think of several action games which do not have so much as a hint of a tutorial, but are widely regarded as some of the best ever made (basically anything made by Clover)

Maybe a *disguised* tutorial like the first 2 missions in AC5 can remedy it. Otherwise that's for what a standalone tutorial mode is for.

Since it takes about 5-6 seconds at most for the game to load a mission, I think music isn't required.

Meh, I could've wished a longer loading so that we can put COD-esque "briefing" videos while waiting, but whatever.

On topic: As arcadey as they tried to make flight games, I seriously hate when all planes handles like bricks while the AI completely cheats you and outmaneuver you all the time, EVEN WITH THE SAME PLANE. Yes, I'm looking at you, AFDS.
Also DFM and mandatory DFM.

Edited by: Nergal01

Nergal01 wrote: On topic: As arcadey as they tried to make flight games, I seriously hate when all planes handles like bricks while the AI completely cheats you and outmaneuver you all the time, EVEN WITH THE SAME PLANE. Yes, I'm looking at you, AFDS.

In VT, the A.I. can only do what a human player can do. So that means no AC LOLturns or ROFLrolls.

Well that's Japanese design for you!

Don't think that it would really change whether it be Japanese or Western developers. It's just a problem that a lot of lazily designed games have. Even some fairly rigorously designed games have that problem. I mean, would we appreciate the Yellow Squadron as much if they couldn't cobra since there's no way to cobra in the game normally? Do we dislike Pixy's airburst weapon because it doesn't follow the same rules as the one you get in game? I dislike the Assault Horizon method of scripting missions as much as anybody, but I can understand the choices of some of the older games in the Ace Combat series.

Also, I'm pretty sure that most AI will be fairly stupid in comparison to the average player in most flight games, so a little cheating is something that sorta gonna have to happen to make them a threat, unless you like arbitrary difficulty like getting headshot by perfectly accurate, high level bots in some older fps games. I mean, unless TimeS puts a load of time into writing algorithms that vary based on aircraft stats and weapons carried, we're probably not gonna see anything perfectly non-cheaty any time soon.

Personally, my biggest pet peeve with arcade flight sims is probably story at the moment. Speaking as a PS2 era Ace Combat fan, I've grown out of all of the stories except for 04's. Zero and 5 come across as a little too preachy, partially due to poor translation and voice acting, but also because they slathered on that anti-war message pretty damn thick. I mean, I still get tingles when I hear the Zero theme and Unsung War, but man, some of the dialogue got pretty ridiculous, and the reasoning behind some of the actions even more so. 04 on the other hand felt of a smaller scale, and had a more personal, more intimate focus, with the lion's share of the story focused on the relationship between Yellow 13 and the boy. I can't say I particularly cared too much about any characters in 5 or Zero. Not all stories have to be action adventures to be engaging.

No matter how 5's story filled with anti-war shenanigans and silly moral speeches being delivered among Wardog crews, I still find it to be slightly more bearable than AC4's RADIO FAILURE, AC6's DANCE WITH TEH ENGELS, and of course Bishop's damn spamming.

On topic: Unlimited ammunitions (basically anything by Transmission/Trickstar, Rebel Raiders). Sure it's fun as hell spamming whatever at your arsenal like crazy but that kills the tacticool part of ammo conservation.

Edited by: Nergal01

timeSymmetry wrote: This point is also my pet peeve, but with all type of games.
I remember seeing something like "you can evade by pressing the defend button while moving" while I was in the loading for the last boss fight.
These loading tips are something that I´ve been planing to add for quite some time, specially because they are quite useful while there is no proper tutorial.
But what amazes me is because I think it takes no effort to make them a bit more smarter.

for example:
in the first sorties: show controls/explain hud
if the player has killed less than 10 aircrafts with missiles: show how the lock system works/ shows the best way to engage a fighter
if the player has killed less than 10 aircrafts with guns: show how to use guns/ shows how to apply lead to the target
...
if the player has killed less than 10 aircrafts while remaining completely undetected: show how to work with the stealth system
...
etc

As soon these requirements are met, the game will stop showing the respective tips, if there is nothing else to explain the game will stop using this and use only other types of loading screens

That, actually, is sort of sadly impressive given today's games. I would add to it that, for certain boss fights, if the player has restarted the mission, depending on the progress/checkpoints they've hit during that mission, they would get a hint pertaining to the mission at hand. Mission failure, again, could also present something, perhaps a tip for dealing with the particular enemy that shot them down. These shouldn't be 'Wait until the big red spot shows up!' but rather, 'Focusing on the anti-air around the target will make the final shot that much easier,' or 'Let your squadmate fire a missile - target the enemy Ace when he shows his hand to avoid it,' when someone's failed the same section repeatedly, so on and so forth. That said, I remember Omochao from the first Sonic Adventure, and I guess the second, telling me crap that either wasn't true, or was absolutely useless considering the progress I'd made before screwing up and losing a life. I mean, it was a nice thought, but it also got intelligence insultingly stupid - even as a stupid kid going 'Whooo, saaaaaniiiiic'. There's a very thin line to tread, there.

