Further Frigate Fun(ctionality) Thread - R.E.A.R.M. - The Unofficial Classic HW 2 Expansion mod for Homeworld 2

Ok, I realize that this may be a bit late and you are trying to 'wrap up' frigates as a class so you can move on to other classes (like the intriguing Battleships) but this idea won't let go. If you like it (and it's do-able) maybe you could come back to it?

Imagine this situation:

You are playing as the Vaygr. Things have gone badly.

You have ONE Artillery Frigate left, you are running and....hiding in dust clouds.
No Resource Collectors left, but things were going well for a while so you have a few thousand RU.
Because an Artillery Frigate counts as a Build-Capable ship, the game isn't over.

(This has happened to me, I had one Artillery Frigate and one Adv. Heavy Missile Frigate left once.
I had fun sniping a clueless Hgn Defense Field Frigate to death with Long Range Missiles, before the BC it was guarding noticed and promptly ended me.)

The idea was three ideas in one, all dependent on each other
(and more dependent on if the scale of some things I haven't checked yet fit).

1) Add Resource Collectors to the build list for Artillery Frigates.
(This is what I'm not sure of scale-wise, can a Resource Collector fit coming out of the Probe Production Facility 'head first'?).

So now you can start harvesting again.
But where are you going to drop those RU's off?
So now comes the 2nd and 3rd part of the crazy idea.

2) Allow the Artillery Frigate to build a Module Base, either top or bottom, upon this you can then build a single Module.
If you had a Kinetic Turret built on the bottom, retire it and build a Module Base.
-This is some appropriate looking, fairly flat, base structure you would model to build the Modules on.

Once this is built the Platforms and Modules build tabs become available.
Added in there is a new Module Subsystem; 'Resource Drop-off'.
3a.)This obviously allows you to build an RU drop-off point on your Frigate.
So now your Collector can drop RU off, ka-ching!

If you had enough RU left, you could bypass this step and go straight to, yup you guessed it;

3b.) Build a Hyperspace Module and Hyper in a Carrier/Supercarrier/Shipyard.

So this would let you come back to a full Fleet (less MS) from a single Artillery Frigate and some RU.

Or, go 'Frigate Only' and just have a bunch of Artillery Frigates, each with a single Module and Probe Production Facility.
One with the Research Module, one with a Hyperspace Module, a few with Fire Control Towers, one with a Hyperspace Inhibitor, two or three with RU Drop-off Modules etc.
Allowing this 'Module Base' to be built on top or bottom leads to some interesting combinations in my head.

This may not 'fit' at all with what you want for your mod and that's ok, I realize that some suggestions I've made before have been well off the mark for what you want to do, just say nah if you no likey.
The idea kept me awake last night though so it had to come out.

And it won't work if the scaling is off, I need to check this tonight but had to post this idea out of my head.
(p.s. sorry if this should've gone in 'Suggestions')

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*EDIT* Sat 06-March-2010

Ok, I've checked the scaling, Resource Collectors would fit coming out of the ArtyFrig either sideways or head first no problem;

Modules though, are HUGE! I never really noticed before but a single Module easily out masses a whole Frigate.

~So.
This whole crazy idea would only work if you were willing to scale-down the Module and introduce Frigate-Class sized Mini-Modules to HW2;

If the physical size of the Module is diminished, the strength of the Module should also be correspondingly diminished, so all values would be modified weaker.

I realize the whole concept could be a rather massive compromise to HW2 canon and not at all a direction you want to go and that's all good.

(It wasn't too hard to convince myself that these hugely advanced space-faring people couldn't start miniaturizing their technology, as our (human) race seems to love doing, to the point were a 'mature' technology like Modules could be effectively miniaturized to fit on a Frigate Chassis.
-or I'm just desperately trying to justify a pet idea.)

END EDIT*
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Edited by: tadamir

You're right that I want to wrap them up. And the closer I am to finish them, the more I want it.

Yeah I know this kind of situation. In fact I remember myself spending more than hour attacking the enemy AI (also without production ship or maybe just carrier) who had one destroyer, one BC and bunch of useless working resource collectors and refineries plus some frigates. i was hiding my only three Artillery Frigates in a big dust cloud protecting myself with a large minefields made by the minelayer drone, building minetraps and sending them to death and building countless number of squadrons of scouts to attack something they're not meant to attack. And from some reason, I won the game eventually, but yeah, I won't be in the mood to repeat it again when something similar will happen.

1) I was about to reply that I'll check the size, but then I saw the picture and read your edited part and I can see they fit. In this case I would have to clone the collector models (because the original ones aren't depend on any subsystem), so there would be no problem to make then more expensive (which I definitelly want), or make a new model for them -why not, i have new model for the minelayer just for the frigates, I from some reason enjoy making ship which will be used only in some specific situations. It will make them unique in some point of view and from some reason, it seems logical and amusing to me. Someone else would see it to be pointless and useless.
I've read the point number one so far, but I know where you're getting at, you want full resourcing with frigates.

2) Yes. Well, I have no problem with the concept. Well, I can't say even this, I have some problems with the concept, but now the techincal part of it, where the problems definitelly are:
I don't know if this is possible. Or better: it maybe is possible, but I can't script. The thing is, that the collector know where to go with resources because of the dockpaths of the ship (or maybe because of the lines in the AI classdef file, but it doesn't matter, it's practically the same problem in both cases). Now if you want to build something, you can't build it without specific subsystem, because the build file tells the game that. But if you want to dock something, you can do it regardless of any subsystem. So I would have to find some other way how to tell the collectors "no, you can't dock there, there's no resource drop-off module." Maybe it's easier than I think, but right now I have no idea how to do it. Maybe it's just about adding dockpaths to the subsystem itself, but no original ship have it (it's always in the ship) and I haven't try anything like it. And I think someone else was abput to try it.
Just give me some time to research.
The problems with the concept I've mentioned: Isn't it really way too much? I can imagine it with Hiigarans -the frigate race. But Vaygr, yeah, they're mobile, it is kind of their thing, but wouldn't we cross the line of the reasonable gameplay and common sense with this? Anyway, it would have to be damn expensive, to at least complicate the players life somehow.
The Base thing: You know you can actually make the building of one subsystem to be depending on other subsystem, no problem. I just don't know if is possible to also make the life of this subsystem to be depending on the life of the other subsystem. In other words: You can easily build module after building the module Base. BUT, I'm not sure if the module would really dissapear after destroyng the module base, it would probably stay levitating in the empty space. It could probably be solved by making the module base damageable, it couldn't be destroyed so there would be no issues like this.
But I still find the module base idea unecessary complicated for the ship of this size.

3) The sections is called "Ships" and people tend to place their ship suggestions here and I'm fine with it. It's better to have all the ship topics together, as I said, it's called ships so it's technically correct.
Hyperspace. Well... You know I don't want to leave enemy a single frigate just to find out later, that my one hour battle was uselles, because the bastard fully recovered. It needs to stop somewhere. I don't agree with it, but if there's a way how to unlock something after a password, cheat or the specific players name, I can make it for you. I won't implement it to the official mod release though. (or I can send you the modified ship which can do that and you include it.)

4) Modules are huge. Yes they are. But... You're saing that like you've never notticed the modules on your very favourite frigate. Or the Command frigate: It has even the HS inhibitor, but very weak (I just realised i should probably make it even weaker). or wait, do you see a difference in the "module" and "sybsystem" term? Is it something different? I guess I've missed that and I've never saw it as two separate categories.

Conclusion:
-Building collectors? Why not. Expensive ones or even depending on a whole new subsystem. Possible in this mod.
-Resource drop-off. Technical dificulties, uknown solution.
-Hyperspace module in order to restore back to normal: This is something which have to be fun for the player who have the option, but it can make you very (I mean very very) angry if you're ANYONE else in this situation. Which means no, it's not just the Vaygr/Hiigaran balancing, it's never ending game which ends in the moment you give up after few hours when you're really deathly tired or deathly bored.

Suggestion!
Hyperspacing. Not hypespacing the frigate itself, not hypespacing shipyard. But to make a dummy module which doesn't do anything, but allows you to hyperspace in something like all kinds of refineries -which is still very unfair, It would have to take minutes and would have to be expensive to slow down the speed you can set the countless number of resourcing operations anywhere you want.
Or hypespace in something like small station which can build fighters, corvettes (just don't say you want frigates too. Ok, but then there would have to be a single production slot so you can build only this). The station would have to be very expensive again and it just CAN'T build shipyards, carriers or anything which smells like a new hope.
So what does it mean? You have a few frigates and almost no money. You sacrifice some subsystems to get more money to build collector and refinery. You wait a few minutes and then you build a small station (or something) which will allow you to build fighters or maybe a few more things. And because I have already all ships sorted into categories, it could be (and I would really like that) only for example "laser corvettes" or "laser fighters" or "kinetic corvettes" etc.
There can be a whole fleet of expensive and uselless things to build from the frigate, but it can't just never build a shipyard.
I'm afraid I can't give you than that. (Wait, I can. As I said, but I can give it only to you, not to the official release).

Is this answer good enough? Or you've expected more.

I may have written a bunch of total nonsense, but it's too late in night to read it after myself. I'm sorry, you will have to take it with all the grammar errors you'll find. I... have... no... energy... for anything better than that.

Edited by: Pouk

Hmmm... interesting points, both of you. I have to side with Pouk in terms of letting frigates -ever- be able to build shipyards. I'd say it would be okay for a frigate to hyperspace in a carrier, but carriers can HS in shipyards, so I'd say no there too. Unless... unless you could hyperspace in a special type of carrier with all sorts of unique attributes, one of which it being incapable of building shipyards. But you have to be careful there, to make sure that the unique carrier is not as desirable as a full blown carrier, otherwise in normal gameplay, players will build the unique one instead of the normal carrier.

But at the same time, special carrier, and small station can be pretty much identical, it's just that one sounds like it can be fairly mobile, and the other one... not so much. Personally? I kind of like the idea as follows:

Any (or most any, mothership and shipyard at least) production ship can build the special carrier and the special station. The Artillery Frigate may build special resource collectors (faster than normal collectors, but have less capactity, and in total, are less productive)(note that the Arty Frigate cannot serve as a docking point for the collectors, unless you can figure out the technical difficulties, either way shouldn't make too much of a difference). Additionally, the Artillery Frigate (which at this time, may have a name change to modular frigate, or something) can build (HS in) the special station. The special station would be about the size of the super carrier, but has a very low speed (5-40, I guess). The station has point defense guns (about the same number as a refinery (did you know that some HW2 players build refineries instead of anti-fighter frigates because refineries can actually be more effective?)), and some sort of (minor) anti-frigate/capship weapons (whatever works with the style of the ship, could be one destroyer style missile rack, or two destroyer style turrets, or six frigate style turrets, etc.). The station would have six resoruce collector drop-off points (four, nine whatever, remember they have faster movement, and lower storage capacity for RU's)(also, for normal gameplay, if would be nice if the special rescol's used the same resource dock slot as the normal rescol's, so the player can build the station for nomal gameplay, and have it actually be useful, and perhapse even more desirable than the double refinery), one module slot (standard modules, from hyperspace to engine improvement), and either one or two dock/launch bays. If two, one would be for fighters/corvettes, and the other for the special carriers. If one, then it would be large enough for the special carriers, and the fighets/corvettes would also dock/launch from the same bay. Whether or not these production slots need modules or not to do said production is in the air. The stations can build drones(?), fighters, corvettes, platforms (launch from large bay), the special resource collectors, and no other resource ships, utilities, the special carrier, and more stations. To note, you can either be able to hyperspace your frigates around, or build a platform module, and use HS gates, or you can improve you ships attack, or their defence, etc. Also to note, if you have a hs module, you can build more stations, and you can hyperspace the station itself (rediculously expensive, but the primary means of moving large distances). Finally, there is the special carrier to talk about: it is essentially a light carrier/frigate/ hybrid. The carrier may build either a corvette module, a fighter module, or a weapon system. It would be the minimum size possible to feasibly build corvettes. It does not have any module slots (so you can't build a HS module, any ship improvement module, or a platform module on it), nor does it have a resource drop-off bay. That would put its size right about that of a destroyer. I'm thinking that with a production module, it would have the firepower of a normal carrier (point defense guns), and with the weapon modules, it would have the firepower of a frigate, but not the armor of one. It would be more expensive than a frigate or carrier (whichever is cheaper, it's more expensive than that, but less expensive than the other), and generally have poorer everything than if you were to build a full blown frigate, or full blown carrier. If you choose to build a weapon module instead of a production module, your choices would generally be the same as all the kind of frigates. So you could build systems that are similar to the assault frigate, the heavy missile frigate, the command frigate, the artilley frigate (weapons, not the production systems), the laser frigate, the support frigate, etc. Again, the attack damage would be exactly the same as the frigates themselves, but the carrier would be slower, more expensive, and have less armor.

With this system, If you should be able to have a few artillery frigates left over, and if you had the foresight to keep some RU's in your storeholds, you should be able to build and HS in at least one station, and a few of those special collectors (from the station or the frigates themselves). Then you should be able to get enough RU's to build drones, fighters, corvettes, platforms, carrier substitutes (special carriers), frigate substitutes (special carriers), and utilities. Once the player looses his last real production ship (other than the station, possibly the only unit that the player may purposefully build when he still has his mothership and shipyards), the only things that he can build that are as effective as before he lost everything are stikecraft, platforms, utilities, and the resource station. Everything else he either has less effective, more expensive substitutes, or can't build at all. Then for the other player(s), finishing off your opponent just means eliminating the rest of the Vay players artillery frigates, and stations (which shouldn't be too hard to find), and the Vay player can no longer get more resources, then eliminate the special carriers to completely kill them (what threat they are, as all the player can do with the special carrier is build some more strikecraft with their remaining resources).

Idea's considered, but scrapped:
-Special carrier be a fusion destroyer/carrier, making it have a decent use when the player isn't about to die. Problem was, I couldn't figure any way to make it so that it wasn't too powerful when the player was about to die. It would always end up either more powerful than a frigate (and you didn't want to give players the ability to build units as powerful as frigates), and it would make no sense that one couldn't build frigates, but could build this unit.
-Special resource collector needing special dock slot, meaning special refinery, which the arty frigates would be able to build. Problem? I didn't want to make it so that the player could build refineries and the stations. I wanted to players to be stuck with slow, mostly stationary resource platforms. Which meant neither arty frigs, nor stations could build special refineries. So the stations alone would be able to serve as docking points for the special rescol's. But I also wanted the stations to be useful as a mostly stationary, well armed and armored refinery for normal resource collectors during normal gameplay. So: special rescols use same docking slot as normal rescols, or the station could either exchance, or have both dock types. Simplest solution was the first.

Firstly, thank you for your informative response.

-Impressive that you won the game eventually!

I must admit I originally posted without fully thinking the concept through, for instance, I missed the fact that you'd need to build a Research Module before any Hyperspace Module becomes available!

After more thought, I totally agree that a Shipyard would be a bit much to Hyper-in.
Should be Carrier at the most, and I didn't remember the Station/Outposts, they would be far more suitable to Hyper-in, in such a situation.

Posting from work, so its difficult to write as much as I'd like right now. I want to address all the points you've raised but it's tricky today.
This is a quick reply to acknowledge your post, same goes to you Hell_Diguner, unable to respond as I'd like for now.
~Ok, I found the time to upload some more screenshots but that is fairly mindless~
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Edited by: tadamir

I really didn't have the time to respond yesterday, I've read it, I wanted to, but I had no time.

Hell_Diguner : At fisrt I was surpsised when you said Supercarrier sized station. I thought it's way too much. But when I thought it through, it makes more sense than hyper in just the carrier, it's slower to make the actual carrier (which I like), it's slow to move and everything it should be. Plus you can't have it much smaller if you want to produce frigate/carrier hybrids (I love the ship idea. I had planned relativelly small production platforms/one-move stations with just an engine and production slot and nothing else, but this carrier/frigate is good, it's very Vaygr. And eventually maybe we can have both.).

Back on topic: I like the whole idea, I think it's very good as it is. Just few things:

-firtly I had an idea to split the frigate production slot to the utility one and the drone one, in case we will have smaller collectors. I still may do it, one for probes, one for traps and minelayers, but I think when we can have the station, I don't want to build collectors from the frigate at all. Let's keep it a long range warship with the scouting ability (probe production) and with few other usefull military things to build. Just keep the collectors out of this concept, because we can have them eventually from the station. (BTW I know already how would I like the station to look like).

-second thing: All right, we have an artillery frigate and it can build something like the HS module/HS beacon. This thing would fit to the Command frigates, but I have to find out, how to justify it for artillery frigates. I know we want it on Artillery frigates (BTW I'm not gonna rename them) and it's not very likely to have one command frigate to survive at the end together with Arty frigates, but how to justify it then? -fistly the module has to be expensive, but that's not really what I'm talking about. I'm talking about "How to make it so it won't seem to be weird to build thing like this on an artillery frigate"... For example call it an "energency HS beacon" or somehow allow to player to build it only when there's no other production ship (I have no idea how), or something else. Do you know what I'm talking about?

OR! To make it for both, command and artillery frigate, but make it researchable first. Something like a precautions you have to think about first, you have to plan, or you're screwed when the dissaster happen. Imagine thinking if you should invest a load of money to something you may not use, but what can save you. You don't do it and your MS will die and you would be thinking: "Why, why I didn't research it, it could be a lot easier now" or you do research it but the RU pressure will be to much to handle. Or imagine the situation when you know your MS is going down and you have nothing left except the frigates, you can't jump the MS and you know it will be dead pretty soon. Then you'll try to research this safety system while you still have the research module on your MS and while you still have the MS itself. When you make it in time before it blows up, you can continue. You can build your station from your artillery or command frigate and you're not dead yet. Or you won't research it in time and you're done.

I'm looking forward to make the small frigate/carrier, you know how I love hybrids. Actually, if you want me to make something, all you need to do is to call it a "hybrid" and you know I'm in.

tadamir: Still waiting for your oppinion/reply you couldn't make.

Edited by: Pouk

Wait, would Frigate hulks being stuffed into Frigates be silly?!

2) You have a good point, it may all be too much, and may cross that line from good game play to just annoying.
I can imagine the whole idea mirrored with the Hiigs too though

4) 'Modules are Huge!' - You know, I never really did do a studied comparison of a Module and a Frigate, or any other ship really.
Seems silly now.

Edited by: tadamir

Hmmm, so piecing things together, the scenario goes like this: Vay player for one reason or another has researched the (I'll call it) Emergeny Reinforcements Beacon (ERB)(I'm thinking more uses for this later, but now I'm trying to figure out exactly what you, Pouk, immediately have in mind now). This beacon is essentially a probe that can be built by the artillery frigate, and this probe is capable of building the Resource Station, which hyperspaces in as the "reinforcement". This station can then build normal resource collectors (maybe it has two docked already when if HS's in, I know it's possible) which can do their job, and dock with the station. Then the station can build the carrier/frigate hybrid, (and presumably some of the other things I mentioned? Probes, drones, platforms, fighters, corvettes?), and the carrier/frigate hybrid can either go an attack rout, or a production rout. Either way, it can mimic (poorly) almost any frigate and carrier on the Vay side.

Things I'd like to point out:
--The biggest one first, if the station can build frigate/carrier hybrids, why can't it build normal frigates, which would almost certainly be at least a little bit smaller? Potential solutions? (1) The production bay is shaped exactly like the carrier/frigate, and normal frigates wouldn't quite fit right... (2) The description of the unit tells the player that the station was large enough to have full blown fighter, corvette, platform, etc production capabilities, but in order to produce a unit the size of the frigate/carrier, it had to be formatted in such a way that the only larger unit it could build was said carrier/frigate, and there just wan't room for the equipment for other frigate or destroyer types. (3) The description tells the player that this station is an outdated version that has been reformatted so it can build carrier/frigates, the most versitile frigate sized ships that could possibly exist, but unfortunately, the station just didn't have the equipment to produce proper frigates, or larger units
--I would like to try and make this resource station fairly useful for when the player hasn't lost his entire fleet. As a sort of super refinery that is capable of holding it's own against noteworthy enemy groups (I'm thinking it ought to survive a destroyer, two frigates, three corvettes, and five fighters). But it's drawback is that it's super slow, and it is very expensive to hyperspace (so much so, it's usually cheaper to just build a new one), and it still won't stand a chance against a real enemy threat.
--For the purpose of when your fleet has been massacred, I would like to prevent the player from building any refineries, or really any vessel that resource collectors can dock to, so once the player screws up, and has is fleed pwned, he's stuck with having to use these big, easy to spot stations (well, not so easy to spot if they are in a dust field). But that means no collector docking slots on any of the frigates, and no ability to build refineries by any frigate or the resource (defence?) station.
--Yes I think one resource station should be able to build ERB's to hyper in more stations to new locations.
--What about letting the command frigate be able to build the probe production module (but not the drone module)? Then it can do reconossance itself (makes sense), and it can build the ERB (also makes sense). I would assume the production module would replace one of the sensors slots.
--Again, the frigate/carrier hybrid looks awesome, and it can become exactly like any normal frigate with the right module pack BUT it will always have lesser armor, and it will be slower.
--It is probably okay to let the stations hyperspace module be used for other nearby units, as it may be able to send them into combat, but it can't help in pulling them out.
--Finally (not really, there's one point that I'm forgetting, and it's driving me crazy, but I though of something else, and so now I want to write it down before I forget that too. Wait, what was it? ---oh, yeah, that's right), It would be neat to have 3-4 small stations with the same base design as the resource (defence?) station. They could all be HS'd in by the ERB (Now thinking just Station Hyperspace Beacon). Probably one that would act as a foreward position holding station (plenty of attack power, but not much armor, and susceptible to bombers killing all of it's weapons)(this guy would be relatively cheap, and player would use it to "stake their claim" so to say. would be nice to give this guy some super long range point defences to thwart enemy probes and scouts), maybe a more defensive station (for the vaygr it would be more to absorb enemy fire away from their shipyards and other production ships, and the hiigaran version would be more production based, like a well armored and armed carrier (not supercarrier though, more armor, less speed, less awesome ion goodness). Additionally, maybe the defense staion could build automated repair drones on both sides), and some sort of command/ecm/reconnosance station (giant probe with command corvette attributes, it can see farther than any unit, is the only station that can have a hyperspace inhibitor, can immediately detect cloaked ship within a certain radius (small radius), and is also the only station besides the resource station the can build units (probes, cloaked fighters, smaller platforms (not sure about the platforms))).
--Remembered that one point. All station should act like hyperspace gates that allow free (or really cheap) travel between stations and hs gates. For the "you screwed up and now you're in your death throws" part of the game, this would allow you to be able to quickly and cheaply move all of your defences to any one station being attacked (but of course, your opponent can always sneak attack on one of your now undefended stations). Then for not "you screwed up and now you're in your death throws" gameplay, you can move your own units around quickly and cheaply within your own "territory" but your speed and expenses are normal outside your "area of control". Difinitely thinking of allowing the Hiigs to have HS gates too, for this exact reason. Particularly when you want to link one station with two others, you're going to need one link from station to your particular station, and the other a nearby HS gate to the other far station. Think large network of HS gates and stations within your territory, great for responding to threats quickly, and getting here and there quickly in larger maps, but also prime targets for your opponents. This opens a whole new type of strategy to the game, without too much work, really.

So the stations would be: Sized about that of the supercarrier (volume wise I would think, maybe a little smaller), built by the Station Hyperspace Beacons (which may be divided into each type of station, for instance, Resource Station Hyperspace Beacon, or Frontline Defence Station Hyperspace Beacon, just to be sure that the artillery/command frigate can only build that one type of station), be incredibly slow (but can move none-the-less so as to reposition themselves just right after being built), heavily armored, decently armed, have inherent hyperspace gate abilities (or researchable, whatever), and be able to hyperspace itself and other units the normal way too)
--Resource (Defense?) Station-- ultimate refinery (only station with rescol dock points too) | can build rescol's, fighters, corvettes, drones(?), platforms(?), the frigate/carrier hybrid and utilities/probes | only station that can be built by artillery frigates and command frigates (the aformentioned frigates being able to build this station by proxy with the Resource (Defence?) Station Hyperspace Beacon)
--Line Station-- highest firepower of all the stations | largest variety of weapons of all the stations | lower armor | can dock units, but produce none | cheaper than all the other stations
--Defense Station-- largest armor of all stations | can build repair drones (one of the few ships that can)(SYK, to me, the repair drones stay docked normally, are told by the station to undock if the station detects a friendly unit within a special modules radius that doesn't have full health, the drones cannot be controled by the player, the automatically repair any units withing the modules field of effect, and when the module/drones don't detect any more units, the drones automatically redock. Point of automated repair drones is that they are automatic) | can also build fighters, corvettes, drones, platforms and gunboats (note, cannot build frigates, utilities, or probes) | can dock up to gunboats
--Reconnosance Staion-- most expensive of all stations | can build cloaked fighters, probes, and utilities | has a huge radius of sight, largest of all units | can detect cloaked units within a (relatively small) radius | can also cloak, and provides sensor distortion properies | is almost impossible to find if it's in a dust cloud | can dock up to fighters

--Thinking about combining the Line Station and Defense Station together for the Vaygr, and having the two seperate for the Hiigarans... It's late at night though, I'm not going too much further.

The cool thing about these stations is they add a whole new dimension of strategy without changing much of anything in the game other than adding the units themselves (hopefully, I see no problem so far...). And these are small stations, there's still room for shipyard sized stations, and even larger stations if you want them Pouk.

...hehe, I used to drive the Complex guys nuts with long forum posts like this. At least they're interesting though. I hope. Too lazy to run this though word for spelling and grammar.

I finally have a time to reply. Finally...:

tadamir:
1)
-I don't want to make a refinery out of the support frigate. I can't really see the difference between this and proper refinery. The frigate RU drop-off problem isn't really a problem. The question was, if to make RU drop-off points on the artillery frigate and I've decided it wasn't a good idea. But making RU drop-off points on a completely different frigate is... just totally different thing than we have been originally talking about. Or do you expect that some special frigate with the same function as the refinerry (and size and speed and weaponry, only with less HP) would survive with your artillery frigates? Well, maybe you're right, it could survive, because it wouldn't be bounded by the refinery unitcaps and you can have lot of them. But that's even bigger problem. I'm sorry to say it, but I think it is a bad idea.
-With the current system you can't collect debris into frigates. Just because you have all sizes of debris and the biggest ones are collected into the frigate sized docks. So I would have to divide the debris into two families and add another dockpath into all ships which can serve for this purpose. It is possible, it's easier than it sounds, but as I said, I just don't want to do it. I originally didn't see anything bad about it, but now I don't want to allow frigates do this, I can't see the point and after a while of upgrades like this in Homeworld, the only difference between the ships would be the size and the speed, because every ship would be able to do everything. Making frigates to call a base if really far enough and I won't go any further than that. Actually, this frigate building ability will be a very rare thing. I think only Vaygr will be able to do it.

3)
-You would feel bad if you would get something that others don't? Well, I would enjoy it.

4)
Ok, I'll call them modules and the rest subsystems. But anyway I have one module on a frigate, the inhibitor I was talking about. I've made the radius of it even smaller.

5)
Beacon. The beacon idea is older, because I wanted to use beacon for one specific gamerule/starting fleet thing. And I was about to make the beacons as you're talking about them -probes.
But now I was actually speaking about subsystem beacons, so it can be also mounted on a command frigate. But the probe beacon is much better. I won't be a subsystem, it really will be a probe/platform. It will build just a few much more expensive things and you would have to research all of them first -except the mining base I guess (wait, did we call it a "mining base"? Let's call it the Mining base. Or does it have to be on an asteroid to be called that way? Can I use the term for a flying base?")
And a small hyper radius? You know I didn't want it to hyperspace near ships, only call the ships from somewhere (like you call the shipyard). The HS gates would be larger than this and they can transport only strikecrafts. Proper HS modules are huge compared to a tiny probe.
So I have a solution:
Let's this safety systems be researched under the name "Hyperspace beacon". The proper beacon would be a frigate sized base. It could hyper in all kinds of ships as the probe HS beacon can (those kinds we have talked about, no production vessels and only the Mining base wouldn't require research). But it could also work as a HS module for nearby ships. Another research unlocks those tiny probe beacons of ours and they won't be able to HS anything out, only HS it in. (It does make sense, doesn't it? Like a small HS targeting beacon. Maybe all of HS modules have similar system to call in shipyards.)
And this would be VAYGR THING ONLY. No Hiigarans would have this beacons.

Hell_Diguner:

Not only artillery frigate can build beacons. The large beacons (as I suggested above) would be buildable in carriers etc.)
Great idea with the two docked collectors.

--I can't see no problem in this. Because:
Purpose of carriers in HW2 is to build. Purpose of the Mining base (still not sure if I can call it this way, but I like it) is to collect RU. You can expect everything from it, it has limited ship factory and it can build only a few types of units. I really can't see anything even remotely wrong about it.
But: (1) Possible but probably no. The hybrid would have to be bigger than frigate in order to build what we have talked about. Frigate can easily fit into whatever door you make especially for hybrids. So I don't think it would be used as an explanation. But it really can be used for aesthetic purposes.
(2) As I said, it will be a fact and I don't believe we have to justify it.
(3) Again the same thing. You know what would I put into description instead? This: "You can make a tomato soup in your kitchen, but if you're in your bathroom, the only thing you can get is the hot water, deal with it. (even when your bathroom is bigger).

--You people are all talking about all those things like they're (or at least I think they are) buildable and unlocked only by the artillery frigate. But I've always saw it as "also" in the artillery frigate. Beacons, stations, hybrids... you can build them in your MS if you want (depends on research, modules, other circumstances, but possible.). So don't worry, I'm aware of the possibility of using it elsewhere.

--I understand. I have no problem with no refineries after a player screw up. I welcome that.

--yes... (I've wrote it just so you know I'm not talking about the next thing..)

--command frigates: because i was talking about beacon subsystem and not beacon probe at that time, let's keep it as probe and let's not build anything from command frigate. It has large sensors already, I'm not sure if it needs probes. But I'm not rejecting the idea. Maybe with research or something. Maybe I'll do it.

--yeah. What about the unitcaps? I have to say I want it under carriers, because putting it under frigates would cause the same problem as with the frigate refineries of tadamir. I don't want to enlarge the number you can build of those specific units as refinery and carrier.

--good point.... But wait, it can. It can jump close to them to rescue them. I do it often, I'm doing those rescue operations when I jump to my units with carrier in order to save them. I've once even jumped to the badly damaged allied AI destroyer, which was under attack and he's used the HS range of my carrier as I presumed and jumped the DD to safety.

