Post news Report RSS 1.1 Preview: Upkeep

Please note that this is a preview for a feature being included in 1.1, not the 1.0f version available above. Specifics may change between now and release based on testing and feedback.

Posted by on

Please note that this is a preview for a feature being included in 1.1, not the 1.0f version available above. Specifics may change between now and release based on testing and feedback.


One of the biggest issues which brings down Sins of a Solar Empire is the way the late-game devolves into a tedious slog, where the determining factor of a match is not who has a better fleet, economy or strategy, but instead who gets bored last. Rather than large fleets and empires resulting in a climactic battle or series of key engagements, the end-game would drag on as players could easily accumulate thousands of unusable resources and immediately replace any losses. Their reserves would also be so large as to render most territory losses meaningless. Part of this can be ascribed to income rates, but its also partially the fault of how upkeep is handled; regardless of how many ships you have, once you've upgraded your capacity you're stuck at a flat income cost. You can't make that cost too big either, or players wouldn't be able to afford it and any loss would be impossible to adjust for.

No individual change can fix all of this, however we have a new way to handle upkeep which should require a bit more thought for fleet composition, increase the value on individual ships, and significantly change the way late-game engagements are thought about.

Instead of fleet upkeep being based on a flat rate (which remains), there is now an additional component where each individual ship has its own upkeep cost in credits. This is broken into tiers based on different characteristics of the ships, and provides another mechanic with which we can differentiate ships and even factions. This mechanic means that having a fully-capped fleet requires not just saving and spending properly, but having an income which can sustain it long-term. The more ships you have, the less money you have rolling in, and the less effectively you can replace losses you've sustained.

This also provides a sneaky way for us to potentially improve performance. Where before 10 players on a 100 player map could realistically survive and end up with 10 fully-capped fleets, making gameplay slow to a crawl. With these changes, that should be a lot more difficult to accomplish economically, since there are only so many ships that can be supported at once. As players get eliminated, more space gets freed up and remaining players can afford to expand more.


Figure out you're expanding too much, or losing too much territory to sustain your ships, or even just not at war and want to focus output more on infrastructure instead of military? No problem. You can also mothball your ships from any of your frigate or capital shipyards. Mothballing completely deactivates the selected ship, making it a sitting target, however it also removed the upkeep costs associated with keeping it active. This will hopefully provide players on both sides with interesting strategies to take advantage of. There will also be a helpful indicator above the ships, indicating that they are mothballed.

Moreover, this should also make it more viable to engage in hit and run tactics. We want to make infrastructure more valuable to begin with, whether by making it more expensive or take longer to build, but aside from that, previously if you had a smaller fleet you really had no choice but to engage or try to expand your own to take it on at some point. Our first attempt to solve this was buffing smaller fleets with well-trained fleet commanders, but that was not the answer. Now, if you're able to outmaneuver a player with a bigger fleet and chip away at their territory and economy, you can eventually force them to start mothballing or even scuttling their fleet if they want to continue producing anything or taking territory.

Follow Ascendancy
Forums - Facebook - Steam Group - Youtube - Mod DB - Twitter


Post comment Comments
JC123
JC123 - - 215 comments

The idea of mothballing a fleet and trying to take out said fleet before the player can react is a cool new strategy I would love to try. Finally something new for Sins!

Reply Good karma Bad karma+11 votes
Gerfand
Gerfand - - 208 comments

Man I really want to try this w/ my friend

Reply Good karma Bad karma+3 votes
Trooper_
Trooper_ - - 530 comments

Question (as I did not see it mentioned) As to will the A.i get taught to use this system?.

I mainly ask because I don't really play against other people in sins, I play with them or solo vs A.i.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+3 votes
.Corey. Author
.Corey. - - 3,735 comments

You cannot change the way the AI acts at all in Sins, it's entirely hardcoded. However, while they won't be aware of this system and can;t take advantage of it in as many ways as an actual player can (ie striking intentionally in such a way as to take out mothballed fleets, or even really being able to mothball themselves), it can help to curb some of their more annoying/spammy tendencies and will link them to a similar need for a decent economy as the player, which is ultimately the point.

