Dynamic Location/ Map-Specific Forces Thread - Tiberium Secrets mod for C&C3: Tiberium Wars

As brought up in another thread, the idea of this concept is to introduce specific units to skirmish maps that regard different factions with either a "friendly", "neutral", or "hostile" response when said factions move within a certain distance. A simpler take on that could be either a "favorable" or "unfavorable" response. This can be carried out in a number of ways with many different scenarios, which might hopefully add depth and flavor to Tiberium Secrets.

One method this can occur is with the introduction of units that share a theme with the environment they are in. Some examples could include Private Military Consultants and future police forces in Blue Zones, Civilians militias in Yellow Zones and Tiberium creatures in Red Zones. Restating two words used by GeneralJist, such groups would posses a "loyalty mechanic". Depending on the faction being played and if these dynamic forces are approached, the player will experience different results. GDI and D51 may likely find a friendly response in Blue Zones, a neutral response in Yellow Zones, and a hostile response in Red Zones. Scrin and Colony forces would likely get the opposite, although specifics could be altered to fit lore and any story telling purposes.

At the start of a match, all such dynamic forces on the map would hold a neutral stance towards any player. Different localized "scenarios" could be applied, such as PMC units guarding a communications building or downed transport craft, police guarding a bank, civilian militia protecting an "abandoned" hospital, or Tiberium creatures protecting a nest. When moving units of a faction that are on favorable/ neutral terms with the dynamic forces in such a scenario, such dynamic forces might turn control of units over to the player or simply do nothing. When moving units of a faction that are on unfavorable terms, those same dynamic forces might engage and attack player units.

Buildings associated with different scenarios could turn over control/ be tech structures that provide varying bonuses such as generating income [like a bank], firing upon enemies of the controlling player that move nearby [such as an already occupied civilian apartment building or automated defense structure], spotting enemy stealth units [former GDI radar masts], healing/ repairing surrounding units [hospitals and repair shops], granting support powers [communication structures], etc. as long as friendly forces remain nearby or control should the building have been captured.

Example:
A yellow zone themed map could have armed civilians in an already occupied apartment building that treat NOD and ASIM forces as friendly, GDI and D51 as neutral, and Scrin and Colony as hostile. Or human factions as friendly [GDI, NOD, D51] and non-humans as hostile [ASIM, Scrin, and the Colony] intended story/ background to be implied.

Forces:
While already mentioned above here are some minor faction ideas of the map specific forces and my take on where each would often be located.
- PMC: Could largely be generic "guns for hire" that see use in Blue and Yellows Zones.
- Police/ SWAT: Protectors of the general populace, seen in/ close to Blue Zones.
- Civilian Militia: Organized to defend themselves and families, though generally less/ ill equipped compared to police. Seen in Yellow Zones.
- Forgotten: Humans "left" in Red Zones.
- Various Creatures: Transformed through infection once introduced to Tiberium, spotted in Red Zones.

As for balance, map placement of scenarios and dynamic force size are two contributing factors.

All stated and presented professionally. Nice.

I know this is starting small (as of my reply), but I must say that Civilian Militia would have dynamic weapons, no? Some may appear solo with pistols, at best effectiveness against Engineers, but then some would appear in squads with salvaged rocket launchers capable of moderately damaging, if nothing else, standard military-issue armor. I've always though militia to be very helpful because of their capabilty to adapt to many situations...

In the Red Zones, though, one wouldn't see much people- just Forgotten Creatures (I honestly never thought even Forgotten Mutants, once human, could stand a Red Zone.) and Tiberium Life-Forms. So that means it's over for GDI and D51. Unless... I'm thinking of a crash-scenario...

I've been wondering, how would dynamic forces react if they met? Would a Scrin Visceroid attack a native Colonist? Even before interference by players? I assume the dynamic entites will roam about, but not too far and not if they are a structure haha. Gah. Recently we have been brainstorming a lot. So much to cover. So much potential...

EDIT: Also, could a bunch of civilians friendly with GDI become unfriendly because the player destroyed some civilian structures? Or Forgotten and Tiberium Life-Forms agitated with Scrin because a Tripod accidentally smashed through a nesting ground?

Edited by: WunderKind

Well put, both of you, and about the change of loyalty, yes, it would be easy to set a trigger of X destroyed things.

This gives me the idea of earning the loyalty, like you do somehting for the civs, like reconstruct their city and or specific buildings like a hospital,l, and you win their support, they give whatever.

Thing that really needs to be emphasized in my mind, is that all these forces are uncontrolable.

