Does success justify everything? Thread

We live in a society that makes a difference between work and income. You can work much as an artist, yet you might never have an income. That's what happened to a lot of great writers from Rimbaud to Poe and across the centuries. A most recent example is P.K. Dick, who had to buy horsemeat from the dog shop, because he couldn't afford much else.
Among his more renown work are "Do Androids dream of Electric Sheep" (Blade Runner), "Minority Report", "Paycheck", "We can remember it for you wholesale" (Total Recall) and many more. So there is a New Classic, one of the greatest writers in American history, who died poor, like the inventor of the modern American short story: E.A. Poe.

So I ask - in a society, which measures the success of everybody by the money they got in the bank, where do we put arts and artists and is it a wonder we see so few genuinely interesting artists lately? Does success justify betraying your ideals and becoming a useful, but replacable, specialized member of society?

I have been working in advertising for years and I only quit, because I found it pointless to work only for money. I want to see my better ideas realised in film and not try to put someone else's stupid idea into story that makes people buy. Life is about originality and the more original you get the more people will get their own story out of what you write. It's like I'm writing in layers, some not even entirely comprehensible to myself.

So, here is another question: How can you survive as an artist in a world that lives on demand? How do you produce something that creates a demand for it by itself and what are those values represented in such a piece of art?

I feel success is something, which is made by the media these days. By TV shows and entertainers. It can be tailored, because it isn't ever made to last. If you genuinely feel and care about art this gives you an awkward feeling. You feel like your dumbed down to follow a predefined set of rules. This may help you become successful, but it won't last. And that is what "America's Next Topmodel" is about. It's not what being an artist is about...

Edited by: SinKing

It's one of those things that people will always see differently. People measure success in their own different ways based on their own ideals. A great many people will always see success in life based upon the accumulation of material wealth - after all, that's what the 'American Dream' is about, isn't it not; and wealth has always had a heavy influence on your standings within society, with other people; it affects your education, and what you can experience.

But being wealthy and educated isn't the be-all and end-all of everything. I'm lucky enough to be fairly well educated, although I have barely a penny to speak of. I know that ultimately, my career, my work and my financial status is one of my least priorities (although try explaining that to the girlfriend - or to your employer); and this is probably what's affecting my motivation to actually work at present. I much prefer to indulge in literature and the arts, and spending time with the one I care about.

Ultimately, as in any vocation, employment is always a means to an end, whether you enjoy it or not, and it's difficult to avoid it, since it's become a necessity for day-to-day survival. I'd also love to share my ideas, my knowledge and provide experiences for other people to enjoy - but I feel that's not necessarily what it takes to be successful as the majority would have it. It is however a personal aim, and whether or not I'm successful in that is another question entirely.

You can also question the motivation of any artist, but it probably won't get you anywhere. No artist is necessarily better or worse than another merely because one is using their art to pursue a career. Consider some of the more famous surrealists of our time; Dali, or Giger. Both of these people have proven inspirational to many, but don't also forget that both followed their noses and make a fairly successful career out of their artwork.

I think not so much about changing my vocation and doing something different from writing, but about finding a way of doing what I like and making money with it, without having to feel badly about it.

In my new writings I dropped a lot of issues that were of importance to me and made a swing towards full entertainment. Of course there is still a point or two to each story, but there is nothing to be learned from them. My old stories had some kind of morale and proof a philosophy. My new ones just work and use writing techniques and mechanism I became familiar with.

Was I a better artist when I wrote for the right reasons, but wrote the wrong things (advertsement). Or am I a better artist now that I write the wrong things for the right reasons(creativity)?

I guess in the end you can just hold on and hope quality will sustain. All these shows for the quick fame make me question, if there is any sense in becoming famous. I wouldn't want it that way, even if it was handed to me on a golden plate. I know that change is supposedly a good thing, bt change can also make you end up miserable and disillusioned.
The largest problem I have is that when I say "quality" I don't really know what that is. I have become so confused with the downfall of society that I don't know if I want to take my part in it. I don't know, if I want to be part of a society, which has moral and intellectual values I question. How to produce something lasting in a society that never has enough and dreams of yesterday's glory?

Edited by: SinKing

many people I know don't live for $$ & they're pretty happy. Many I know do & they always have a list of complaints.

but $$ has never been connected to how much work you put in, it's been connected to the need for the work you perform. Nobody NEEDS a painting. Everybody NEEDS water. In a mostly capitalist society the water would normally cost more vs the painting (depending on supply). Because people need water it will almost always be available @ varying costs depending on the need. A painting would be less available but cost less until the supply of needs is near fulfilled, then people fulfill their wants. In a more socialistic society the price of the water would be disconnected from the need (if it's regulated in some way) but it could also be very very low in value or very very high, not varying. The painting would be worth a lot less because, overall, people would have less to spend on it.