Reply Good karma+1 vote
Exakter
Exakter - - 88 comments

eh, I like the ideas behind this Corey, but frankly not something I think I'd ever use. The MP aspect of this game... not great, and so I see this as making the AI even easier to beat.

So you are sacrificing your SP game for your MP game, on a game where your MP community is relatively small. Sucks, but its also why the modding community for this game inevitably burns out, hardcoded limits.

While I respect your innovation, this is a change that'll push me away personally.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
.Corey. Author
.Corey. - - 3,735 comments

Give it a shot before you make up your mind on them- its something that should improve multiplayer more than single, for sure, but that does not necessarily mean it will hurt singleplayer. If it all works how we expect and hope it will, it will also improve singleplayer (though not to the same extent, of course). If it ends up not working out that way, it's always something we can reverse, and if it's just an issue with AIs ability to manage resources, there's ways around that as well. We're very aware that the vast majority of the player base, even including ourselves, plays the game most of the time in singleplayer, so while there are certain changes we'd like to make which realistically will only have a huge impact on multiplayer interactions, we have no intention of letting singleplayer suffer for it.

And again, if you play it and still think it's hurting that, let us know. If you follow either TR mod, we're always open to reversing even major changes if we feel they hurt more than they help (ie the migration mechanic from pre-0.95 Ascendancy), but as is the nature with these kinds of games, we won't know until we try.

Reply Good karma+1 vote
Plejadenwolf
Plejadenwolf - - 520 comments

Here a description of my behavior during reading the article:
Fleet upkeep, hm... Doesn't make this fleet management a whole lot more complicated and maybe less fun?
(Reading further)
Ah ha, yeah, alright, okay [...]
Then: Mothballing! Damn baby, now that's a feature which makes the thing really interesting in strategic terms. (Amazement, jubilation)
I hope there is going to be a nice animation where the crew is leaving the ship or something similar. Amazing concept, can't wait to see more!

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
.Corey. Author
.Corey. - - 3,735 comments

I think the key here is that other than specifically deciding whether to mothball or not mothball, it can add another layer of complexity or choice without really adding any additional tedious actions needed by the player- you have to think more about when to do what, but actually doing that stuff doesn't actually require any more steps. In some ways it can also be more forgiving (ie under base Sins, if you upgrade to max fleet capacity, you can't go back and are stuck paying that much forever, making recovery pointlessly difficult. If you don't actually have the fleet, why pay so much to support it?)

Reply Good karma+1 vote
Redraline_Salkos
Redraline_Salkos - - 18 comments

I like the idea here. It adds a whole new layer of depth to the strategy involved in this game. I hope it is able to be implemented fully, and perhaps also made optional.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
DarthRevan39
DarthRevan39 - - 179 comments

Will there be a way to un-Mothball the ships after you mothball them? I mean in a pinch it could be a reserve fleet that could just save your skin.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
.Corey. Author
.Corey. - - 3,735 comments

Yes

Reply Good karma+2 votes
Aetherial87
Aetherial87 - - 449 comments

You had me at mothballs.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Slornie
Slornie - - 302 comments

But can I send some mole miners in to acquire mothballed ships? :P

Reply Good karma Bad karma+2 votes
Redraline_Salkos
Redraline_Salkos - - 18 comments

That would be interesting. Sending teams in to take them over while they are not crewed.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Revanchist_1
Revanchist_1 - - 143 comments

Mole miners should totally be a thing.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
james340
james340 - - 224 comments

I really like the sound of this!

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
HEYITSTOR
HEYITSTOR - - 17 comments

i may have missed it but is there an ETA on 1.1? love the work you guys have done and love playing this mod. thanks again cory and slev and team =]

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Post a comment

Your comment will be anonymous unless you join the community. Or sign in with your social account: