I have some hard dilemma here and after few weeks of not being able to reach a decision I thought it is a good time to ask the community.
Braces yourself for incoming wall of texts.
So I've got some ideas about what I can do with two of the unused GDI's units I have in the mod's files, The Sandstrom and Bulldog, The issue is how it will fit in with the mod's balance and also lore wise,
I originally wanted from these two to be a pure easter eggs that you can get around the maps through different means, but part of my thought it be an huge waste.
I start having many random ideas about what I can do with them but for each idea I also had some opposite thought about why I shouldn't do it,
I can basically split the ideas to two sections, Unit's train and Support power,
Starting with the unit's train:
Idea 1) To replace Slingshot with Sandstorm for ST,
--- Opposite thoughts: ST already have too much new toys, by defalut they had Titans, Wolverines, Combat engi and MRTs, plus railgun accelerator support power which was meh for the most part, In Big bang I'ved edited their Hammerhead, Riflemans, and Behemoth to have more garrison slots, replaced their Meat-Shield-MARV with Mastodon, the Orca with Orca A16, and gave them the Steel troopers and a new defence structure which also give them a new support power (All while tweaking, fixing, and improving existing stuff),
Adding the Sandstrom may be too much at this point and may required from me to replace their AA battery and the upgrade (And also to make a new sub object to the tech lab model for after the upgrade) and to do something similar to 2 other factions from the Scrin's and Nod's sides if I want things to be fair, which can be too much of a work for little gain plus in Big bang Missiles are ZOCOM's theme (And yeah I know no one is forcing me to add replacement for the AA battery or the upgrade, Nor add anything similar to the other factions, but I feel it be more true to the mod if I do it this way).
Idea 2) To replace ZOCOM's Slingshot with Sandstorm Or at least make it trainable from the MARV's hub instead of Slingshot,
--- Opposite thoughts: While it's changeable, Sandstorm right now act a bit more like how the HMRLS was in TS to fit the lore, it's fine against tanks but not super powerful (its advantages in the mod is that it have the same attack range as the missile squad, and have the missile barrages ability) And deals less damage to planes like it did in TS,
I can change it ofc but it fit more to the HMRLS style from TS's days and the Slightshot's gattling guns always suppress missiles when it comes to speed anyway, but the missiles can be edited to deal nearly the same damage I guess,
Anyway assuming I leave it the same way (i.e less good against air) I don't see it as a positive change cause when a player wants to get a good Anti air what he going to get will be the Sandstrom ^^... changing plus into a minus is not my thing,
When it also come to Toys ZOCOM may have too much at this point as well, ZOCOM had in vanilla Zone orca, Zone Shatterer, and Zone raiders while also got some upgrades that buff their inf and planes overall, and in Big bang they also got the Condor, the Zone juggy, and Zone Rig, (and also some edited support powers, All while tweaking, fixing, and improving existing stuff as well) and I may need to replace the battery and upgrade too again just like with ST's case, so I don't sure about this one,
Also for these of you who are dedicated ST/TS fans and thinks: "WTH?! Sandstorm only fit ST!!!" Allow me to ruin your image about ST with Wiki's reality xP, They never were the exact same army as GDI was in TS, they're some leftovers who got their own branch in GDI as a sub-faction with experimental tech, which is also the reason why their Titans and Wolverines aren't the same versions of the ones they've used in TS, also think about it, in TS they had Disruptors which are the Shatterer's predecessor, why they don't got sonic tech in KW? simple, cause it's a different game that have different gameplay and split the techs between two factions that together create the main one, that is also why Sandstorm will fit more to ZOCOM who need fast units in their red zones trips over ST.
Idea 3) (Unrelated to the Sandstrom) To replace ZOCOM's Pitbull with Bulldog and edit their APC's model to shoot missiles instead,
--- Opposite thoughts: Will take some work over a little gain, I kinda like ZOCOM how they are tbh and don't see a reason for this drastic tier 1 change.
You're still with me after all that? good, good ^^
So after trying to go with the trainable route I also start thinking about adding them via support powers instead, similar to what I did with the MoK's Reapers instead of adding them to the Hand of Nod with no role or add them to the war factory to replace the beam cannon (which was a minus cause beam cannons can support Obelisks/Venoms and strong in numbers), so adding them as support power only felt more right in their case, Which bring me to the Support power ideas section ;D :
Idea 1) Bascially I can make some a support power that will call two Bulldogs and two Sandstorms for one of the GDI's factions,
--- Opposite thoughts: But balance wise ST and ZOCOM are already packed (I mean, ZOCOM when it comes to inf reinforcements, While ST are packed with new vehicles instead of calling for inf at all and have less reinforcements support powers as result), and lore wise it may less fit for GDI (and I will need to add another thing for Nod if I do so and I have no clue what to give them atm aside from the plans I already have for them)
Also in Big Bang since GDI are the mix of the two sub factions which give them pretty much access to both techs, they're mostly got only two new support powers that spawns new units (Kodiak and Field troopers.... Aside tweaking, fixing, and improving existing stuff ofc lol ;D) so I dk if it's a good idea to give it to them too as it may feel like too much,
Plot wise the Sandstrom and Bulldog could fit to any of them with the right excuses but will mostly fit the sub factions
Idea 2)
I can just add the support power to all GDI's factions as well and call it a day,
--- Opposite thoughts: But that will feel less right imo.
I hope you now understand why I'm so puzzled with these decisions ^^ (or just think I'm doing big of a deal out of nothing ;D)
I will be glad for any advice I could get, and if nothing will feel right I can just leave things the way they were where both of them just stays as easter eggs.
Lemme know your thoughts below
Why not add it to regular GDI forces while keeping it out of subfactions?
I'll if GDI will stay close to the original faction they are, considering they have the both sub factions tech together:p
my opinion is you really should give sandstorm to ST, as it would give the TS feeling as much as this game can give, plus if you give it to other GDI subfactions, it would be weird to see ST with all those improved versions of TS stuff with slingshot, but other factions with TS MLRS derived Sandstorm.
we should not really take into consideration KW subfaction logic, as there is no any... at least i dont see myself
The logic is that Steel Talons have heavy armor focus but eschew infantry or airforce, and while reusing some TS units they're not explicitly a throwback faction but a heavy vehicle faction thus lack in other TS throwbacks like disc throwers or orca bombers, ZOCOM are about mobility and high damage output, abandoning railguns for more unique weaponry.
Exactly, and one of their emphasis in Big bang aside sonic and emps is missiles.
Sandstorm for Steel Talons exclusive by replace the slingshot to give the faction further the Tiberian sun gameplay. It would make sense to make GDI & ST most of their entire arsenal different from each other due with by their backstory. GDI changes their blueprints of their units by replacing most such as Titan for Predator tank and Mammoth Mk2 for Mammoth tanks to reduce costs, HMRLS for slingshot because of the Ionstorms and disrupter for shatterer for combat tiberium crystals by C&C3;. Steel Talons leader ''General Joshua Mitchell'' thought Turning full attention from Nod to Tiberium research would be foolish and got funding from GDI to allow develop new combat tech for their old units and create the division of the subfaction. With GDI replacing their TS units for cheaper complete different designs in C&C3;, Steel Talons created after Firestorm to upgrade their TS units with increased combat for Nod conflict.
totally makes sense
Except Talons aren't an old tech reusing throwback division as much as experimental heavy vehicle division. Hence they don't use other old tech like orca bombers, jumpjet or disc thrower infantry or firestorm tech, just walkers, heavier armor and means to support them like repair APC, that's their singular focus. You could argue both Slingshot and Hover MLRS/Sandstorm do or don't fit their doctrine because they're not frontline vehicles and lack in armor, but at same time they need solid anti-air to patch the gap in their walker forces so either works. Just, well, hard to call either more fitting.
agree, but as you said, its hard to say which fits better: slingshot or sandstorm
so why not to add Sandstorm to Steel Talons as, lets say, a tribute to TS?
plus, as we remember, during TS GDI mostly used missile based SAM systems (except maybe jumpjet infantry), which is definetely a Sandstorm HMLRS
We shouldn't also forgot that in a way slingshot is the true successor of the HMLRS too, especially if people turn blind eye to TT plot and wiki, so in a way ST don't need better anti air tech cause they already got the slingshot,
In this mod ZOCOM emphasis is also on missiles aside sonic and emps, so give it to ST put me in the spot a bit when it come to each faction's doctrine ^^
i like idea 2 and 3, and ideea 1(for the reinforcements). I think that every subfaction needs to have something special to focus. sandstorm and bulldog need to replace the previous units at least in a faction. for the game to be diverse. besides sandstorm was a unique unit from westwood that needs to reappear, him being unexpendable in second tiberium war.
adding more units will make the game more fun but every unit needs to have a role, to be useful or at least counter effectively other type of units.
Cnc.fandom.com Sandstorm wiki
Cnc.fandom.com Bulldog wiki
Give the Sandstorm unit to Steel Talons.
I think the whole idea around why GDI's military in C&C 3 is so different is because of complacency and Penny pinching. If you look at the Intel databases such as the Mammoth MK2 one it will tell you that penny pinching had reformed GDI military hence why they shut down MK2 factories as Nod was more lethargic and emasculated that even their recruitment was down by 25%. Renegade Havoc even disavowed the halt of MK2 production stating that this decision would play into Kane's hands. (from one of the intels) Zocom is dedicated to fighting Tiberium, Steel Talon's purpose is directly to counter Blackhands army roster, and vanilla GDI is more of a responsive peacekeeping force to maintain order and control.
Bearing this in mind, why not give the sandstorm to Zocom and give it a small blue splash damage effect so it can kill clustered aircraft more easily. I feel that you don't want to make each faction to OP as Steel Talons needs a weakness and Zocom's weakness was not having any artillery in KW.
Maybe you can make the cyborgs recruitable from an advanced barracks building that requires tier 2 or 3?
I more or less think the same about the Sandstrom,
ZOCOM does have artillery now although more limited (Pitbull can use its mortals as small artillery and the MARV's hub can train Zone juggernauts)
How the cyborgs relate to all of that though? o.O I did a poll about it before and people only wanted that the cyborg commando will come out of the shrine
i like the part where specific faction gets swapped weapons for the same pair of units.
maybe sandstorm could replace vGDI's juggernaut? it makes sense to me because of how changes in GDI's arsenal were justified. clunky and imprecise mass destruction monstrosity vs nimble and versatile MLRS which can do essentially the same thing, but also more.
also, i don't even know who has what at this point, so i dunno what to suggest.
I wanted to take a pic of the general changes, but was too lazy to do it ^^
For short:
GDI got two new support powers to call Kodiak and Field troopers (And bulldog and other random beta units which aren't trainable).
ST got different Orca with chain gun, Mastodon instead of MARV, Improved riflemans/hammers/behemoths with additional garrisons slot, Steel troopers, and new defense structure that nerf enemy's units and have ability to see enemy's vehicle on the map.
ZOCOM got Zone juggernaut, Zone RIG, Condor, and missile pod upgrade for predators.
Nod still under work but got Banshees.
BH got Improved stealth detector buggy, Subterranean Reckoner, Sniper commando, Anti air Venom, And Marcion statue that buff vehicles (and prototype flame tank which is not trainable).
MoK got Cyborg Commando, Hijacker, Cybernetic Engineer, Support power that deal damage and spawn Reapers, War Reckoner (allow inf to shot while packed) (Liquid tank which is not trainable).
Scrin still under work.
Reapers 17 Reaper ravenger, Reaper devourer tank (have bigger radius to cover their lack of artillery), and Overlord Fury which call for blue tib meteors.
Travelers 59 Assault Radier, Meddling buzzers (heal vehicles upon being combined) Travelers Shock troopers (have longer teleport range).
Aside from that ofc I've changed the balance of nearly everything in the game and fixed shitload of bugs, and also improved the AI on the way so things may look the same but won't act the same :P
And ofc there are bunch of other things I didn't mentioned.
Idea 1) To replace Slingshot with Sandstorm for ST
The slingshot is GDI, ZOCOM and Steel Talons. The Sandstorm would make the Steel Talons have a different anti-air vehicle. Plus It would be homage to the "Hover Multiple Launch Rocket System" which used by GDI in the Second Tiberium War in 2030. The technology back then was similiar to the technology that the Steel Talons used before the 3rd Tiberium War.
i would just keep the slingshot and give the sandstorm to steel talons, they need it since they lack AA units, zocom is in a good shape right now, but i feel steel talons maybe be lacking a unit or 2.
thank you for supporting this mod.
Np 👍
I kinda want the Sandstorm to be added to GDI, but I also like the idea of adding it to Steel Talons. Hmmm.
Dk if it fit GDI from both plot-wise and balance-wise perspective :o.
I'm in favor of the first one, that is replacing Slingshot with Sandstorm for Steel Talons. As Cabal/Legion suggested, every faction has got its own unique background and purpose or agenda. And the ST has been defined of somewhat experimental division or faction within the organization, thus Sandstorm would be quite fitting to the agenda.
please, add back sandstorm in replace of slingshots. it brings back the nostalgic GDI aura even without the disruptor and the orca bombers. I also think its much better that ST doesn't have sonic weapons to show that they focus on railgun tech while ZOCOM is in sonic tech