There's also been a shift in what people consider valuable. Years ago, the harder you worked in a given period the more $$ in general you'd earn. So a lazy person would earn less in a day vs someone who works tirelessly. Now it's more based on time, so a lazy person gets paid X & so does a hard working person.

So, here is another question: How can you survive as an artist in a world that lives on demand? How do you produce something that creates a demand for it by itself and what are those values represented in such a piece of art?

That's a very very easy question to answer (and I'm sure you know as you'd worked in advertising): make what people want. That's what they'll buy. There's two ways to do anything: A) do what is right or B) do what someone wants. Both can be the same but rarely are. The first one rarely brings in much $$ (again, since you were in advertising, you'd know telling a client they're dead wrong & what they want is completely wrong most likely means you'll loose that client. they're going by option B, a SMART client will go with A & trust the person they're paying to figure this out for them). Option A *IS* normally less popular BUT many times it's what advances society & persons.

TheHappyFriar wrote:
That's a very very easy question to answer (and I'm sure you know as you'd worked in advertising): make what people want. That's what they'll buy. There's two ways to do anything: A) do what is right or B) do what someone wants.

-> see, that is the problem and perhaps it's the reason, why I don't want to make advertisement any more. In order to get there (make what people want) I had to change. I had to learn to laugh about people, who are innocent and easily influenced (about 85% of man). I learned to lie to myself about my goals and justified everything by the money I made.

I know quite a few people (too few though), who are "doing what is right" and none of them has an ounce of success (2 already had films in cinema, but made little money). Since trends are so short-lived there is really no way to be part of a trend and create something lasting. And I don't want to write what so many publishers tell me to. I was told to write a thriller, because thrillers always sell and are good sources for TV-productions.

The reason, why I hesitate to do what I'm told and write what I know what will sell is, because I feel like I took up a responsibility when I found out that most of all I want to write in life. I made a commitment to all the great people, who I admire for their skills and patience in writing. I don't want to betray an ideal, which gives me a sense in life for the sake of earning money and feeding the family. Yet, in the society it seems incredibly difficult to develop, because you either cannot afford it, or you're too tired from your dayjob.
So, in the end, who do we strive for, if we won't do it for money? If you make independant cinema you suck, if you make commercial AAA-movies you suck the more. In the end, my problem lies with purpose. I don't want to be an entertainer, only. I want to make a point and stick to it; show that life isn't something you should bend and change to meet every trend. Life should be about development of ideas and freedom of thought.

In the end you become someone, who you really feel was made on top of someone better, underneath. I wouldn't even have noticed, but I have good friends and I understand now, in retrospective how much things changed. For success you have to sacrifice many things, but I don't want to lie for it any more. There must be a way to combine the good and the valuable into a package, which can be sold without the feeling you had to screw someone (yourself) over for it.

Edited by: SinKing

Perhaps you can have something good, and then ask customers if they want to donate to the cause, voluntarily. That way, you don't feel like you're doing anything for money, and you're not screwing people over, but you still get money if they really enjoy what you're doing. Although, this requires dedication, so I can't say for sure whether or not you may meet its demands.

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~Toyoka's Gaming Channel~

You can't live on donations, however. Given the choice, most people simply won't donate, unless pressed to do so.

ambershee wrote: You can't live on donations, however. Given the choice, most people simply won't donate, unless pressed to do so.

thats called a purchase...

ambershee wrote: You can't live on donations, however. Given the choice, most people simply won't donate, unless pressed to do so.

Absolutely 100% agree... for years we have had people requesting a tshirt store.. and we open one and what happens? We sell only a handful of shirts. Likewise with the jobs board, we ask for a $10 donation and so far more than 99% of people just ignore this. It would be wonderful if people would donate, but the reality is they don't - so we resort to advertisements to keep us afloat. Hopefully we can roll out other services that will help prop us up.

Edited by: INtense!

Actually - I would have donated - but your card system doesn't/didn't work

I think there are many ways to be successful - its comes down to value system and priorities. Usually I find a clear set of priorities - a clear idea of what you believe to be important - results in successful achievement of the goal. Unfortunately, life has a way of confusing and complicating this fact. Its easy to be swayed, to be seduced by one idea or another, to want too many things at once, to give up hope.

And sometimes we find our original priorities are no longer the ones we want - or need. But maybe that's ok.

INtense! wrote:

ambershee wrote: You can't live on donations, however. Given the choice, most people simply won't donate, unless pressed to do so.

Absolutely 100% agree... for years we have had people requesting a tshirt store.. and we open one and what happens? We sell only a handful of shirts. Likewise with the jobs board, we ask for a $10 donation and so far more than 99% of people just ignore this. It would be wonderful if people would donate, but the reality is they don't - so we resort to advertisements to keep us afloat. Hopefully we can roll out other services that will help prop us up.

I tryed to donate when i used it and it didn't accept mastercard. (about 3 or 4 months ago)

Edited by: NGS616

SinKing wrote: We live in a society that makes a difference between work and income. You can work much as an artist, yet you might never have an income. That's what happened to a lot of great writers from Rimbaud to Poe and across the centuries. A most recent example is P.K. Dick, who had to buy horsemeat from the dog shop, because he couldn't afford much else.
Among his more renown work are "Do Androids dream of Electric Sheep" (Blade Runner), "Minority Report", "Paycheck", "We can remember it for you wholesale" (Total Recall) and many more. So there is a New Classic, one of the greatest writers in American history, who died poor, like the inventor of the modern American short story: E.A. Poe.

So I ask - in a society, which measures the success of everybody by the money they got in the bank, where do we put arts and artists and is it a wonder we see so few genuinely interesting artists lately? Does success justify betraying your ideals and becoming a useful, but replacable, specialized member of society?

I have been working in advertising for years and I only quit, because I found it pointless to work only for money. I want to see my better ideas realised in film and not try to put someone else's stupid idea into story that makes people buy. Life is about originality and the more original you get the more people will get their own story out of what you write. It's like I'm writing in layers, some not even entirely comprehensible to myself.

So, here is another question: How can you survive as an artist in a world that lives on demand? How do you produce something that creates a demand for it by itself and what are those values represented in such a piece of art?

I feel success is something, which is made by the media these days. By TV shows and entertainers. It can be tailored, because it isn't ever made to last. If you genuinely feel and care about art this gives you an awkward feeling. You feel like your dumbed down to follow a predefined set of rules. This may help you become successful, but it won't last. And that is what "America's Next Topmodel" is about. It's not what being an artist is about...

Success exists only in your mind.

As an artist, you should strive to create art.
If you want to live well, you're going to have to create accessible, widely appreciated art.
At this point you cease being a mere artist, and become part psychologist / sociologist.

Honestly, it depends what you're looking for. Some people have no problem being "starving artists".

Being an artist is not about creating art. It is about surviving with nothing. It is about balancing on the tip of the sword. Many artists create art, because there's not much else they can do. Maybe that's why the products artists create are called art.

SinKing, i can relate to you in a lot of ways.. but you said it yourself that there were great, poor artists across the centuries. they were probably asking the same questions!

Maybe its the struggles they go through that help create that greatness

I think Jimi said it best and I can relate to that. The new question is: am I an artist, because there is nothing else I can do? That's a bit oversimplified, but basically it's one of the things I think, too. We are living on nothing, creating out of nothing. Needing very little.
I have been learning much not about how to create something that will appeal to everybody, but something that will please me. The reader usually doesn't realise the twists and turns of a plot. He only sees the main events and applauds the hero.
I'm learning to put my own structure into writing instead of trying to copy what's successful. So it's pretty much the only thing I can do.
The tediuous thing about all art is that you constantly have to motivate yourself, because you only make real progress by experiencing failure, too. It's no fun, but I guess it's what you're left with when you're not interested in hierarchies and being the rich boss. This is the spiritual reward then, but it's never granted just for hanging in. I wonder, if I'll eve be successful with what I'm doing, I can just carry on with it and hope I can make some changes to my destiny myself.

Edited by: SinKing

No.

N0dachi wrote: No.

Fantastic bump...

What? He asked if success justifys everything and i stated No. Its my, ill admit its rather short, opinion.

N0dachi wrote: What? He asked if success justifys everything and i stated No. Its my, ill admit its rather short, opinion.

A month bump is not worthy of you saying no

So few genuinely interesting artists lately?
Seriously... no. Just NO.

But your posts are confusing to me.
I know it might not be your writing style, but, what exactly do you want?
Go for the 5 mins of fame, or don't. It's there if you want it, and on the other hand, we live in very friendly economical times, where you don't spend all of your time either working or dying, allowing you to do things for yourself as well.
Write for yourself, or write for others. But this 50/50 thing doesn't seem to be healthy for you.

Henley wrote:

N0dachi wrote: What? He asked if success justifys everything and i stated No. Its my, ill admit its rather short, opinion.

A month bump is not worthy of you saying no

Not like i always look on the date of the last post :/

N0dachi wrote:

Henley wrote:

N0dachi wrote: What? He asked if success justifys everything and i stated No. Its my, ill admit its rather short, opinion.

A month bump is not worthy of you saying no

Not like i always look on the date of the last post :/

You better start now!

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~Toyoka's Gaming Channel~