This thread reminded me about GDI mission 1 in firestorm, where you go through a small city, and mutants pop up and fight for you, but you can't control them.

This thread also reminds me about creep ideas i had a while ago:

1. trains which transport troops for free to designated points.

2. News chompers- which extended sight range

3. EMP armed police cruisers w/ tire spikes

4. Ambulance- pick up any injured inf, and take to hospital for a fee

5. Firetrucks - put out fires on structures

Just fun stuff like that, and they would respond to what happened to the civilians Or you pay them, and they help you. (still would primarily for only human factions it seems)

Edited by: GeneralJist

Good to know.

RECONSTRUCT CIVILIAN STRUCTURES!?! IT'S GENIUS!
Ah, ok.

Speaking of Fire-Storm, (I think I've asked this and actually had it answered before, but I've forgotten so forgive me.) are there going to be Fire-Storm Barriers? I absolutely love them. Greatest defense ever. I loved effing with the AI by allowing them to fire missiles at me, only to activate the Barrier just before impact and watch the missile harmlessly destruct. But that's an idea.

If I'm not mistaken, such trains were in Generals: Zero Hour. Functioned exactly like you said. If you will add them, please do this:
So I went through some trouble to get Neutron Shells and a Nuke Cannon set up waiting for the Train to come around. When I finally hit it, I got its Engine and some Train Cars. So I garrisoned and claimed it with infantry. And it continued going! Good thing was, I could see the shroud as it moved on its tracks, but I couldn't control it. It kept on going as if nothing happened. So if you're going to add them, allow the player to control them upon capture. Or mind-control or whatever. I actually think you can mind-control Visceroids in TW. It is very funny to storm the enemy with them. [If you can't mind control them in vanilla TW, I think I'm referring to a mod...]

You meant News Choppers, right? Regardless, they would both be outstanding additions. I'm just sort of worried about the functionality of the News Chomper. It's like the opposite of the obedient 'news paper retriever dog.' It will go and eat your newspaper whole. Civilians worst enemy

Police Cruisers boasting military-issue armor and drivers. Yes. But not the ones in G: ZH. I could easily hop in one and drive it into the enemy base and BOOM! Love Juhziz.

Ambulance with that function is great as well. I'm interested in the mechanic there mentioned itself. But how to take control of them? Capture a hospital? And their armor? Oh yeah, also, Hospitals. So I guess no more map-wide infantry healing. But your mechanic is much better, more involved (and needs significantly more micro), and more realistic.

Firetrucks- counterpart of Flame Tank and Molotovs and Flamethrowers and Incendiary Bombs and Shells. So that means there will be Fire Storms right? Like in G: ZH and CnC4: TT? Even if they're not, I'd like to see a water vs. fire match with a Firetruck and Flame Tank firing directly at each other. BUT seriously, I'd like to see the Flame Tank win. I wouldn't say the Firetruck would do any damage, but only put out Fire Storms. Also, if continuously force-firing on a building, maybe it cannot be clear-garrisonned by enemies? Like Flame Tanks cannot clear it but still damage? Gah. Too much to discuss with this ability to put out fires.

Thank you [both].

WunderKind wrote: I know this is starting small (as of my reply), but I must say that Civilian Militia would have dynamic weapons, no? Some may appear solo with pistols, at best effectiveness against Engineers, but then some would appear in squads with salvaged rocket launchers capable of moderately damaging, if nothing else, standard military-issue armor. I've always though militia to be very helpful because of their capabilty to adapt to many situations...

Sure the weapons used could be dynamic, with better equipped weapons having a smaller chance of occurrence compared to lesser weapons such as pistols.

Another idea [speaking of Arm the Mob] could be the use of a toggle on structures you "capture" that produce/ release units. It could involve "kits" that contain different weapons and equipment. The contents could vary depending on the faction being played, but the base premise is that the player dictates the types of supplemental units fielded.

For example a GDI player could equip civilians that leave an apartment building with a pistol and medical pack, a shotgun and sensor balloon with camera [<- might just have found a new theme for some thoughts], or a hunting rifle and grenades. Nod players would instead arm civilians with explosive vests, Molotovs, or a megaphone to spread the word of Nod.

Those ideas are just to show some options, the overall jist (general jist?) of the concept is that a new squad could be produced from such a building. Three buttons are availiable and one is always active, but the player can switch between each at any time, so long as the building remains under that player's influance. At set intervals the building releases the squad with whatever kit is active, although better kits require longer spans of time between releases, say 15, 30, or 60 seconds for example.

WunderKind wrote: In the Red Zones, though, one wouldn't see much people- just Forgotten Creatures (I honestly never thought even Forgotten Mutants, once human, could stand a Red Zone.) and Tiberium Life-Forms. So that means it's over for GDI and D51. Unless... I'm thinking of a crash-scenario...

Might forgotten mutants just be mutants then, no longer possessing the higher level functions that made them human? Seems like a form of zombie.

How would it be over for the GDI and D51? I do like the thought of a crash scenario...

WunderKind wrote: I've been wondering, how would dynamic forces react if they met? Would a Scrin Visceroid attack a native Colonist? Even before interference by players? I assume the dynamic entites will roam about, but not too far and not if they are a structure haha. Gah. Recently we have been brainstorming a lot. So much to cover. So much potential...

That all depends on the story intended to be told of course, I have been wondering about such an issue as well. Unit spawning structures could possess a simple rally point such as "attack move and defend here" so you [the player] could find out.

One thing I'm interested in having are maps that have multiple "minor factions" I'll call them. Such as a Blue and Yellow Zone border map, or Yellow and Red Zone border map. The maps would have their intended scenario, such as GDI vs. Nod or Nod vs. Scrin, but players would be at liberty to create their own takes, simply by choosing to play as a different faction the experience would change because the native dynamic hazards would treat the player differently depending on chosen faction.

WunderKind wrote: EDIT: Also, could a bunch of civilians friendly with GDI become unfriendly because the player destroyed some civilian structures? Or Forgotten and Tiberium Life-Forms agitated with Scrin because a Tripod accidentally smashed through a nesting ground?

That is an interesting question. I would love to see something of the sort, provided the game engine can handle such. It may just be a somewhat deeper/ alternative take on what MEC2 has done.

---

GeneralJist wrote: This gives me the idea of earning the loyalty, like you do somehting for the civs, like reconstruct their city and or specific buildings like a hospital,l, and you win their support, they give whatever.

Thing that really needs to be emphasized in my mind, is that all these forces are uncontrolable.

This thread reminded me about GDI mission 1 in firestorm, where you go through a small city, and mutants pop up and fight for you, but you can't control them.

I like the idea of earning loyalty as well.

However I do think this concept and others such as local scenarios of other sorts could vary in terms of how much control is given to the player(s). Not every form has to be uncontrollable.

GeneralJist wrote: This thread also reminds me about creep ideas i had a while ago:

1. trains which transport troops for free to designated points.

2. News chompers- which extended sight range

3. EMP armed police cruisers w/ tire spikes

4. Ambulance- pick up any injured inf, and take to hospital for a fee

5. Firetrucks - put out fires on structures

Just fun stuff like that, and they would respond to what happened to the civilians Or you pay them, and they help you. (still would primarily for only human factions it seems)

The News Chopper could pay royalties to the "controlling" player [of the home building] for being kept alive. It could just fly to predetermined locations on the map, such as around a large radius around a news station [which would be captured/ influenced first before the helo benefits the player].

Something like EMP armed police cruisers sound as though they would be better fully controllable, with the ability to deploy tire spikes [or something that might have more of an impact on walkers, tanks, and hover vehicles haha. Although I have no problem giving Nod wheeled forces a drive for their money.

I'm liking all such ideas though.

[And no, I wouldn't support map-wide infantry healing or vehicles repairs, while a fire mechanic sounds fun as well.]

---

Another take on such ideas is to incorporate them all together in major cities. Players could hold cities or parts of cities (so maps would be large) and every faction would obtain a unique appearance specific to the controlling faction [GDI cities so order with police patrols, D51 might show marshal law with PMC, Nod would show militias in trucks, the Colony would convert the city, having mindless husks or the like.

As one play starts to attack another's city, the state of damage would start to show and thus bring out firetrucks to take care of fires that start popping up and occupied roadblocks and barricades from human controlled cities to help the player defend.

I guess the city as a whole might have its own health bar so to speak...

No problem.

And that's a great idea. I was thinking of toggle-able weapons, but starting load-outs work as well fine. Even better with your mechanic. Although, depending on the environment, I'd say the time intervals could be somewhat dynamic.

Yeah. For Forgotten Mutants we can call them simply Mutants. They obviously have some characteristics of humans, but I don't think even they could survive in a Red Zone for long. They have reportedly shown signs of at least higher-than-basic/moderate intelligence. Also, I meant that in Red Zones I don't think GDI and D51 will have civilian 'connections.' And as for the crash scenario, I was thinking of a skirmish map, but I think a campaign map would be better suited with those. I'm imagining a crashed Transport or Convoy, overrun by Colonists or Forgotten Creatures, with a AI base controlling the remaining survivor forces. Among them are some Mission-Specific Key/Objective Units. Once you enter the fray, you fight your way to the crash, obtain control of some forces, have a trigger show some larger Forgotten/Colonial attack forces incoming (which destroy some of your units and building in a cutscene), then are fended off by airstrikes, then you resume control and hold ground defending the Key Units, then have a reinforcement team arrive, gain control over it, push your way back into the crash zone with this team (easier now that you've cleared the path once), all the while leaving and moving forces along a path to an extraction Transport (against endless yet steady waves (or dynamic depending on difficulty)), and secure the crash zone, then move you Key Units along your secured path through hostile territory to extraction. HOWEVER, the previously-warded off units (by airstrike) would come back and begin assaulting some time during this whole last phase, and then they will become Objectives to Kill, so the mission cannot be completed without killing them off (it would be possible to escape before they appear; meaning you won't have to bother with them). Also, keep in mind this is all within a Red Zone, and the 'cliffs' are giant Tiberium Rifts (no cliff-jumping) sticking out of ravines. This also means that you cannot deploy infantry without Zone Armor or equivalent. I.E. No snipers, riflemen, rocket squads, etc similarly armored. BUT, you will get some special troops (campaign-only type) from the crashed Transport at your disposal- I'm thinking like Zone Commando or such...

Ah, that's a good idea. But honestly, about rally points, I sort of expect them. I know this is a unique mod where some things (previous features) cannot be expected, but I always thought rally points would exist for any and all production facilities. And yeah, if a map is meant for a Nod vs. Scrin map, it could still be played with both different other factions, or a mirror match, but with intersting 'side-effects' haha.

Indeed it would. Remember the effing Bruemmbars (I think)? I had 4 of them at once on match Just toyed around with the enemy until he was left with a Barracks and a Refinery and kept churning out Rifles' and Rockets'.

"Militias in trucks"... remember that Westwood concept art of the Technical? You brought it back in my head hahaha. Love it. Loved Technicals as well. When asked to pick up an upgrade junk: "Looks like a good mod." *Unaware that he is referring to this mod at the same time.* Hahaha.

I'm liking all the ideas as well. Also, I'm not up for map-wide healing- I think your mentioned mechanic, General Jist, would be the best. And for Repair Shops you'd drive over to them. Or get a tow truck

"I guess the city as a whole might have its own health bar so to speak... " And when it hits zero all the participating players stop getting superior benefits (civilian Geneva Convention -type things)? But a very interesting idea...

And firetrucks that are just eye-candy like so (would rush over from a station to put out fires but not directly affecting battle) would be a great addition, even if they aren't actually useable.

not sure if it's been stated, but I could see the Forgotten having a sort of uneasy friendship with the colony, a neutral standing, the colony is based around a tiberium mutated virus and I see it that the same virus could have been what mutated the people who make up the forgotten, they figure that out, but considering the hostile actions the colony takes, they don't forge an alliance, but stay neutral towards them, if you attack them however as the colony, they will fight back

@ WunderKind
Well we definitely have something here haha.

By using rally points I intended to imply that that might be the only way in which you [the player] might control these auxiliary forces. The placement of a rally point would be an attack move and guard order in one for the most part.

So how many tow trucks do you think it would take to move a Mammoth?

And yes, once a cities health bar reaches zero it would be rip for the taking by either/ any faction, granting no bonuses etc. but instead becoming a neutral tech structure so to speak.

@ Saline
Hmm, it's interesting to think that since the Forgotten get less and less help from anyone else, they turn instead to the aliens that are just like them. Time will tell once we get to the subject, but we won't forget your idea. (I for one support it, seems to make sense at least.)

Just thoughts, of course. But I was hoping they would be developed more.

Ah, yes. That would work. Sort of like most mod's 'war-factory mine-units,' no? You build one or a group and then they automatically go and settle down at your rally point. No manual control- ever.

I would say it would take 8- 2 for each pair of treads. They would be military-grade tow trucks, of course, with military issue tow-lines. So technically the Mammoth would be lifted completely off the ground, yet the entire caravan would move very slowly. Oh , and the 'hind tow trucks' would have to drive backwards.

Yes. Pretty much. (Will there be a 'civilian color,' unavailable for players to choose, yet when any city falls, certain structures will take on that certain 'civilian color'? This would actually be easy to do, no? But regardless, the usual gray doesn't please me. Keeping the color standard as with the bustling city would work, but maybe a certain distinguishing coloration for certain significant structures.)