--Nice, looks like we both have the same ideas about the HS beacons, except... What? Defense, command ability, building, what else? The thing I wanted is just a beacon. Flying HS module with hyper-in ability. What you have is lot of things. How big is it? Big right? It has to be big when it can do everything what ships in HW2 can do and even the things we just talk about they should do. I'm sorry, my HS beacon will be just what I said it will be, for big stations will be time later.

--oh... wow.... that is a great idea actually. Really great idea. Well, I again see it pretty much different way than you do, but what you've said is brilliant.
But what i don't like about it firstly: No HS gates for Hiigarans, I don't want this. You can't link more than two HS gates together and I'm almost certain it's not possible with any amount of effort. And finally, I'm not sure about the HS gates for big ships, I believe that if you allow big ships to use HS gates (if it's possible at all), they would use all of the gates, including the original ones an there won't probably be a way to separate this.
But what I see as brilliant. The base of what you've said. I was keep thinking what else to do for HS beacons, because it seemed as not enough just to hyper-in ships and use them as HS module if they're the big version. It can also serve as a HS gate and link to any HS gate in a game. Which i think is just perfect idea. Not only you can HS out (with the big one) the frigates and DDs, but also strikecrafts. And I know it's possible and easy, because I was testing HS gates before. I'll also tell you what any ship after you link it to another gate can't do: It can't move and it can't shoot (yes I was trying to make an armed HS gates, didn't work). But no problem in my plan, I didn't wanted to make HS beacons to be armed in the first place and I wanted them to be one-shot only. ...wait... I hope they can build after link, I have to check this! Because this would be a problem.

-Surprise, so many HS beacons? I wanted only two... I guess you have different ideas. Maybe, but as I said, it can't be a gate and a turret at the same time.

--Don't call it defense station, we are somewhere else again if you want it to be a defense station...

--Well, all your station ideas... I didn't read them all, because I don't want to make anymore stations right now and because I have my own stations ideas. Actually, a lot of stations ideas, believe me. Plus stations aren't even a priority, so I'm not even sure if to make all of my own stations...

No problem with long post, really.

Edited by: Pouk

Hi Pouk,
1) You know what, you are absolutely right, I'm thinking now my ideas weren't very well thought out at all and I'm actually glad you are saying no.
I should have sat on the idea for a day or two and thought of all the angles.
You said it, eventually all the ships would be the same - just different sizes, not good.

2) It's reassuring that you are unwilling to compromise your core vision for what your mod should be, but it is also good that you are willing to listen to people's ideas, like Hell_Diguners' above, and perhaps incorporate them.

3) Ha, don't get me wrong, I would enjoy it immensely, was being humble I guess.

4) Yeah I face-palmed again when I re-read some stuff, of course you already have Modules/Subsystems on the Command Frigate, sorry!
Hope you had a look at that site I linked anyway.

5) Ok, that all makes sense, far more sense than what I was thinking and yes, for Vaygr Only. The solution you wrote is way better.

- Conclusion; sit back and let you get on with what you are doing, and doing so well.

(Man, you would've hated my lame idea for a Laser Frigate! Feel free to point and laugh; that's 6 BC point defense lasers scaled down maybe 30%, with at least a 30% reduction in stats. The grey stuff is Ion Cannon Frigate 'steam' animation to represent the heat given off by the huge batteries of power generators for the lasers. To be clear, I'm not suggesting this, just showing you a thought experiment!)

Edited by: tadamir

2) I listen, I do. I'm curious what you guys come up with and it's already absolutely certain that I'll make the resource base and the hybrid and it was your people idea, based on what you have started. But I know what I want to do, I know it exactly and sometimes it doesn't fit into my plans. I'm willing to implement anything, but it have to make sense in the bigger picture. My opinion sometimes may be about personal preferences, I'm human as everyone, but I really do try to base it on logic (and game logic) and Homeworld tradition. You've said "unwilling to compromise your core vision" and I guess you're right. But that's how it is. I'm not sure if I'm not too strict in this, but I do listen to new ideas and when someone has a different opinion than me or say that I'm wrong, I want him to explain it and I think about it.
But basically: if my vission was fuzzy, it would be way easier for you to help me model this vision. But because I know exactly what I want and why, it's kinda harder for you.

4) I did. It's a great site, I have downloaded everything about the ships once from there, but I've forget about it, now I've recalled.

5) lame? It's not lame. It would be lame if you would actually want to base it on the support frigate hull, but the concept isn't lame at all. Let me think... Only problem is that my laser frigate (which is only on paper yet) uses the same weapons (which I mean lances, well, modified lances). What to do?...
Maybe, to make a super heavy frigate or super light destroyer out of it, because on BC those weapon positions are pretty huge. It would be strictly anti-corvette and maybe anti-fighter I guess.
I like the shape which emerge in my head when I think about those narrow black weapon positions, so I do want to do something about it, but it has to be different than my laser frigate as well.
When I'll figure out something I'll let you know.

Edited by: Pouk

2) I said this - "unwilling to compromise your core vision" as a very good thing, I'm really glad that is how it is.

So many other mods don't seem to have a strong enough concept/vision to start with and allow too much external input to compromise the original idea.
Perhaps because most other Mods are collaborations of teams of people, whereas your's is just you (to a large extent; scripting help, etc aside).
I don't think you are being too strict on this at all. Your level of strictness on this is what's keeping your mod so damn good.

Stay strict! Don't water it down!

~Ironic for me to say considering some of the crazy ideas I've suggested, but anything I suggest I'm glad will be put through your logic test, and you've been right a few times already.

4) Choice

5) I thought it lame because I did base it on the Supp Frig. I don't have that creative spark of originality.
I can only adapt what others have created which is frustrating but that's how it is for me.

Conceptually I don't think it's lame, I'm thinking now that a 30% reduction in size and stats won't be enough to make those massive laser apertures fit, but that number must be the easiest part to figure out. Also I thought that 6 may be too much; 4 at most, considering the BC is so much larger and only powers 4.

I don't think using those lasers is lame at all, it makes sense to me; they have the tech already, I can imagine the Vaygr using what they already have in different ways.
Trying to cram 4 of those excellent weapons into a smaller, cheaper, more maneuverable ship would make sense in a desperate situation wouldn't it?
They have a Frigate Chassis, they have the weapons tech, I can't think why they wouldn't.
The shape of the Hull is what I couldn't come up with, and which you do so well.
(I did imagine some kind of 'puffer-fish' shape though, and was pleased to read somewhere here that you were thinking something similar? Fishy anyway)
I encourage you to do your idea of the laser Frigate, use these lasers if you wanted to, and take your time.
From what you've come up with so far, I don't doubt it would be appropriate and awesome.

