Anti Fan Idiocy Assosciation group

Actually, Cyrodiil was supposed to be a jungle mostly with some exotic creatures such as river dragons which didn't show up in game. And the IC was supposed to be bigger than Vivec city and take place across eight islands but it only covered barely one. We don't see indepth focus on the Nibenese or Colovians either. If Oblivion had all that, I'm sure that vanilla Oblivion would be even greater.
And I love change - I love going to different environments and I bought Skyrim mainly to experience the tundra. But Oblivion heavily modified is one of my favourite games of all time (along Morrowind of course!).

I've gotten sick of Morrowind. The completely lifeless AI makes the game too depressing to enjoy it any more. That's really the only thing holding me back from enjoying the game again.

And as far as Oblivion goes, please link me to where it is officially described in such a way that is completely different than how it turned out.

Imperial-library.info

The Pocket Guide described Cyrodiil as mostly endless jungle but now Bethesda claims that it was a mistake. Same was done to Skyrim - the maps show it as snow everywhere but in the game, it wasn't all snow (thankfully).

Morrowind is great but sometimes I just wish to go beyond Vvardenfell, you know. I want to see Wayrest in all its glory, for example.

I think they're working on a mod called "Tamriel Rebuilt" where they're going to include the rest of the continent. It might be abandoned though.

I can understand why they didn't go with the jungle direction, it really doesn't fit the Imperials at all. They seem very Roman-esque from their weapons, armor, and architecture. A jungle seems like an incredibly unfitting location. It would be like if the Nords were from Hammerfell, it just doesn't seem fitting at all. There's also a 465 year gap between the First and Third edition of the Pocket Guide to the Empire. With a rapidly expanding empire, I would not be surprised to see the geography change and for certain species to go extinct (like the river dragons you speak of) after over 400 years. I can imagine that a great deal of forest was cleared, and such significant changes to the geography don't sound surprising for the very heart of the Empire that has conquered every province in Tamriel.

I think jungle close to Elsweyr or Argonia would be fitting. Plus, the Province Cyrodiil mod will have a Pocket Guide Cyrodiil and in the sea, you can dive and find hidden treasures unlike Oblivion. Tamriel Rebuilt is not abandoned, far from it - in the start of next year, they will have released Almalexia which is supposed to be 3-4 times bigger than Vivec.

Province mods are always more successful in Morrowind (ongoing development to get mainland Morrowind, Cyrodiil, Skyrim, Elsweyr and Argonia) and it's just some steps closer to TES3: Tamriel.

In Morrowind, they mentioned Cyrodiil as being temperate still so there must have been a rapid change in a few years, which was caused by CHIM.
I like Oblivion still, despite the flaws, but if it had that culture and appeared as it was described in Morrowind then it would be much greater. The difference between Colovians and Nibenese were a bit too subtle IMO.

Where did they mention that in Morrowind? Was it in a piece of dialogue or a book?

The problem I have with the Oblivion haters is that they were so nitpicky and ignored all the improvements. It's way more fun than Morrowind, even if Morrowind does have improvements in several areas. But no, so many people ignored the fun features and started complaining because it wasn't as they expected. The perfect Elder Scrolls game, to me, would be a combination of everything good about Morrowind mixed with everything good about Oblivion.

It's too bad that the Tamriel Rebuilt Mod is only focusing on the Morrowind engine. I would really like to see some intense AI improvements.

It was part of dialogue with scouts in Morrowind. I would love to see TR in Oblivion too but it's virtually impossible to convert over Sacred East to Oblivion. The best bet is OpenMW for AI improvements. Stealing in Morrowind is laughably easy as everyone stays in the same spot. But in Oblivion, you get worried if that person will come upstairs and follow you until you leave.

Yeah, I agree with you. The story and depth of Morrowind coupled with Oblivion's improved mechanics would be great for TES 6 (with of course cast on use items as they were awesome in Morrowind). Skyrim tried to do that but fell face down flat with the not so good faction quests but the getting lost in the wasteland was still there. The DB had both Morrowind type contracts and Oblivion type central plot (which I loved) but the others didn't have that in Skyrim.

I don't think Morrowind had everything better in the story department. For example, the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood stories felt way better than the Thieves Guild and Morag Tong stories in the game.

I liked the Thieves Guild better in Morrowind as I loved the corruption storyline as opposed to the Gray Fox. The DB is better than the Morag Tong because I loved the contracts and central conflict while Morag Tong mainly sent you to kill bandits.

Of course, Skyrim's Thieves Guild is a complete joke. Hardly any stealing and it's more about "I got a grudge, I'm angry, let's punish our enemies!"
Tamriel Rebuilt has better quests than the vanilla Morrowind so there will be more good faction quests to come.

I think it's better in Oblivion because of that missing fun factor from Morrowind. Since stealing in Morrowind is extremely easy, but pickpocketing is stupidly hard, that's a bit of a problem for me. Again, this all seems to come down to the problems with the AI. I think that ruins everything in the game for me.