Regarding loading screens, if something has to/should be there, you can always include a 'Press any button to continue' after the screen has been loaded.

One of those funny things was when during the more pressing missions of Ace Combat 5, I found myself pretty well emptying my payload of what, normally, to me, seems like an impossible to use amount of missiles. Once or twice I fully ran out, looked down at the HUD, and went, '...Wait, what?'

My critiques for AC5/AC6's dialogue/story really comes down to the choice in canon aircraft, and the lack of the co-pilots who would fly with the squads as characters - it also makes more sense than having the god damn AWACS calling out your missile shots. Anti-war and all that aside, I did like AC5's story for one thing, you really felt like some sort of demon on the battlefield after enough missions.

That and Chopper had enough room to land on those highways away from the stadium. ;.;7

Edited by: Boogie_Van

Over G Fighters had the decency of adding co-pilots to particular aircraft, Boogie. And definitely, those highways could have been viable for Chopper - but what about traffic?

There were none visible and it would've been highly unlikely for their to have been traffic coming in or out, and it would've been interesting to guide your wingman in using you as an airspeed indicator - a trick I've had to pull off in DCS once. As cool as the whole sequence was up until he decided to crash the jet in an area where no one would be hurt - he had a RIO in his jet, which means his (their refusal - given that the RIO handles the ejection) cost the lives of not just one, but two airmen. It was just sort of a big plothole that killed off the best character in the game a major character, especially when an emergency landing was wholly possible. The canon aircraft in question being carrier-borne, so a rough landing is definitely not out of the question - it probably even wouldn't need being written off and could be returned to active duty after an overhaul.

Edited by: Boogie_Van

I see. But would Chopper been able to conduct an emergency landing on the highway and then escaped his craft before it exploded?

A semi-good example is Heroes of the Pacific where the game gives you an annoying-sounded gunner if you fly a bomber/anything with turret/torpedo.

Edited by: Nergal01

Over G's was at least helpful compared to Heroes of the Pacific.

It's just a nice touch, the consideration @ additional crew members.

And like I side, holy crap it makes more sense is cooler than the AWACS calling your shots out, really, but I suppose it's more expensive in the long run for something that may not be seen by quite a players if they just stick with single-seaters.

That and your wingman or RIO in USNF '94/'97, ATF, ATF: NATO Fighters.

My thoughts regarding enemy aircraft that can do imposibble move:

I've play many old games and weird japanese games and I can say that some boss (even miniboss) in that game can make impossible things that can make you throw your own PC. However, those things in my opinion is the one that keep making me play said games. Also you have special feeling if you can win against such unbalanced challenge.

Back when I play ACAH (Yea, I know the boss is scripted and that 4QAAM), while my friends can finish the campaign with F-22 or Terminator, I can brag to them that I can finished it with a puny Fulcrum. The same holds for any other genre, whether it will be racing, RPG, or anything else. In fact, that "cheating NPC" is the one that make me keep playing the same level so I can challenge myself, whether using weaker weapon or some kind of restriction.

One of my friend offer me playing early build of VT and being stupid I am, I try to challenge 10 aircraft at once with AI medium (I've yet to know what standard is medium according to VT). Needless to say, I got my ass kicked all the time, but that make me play for hours and it was a blast.

In fact, I can say that unbalanced/cheating/hax kind of AI is the one that makes arcade games... arcade.

Fulcrum-F wrote:
Back when I play ACAH (Yea, I know the boss is scripted and that 4QAAM), while my friends can finish the campaign with F-22 or Terminator, I can brag to them that I can finished it with a puny Fulcrum. The same holds for any other genre, whether it will be racing, RPG, or anything else. In fact, that "cheating NPC" is the one that make me keep playing the same level so I can challenge myself, whether using weaker weapon or some kind of restriction.
......

On an offtopic note, beating ACAH with MiG-29 wouldn't be hard. It is one of the best fighters, highly maneuverable and has QAAMs. Beat it with SU-24 or F-16F.

Fulcrum-F wrote:
In fact, I can say that unbalanced/cheating/hax kind of AI is the one that makes arcade games... arcade.

If you have the ability to use the boss character/vehicle in a game and you can't do the same tricks, things seem a bit hollow. If you can at least do most of them, then things are pretty alright.

Edited by: Boogie_Van