2) Ok then

5) Wait a minute... I'm not sure what exactly are you saying, if to use this for the laser frigate hull I've planned or something else, and I can't really process it very well (I didn't sleep last night and now I'm on redbull to keep me awake because of some other work... But don't worry, the mod release isn't in danger)... So I don't really want to think today.
But whatever you've said, it changed my opinion on the current Vaygr laser concept. My laser weapons could have been efective if I would find out how to do what i wanted to do, but now I'm chaging it to those "holes" (not really sure how to call it) with the hull of my original laser frigate concept. It will look much nicer.

5) Haha, I know that feeling only too well; No Sleep+Work=Redbull.
Yup, use the BC lasers on the Laser Frigate hull you've planned (fish-like one, that's all I know about it) is what I meant, especially if that was your intention all along.
Ignore the Support Frigate hull, I only used that as the easiest hull-shape to convey the idea.

Ah, which "holes" are you referring to?

No need to reply today, take the day off!
It's the internets, it'll still be here tomorrow!

No problem, it will be short:
5) it wasn't my intention all along, I had some special laser turrets (with beams in the frigate hull), but BC style lasers make much more sense and will look far better. The original idea seems stupid now in comparison to BC lasers... holes... Those are the holes I'm talking about. The black long narrow shooting windows of the BC lasers.
So basically what I said was "I'm going to use your BC laser concept on a frigate which was supposed to look different at first".

Haha, ok, that makes it very clear, cheers for the clarification Pouk.

>_< My internet wasn't working for two days, so that's why I had no response. Glad to see some of my ideas you like Pouk. The main point of me handing ideas to you is so you can consider them to fit into your style. My main point of all the stations descriptions etc. was to suggest the idea of frigate to battlecruiser sized -mostly- immovable defensive ships, imply that they have their own unit cap, imply that the unit cap would be large (~corvette sized?), and imply the additional layers of tactical gameply that these units could add to the game. And then to also suggest that larger stations could be implemented as you had previously been planning along with these smaller stations (searching for a better name for these smaller stations... bunkers, garrisons, fortifications ... mining/defenseive/reconnosance garrisons? maybe not).

I was talking about different types of HS beacons because I wanted to make sure that the artillery frigate could only build the HS beacon type that could only build the mining station (garrison), and not the other station types. I just wanted to suggest a solution to that problem, there are several other solutions that come to mind too.

If the Hiigs don't have HS gates, do they have HS beacons for their own stations? Or perhapse the stations must be built by a carrier or other production ship. No, I don't like that, far as I personally see it, both races must have stations (for back and forth strategic gameplay, you love the Vaygr, don't you want to use all your special purpose super lethal ships on some targets of interest other than the boring old hiigaran production ships, and boring old resource pockets?), both races must hyperspace the stations in with HS beacons (though the Vay beacons might be able to act as HS gates, and the Hiig ones not...), and both races must have a good variety of said stations.

Wait, if the Vay HS beacons also have HS gate abilities, is there any point in having seperate units? Then again, the HS gate platform couldn't possibly be produced by a frigate (platforms are larger than rescol's). Maybe make the HS gates a little cheaper, and the HS beacons significantly more expensive (not too much of course)?

Oh yes, allow any ship that can build probes to build HS beacons, definitely. But if all your (real) production ships die, then the only unit left that could build the beacons would be your trusty old artillery frigate. Still think it would make sense if the command frigate could build probes and HS beacons though. The command frigate is more the communications ship after all. But that would mean making a production system for the command ship.... ....hmmm, just had another idea, automated scout drones... buildable by the command frigate. Might have to visit that though.

Laser frigate: BC laser slit (thumbs up), new laser turret specifically designed for this frigate (thumbs down).
I would like you to give a second thought about my laser frigate idea though (would need a different name). The one that's more anti-capships than anti-corvettes. If nothing else, consider it in some sort of Hiigaran frigate version. For the Hiigs, it would work well as their version of the artillery frigate. Or the idea could work well as one of the options for a customizable frigate module (like the vay artillery frigate's many modules) that isn't as powerful as the ion cannon, and isn't as weak as a pulsar.

Edited by: Hell_Diguner

I'll definitelly reply to that later, I just don't have the time nor energy for more now.
So just some things:

-Command frigate building probes: yeah, why not. It does make sense and it's not anything complicated, it's a detail, I can give it to you to the 0.0.3b.. (not beacons, just the probe subsystem)

-HS beacons, all the Hiigs thing... You know I really don't want to make HS beacons for Hiigaran and of course it's also because I like my Vaygr, but... Listen. Why would I for example couldn't do a whole fleet of stations for Hiigaran and make only few for Vaygr.. for example. Why shouldn't I give HS beacons only to Vaygrs? It's not that great thing, it's handy, it makes them more mobile (which I want) and it's one of the things I like for Vaygr (you know, those nasty surprise, Vaygr definitelly need more nasty surprises and mobility). I'll be giving them all those things which makes you jumping you your chair laughing and clapping, no matter how mature you are, while Hiigarans will get more modularity, more defense, stronger armor... And Hiigarans also get their Hi-tech toys. Hiigaran are Hi-tech race and it's easier to make something like this, some "evil" hi-tech weapon for them then for Vaygr. So don't be surprised when I find something which fits Vaygr very well and I want to dedicate it only to them. Because Hiigarans have it easier, you can make all kinds of ideas for them: defense shields, drones, cloaking, holograms, HS driven mines, black holes emitors, antimatter beams... I could continue (actually I couldn't I can't think now, but normally I could, believe me..) So, beacons are Vaygr only... It makes them mobile, inpredictible, it allows them to rise from dead (your base and hybrid carrier). You don't think it's perfect? I can't hardly think about anything better for them.

Anyway... I've said I don't have a time... Well, I guess I'll see the morning sunshine before I'll go to bed. I still have a lot of work to do.

I'm not sure if I have anything else to say and it was supposed to be short at first.

Edit:
Anyway what I wanted to say was that I didn't do anything much for Hiigarans yet and that they'll have also some special technology, but finding this kind of things for Vaygr is harder. I know I was talking about it like it was some kind of a superweapon, it isn't, but it basically describes what I think.

There's nothing else I wanted to reply at. Your frigate? Yes you had this kind of frigate, with huge cannon. It's basically a ion frigate with laser or something, I don't remember. Anyway that's why I didn't wanted it for Vaygr, because I thought it's too much like an ion frigate. So what was the essense? You're saying anti-capships and artillery? If it was Hiigaran then what?

Edit 2:
Commad frigate now can build probes (not drones).

Edited by: Pouk

Lol, all three of us are on at one time... first time ever. Real post coming momentarily...

Edit: (hopefully you notice this edit since editing doesn't update the forum by saying that there has been a new post)
Well, I see your point with the Hiig HS beacon (or lack therof). As well as the "rise (more like limp, but still...) from the dead". I guess the Hiigarans will build stations with normal capital production ships.

The frigate concept was deliberately made to be as non-hiigaran ion cannon as possible. I had two large (laser corvette style) laser type weapons mounted one above the other. The idea was they would fire at a similar speed, maybe even faster than the laser corvette's weapons. Damage would be low (firerate high). Range would be lower than the hiig ion cannon frigate. So the unit would be more like the large calliber kinetic turrets (close range unit) than anything else. All in all, the only thing making the unit like the ion cannon frigate is that it's weapons are fixed foreward, and it fires a weapon that looks a little like a pulsar, and pulsars are associated as tiny ion cannons.

I would imagine the Hiigaran version firing either large plasma bombs, or gigantic pulsars. The Hiigaran adaptation would make sense as an artillery frigate more than anything else. If it fires large plasma bombs, I would imagine two to four scaled up bomber styled plasma bomb launchers that recoiled as they fired (vay laser corvette recoil is only example). If it fired gigantic pulsars, I would imagine two to four specially designed weapons that also recoiled as they fired (again, laser vette only example), but I can't seem to think of an example for the new weapons appearence. Best I can do to describe it would be like an ion cannon frigate's weapon innards moved to be externally attached to the frigate, scaled down a bit, and, of course, it fires in quick bursts like a pulsar, not long like the ion cannon. Once the weapon's appearence is solidified, it could also be used on a modular slot for destroyers (heavy destroyer modular fixed foreward weapons slot?) and larger vessels.

Come to think of it though, the Hiigarans are the more modular based race, and the vaygr are supposed to be very non-modular. So maybe have a modular frigate hull, with an upper and a lower weapon slot. Then have all sorts of weapon systems that could be placed on either one or the other. Three different anti-capship type weapon modules, two different anti-fighter ones, two anti-corvette (probably 1 fighter only, one both, and one corvette only), two different artillery modules, several (I mean like... seven or more) non-combat modules etc. The flak module would need to "build" the nose of the flak frigate and have the actual turret floating behind it, so in-game it looks like the flak frigate itself. Ditto any pulsar turret system, or any turret system really. You'll notice frigates seem to be more left/right weapon oriented than the vaygr top/bottom. Even the flak turrets can be differentiated as left or right, so it only makes sense that the modules would be left/right. I'd assume the modular frigate would have a "blank" front so fixed foreward weapons won't look strange, and then the turret based modules would need to "rebuild" the left/right sides of the frigate.

I'm not jumping the gun by suggesting the basis of the modular frigates though am I? It seemed like it flowed too well to not go ahead and talk about it. This is the "Frigate Fun(ctionality)" thread too...

Edited by: Hell_Diguner

I like the left/right orientation (I can also use exising modular DD icons icon for this) and it will support the Hiigaran asymmetry. I'll make them.

About the laser frigate... I'll see, not for Vaygr. Maybe something I'll make for Hiigaran will be similar to this idea of yours, but I have other plans.

hello everyone first ever post

1)On the Vaygr front. I'm surprised no one has mention it this a hyperspace frigate. it is a frigate with a hyperspace gate mounted on the front. when moving around normally the 4 arms will be closed together but when it is stopped one can chose to activate it. when activated the hyperspace gate's arms open and allow travel through. it would have some sort of defense like 2 of the assault ships turrets, i think as everyone one says "it's very Vayyygar" it would enable long range hit and run to different locations.

2)On the Hiigarans front what about a recon frigate with better sensors (between normal and probe) as well as some sort of EMP burst weapon that affects a radius around the ship to allow for a get away or to be used offensively, what every floats your boat. and some way of self defense apart from this like Hiigaran Gunship turrets or nothing substantial so that is essentially a large scout. could also have the ability for short jumps but doesn't grant the ability to anyone else or some sot of cloaking. ideal it could have a small hanger to carry scouts but not sure.

fantastic work so far, i discovered this mod looking for cool concept art the Hiigaran super carrier is beautiful.
3)but in my personal opinion it doesn't need the ion cannon turret, perhaps the twin perhaps the turret of the ion platform except perhaps boosted. my reasoning is that it becomes too offensive for what is a shipyard, and the ion cannon is on what looks like the bridge of the ship. if you long range punch perhaps long range missiles vertical launch would look nicer because it would disrupt the beautiful lines of the ship.

anywho thats enough of me talking i have alot more ideas if you need them though Pouk

Regards

Edited by: commander-jao

Hi and welcome. Basically, you have good ideas.

1) I did try, others did try and it's one of the thing that simply doesn't work. Forums.relicnews.com I've found the fact that the gate/ship doesn't shoot after establishing the HS link myself when I was attempting to make advanced gates. Apparently it also won't move.
BTW, I really would like to make such frigate, with the four opening jaws on the front, it would be so nice. Well, it can be done, if you're fine with using it only once. You can't take it back after making the link. ...Let me think, maybe there'll be something to use it for (the HS beacon family for example, or just HS gate which can withstand much more damage and fly around and shoot before it makes the link).

2) You'll get at least one Hiigaran recon frigate, it's planned.

3) Hmm. I won't remove the turret, sorry. But I was thinking about including the Supercarrier into the more advanced research. Yes, there'll be another level of research for things that will come, I'm seriously considering making research station for level 3 for Hiigarans and research ship for level 2 for Vaygr. Under this research will be Battleships for example and maybe the Supercarrier as well. This way it would be more later ship and it would be fine, because compared to the battleships it won't be that strong anymore.

If you have more, say it. I'm curious.