If Morrowind ever got a significant update in that category, I'd be willing to reevaluate my opinion that Oblivion is better. Right now though, Oblivion is just more fun for me. And that's what I think a game is supposed to be. I'd rather play a game where the whole game is fun to explore, rather than the few minutes I'd spend reading a book. xD

If Morrowind had these things:

Significantly improved NPC behavior (on the level of Oblivion or better)
Combat system fixed
Larger world
Quests are more fun and numerous
More replayability (bandits shouldn't always spawn with the same gear)
Voiced Dialogue
Improved Physics
Exploration more rewarding (For some reason, exploring in Morrowind just doesn't seem anywhere near as fun as Oblivion)

Then I would be perfectly willing to accept that it's better. But even then, I'd still consider Oblivion to be the best vanilla game. There's something about Oblivion where I just have a million times more fun than Skyrim or Morrowind. And this isn't a biased opinion; I've played a lot of Oblivion and Morrowind, but not much Skyrim.

Maybe they'll make another Elder Scrolls game that tops Morrowind, I'd rather have Fallout 4 though.

TR would make it a larger world and will quintuple the playing area. Fully voiced dialogue - not sure about that. Physics, combat and AI would be from OpenMW. LGNPC is trying to make quests far more numerous and rather interesting.

I had more fun with Morrowind and Oblivion (vanilla and heavily modified respectively) than Skyrim. Exploration was more rewarding in Morrowind as if you got lost, you could come back to town with three enchanted artifacts you never knew existed. I found a magical staff worth tens of thousands of gold when looking for that farmer for the first House Redoran quest. With Oblivion, only after installing UL and some retextures, I could finally feel the need to explore everything. I never got lost there either - only in Morrowind and Skyrim did I get lost and find things by accident. But obviously people can get lost in Ashlands or a tundra quite easily as opposed to a forest where you can see the Imperial City for miles. I may suggest Skywind which will check everything off the list except for the quests and larger playing area but it is in alpha stage and probably won't be completed until 2018 (without mainland Morrowind unfortunately).

I know what TR is planning, but I still don't believe that they will ever accomplish their goal completely.

I don't find the Morrowind exploration to be fun because it just seems..... boring. Walking down the road, there's a bandit cave, there's a tomb. Walk a little farther, pass a town, see a ruin. Repeat.

In Oblivion, you have the same "ruin, bandit cave, tomb" thing going on that you have in Morrowind, but the placement seems better and the locations seem to be more unique. For example, finding outdoor bandit camps and secret locations in the woods. I think the environment itself is more fun to explore. It seems that everything in Morrowind you can find after walking down the main road or a dirt path, with the exception of the (extremely depressing) Ashlands. In Oblivion, I like having to dig deep into a beautifully forested area to find something. Which is one of the reasons why I think Oblivion has absolutely destroyed Morrowind when it comes to atmosphere. There's just something about Oblivion to where I feel like I could spend a long time just walking around and interacting with the NPCs and the environment.

I don't really recall getting lost in Morrowind, with the exception of the Ashlands (which I hate, but explore for loot xD). The smaller map, location placement, abundant road signs, and memorable environments make it pretty easy for me to remember where I am (with the exception of the Ashlands, of course).

On a slightly unrelated note, I have to say that I also like the way the towns are structured in Oblivion over Morrowind. A loading screen seems like an acceptable price to pay for it.

I liked the open city thing in Morrowind. And the loot is generally better in Morrowind, though the challenge is greater in caves. Also, I see many failed adventurers in Morrowind caves and know that people have been here before me and failed. Oblivion dungeons look like I'm the first to loot the dungeon. For example, an adventurer called Indie died because he was crushed by some rocks. There are stories of failed adventurers which makes you stop and think about it. In Oblivion, I was rushing through each dungeon because I've seen it all before, I'm afraid. Morrowind and Skyrim dungeons are better as they don't all just look the same.

I like open cities as you can go anywhere without going the long way round. Yeah, I'm lazy in that regard. I was disappointed with the IC tremendously. It's supposed to be bigger than Vivec but it's much smaller. I like the taste of other provinces in Cyrodiil cities but that's around it. They could've been a lot bigger but layout wise, they're pretty good. Solitude in Skyrim is far too small IMO.

I've done a lot in Morrowind and I still have a long way to go before I complete it with all of TR and the province mods currently. Oblivion - played only for 40 hours on the current save (but much more overall) and I don't doubt that there is a lot to do left. It's just I prefer Morrowind's environments and cities overall but sometimes I just want to see greenery or swim in the sea near Anvil.

Also, this isn't a complaint about the game, but I think Morrowind's graphics really hold it back. Don't get me wrong, I usually don't care with graphics. I just can't get over how much the visuals of Oblivion have added to the atmosphere. I'm not obsessed with graphical quality either, Skyrim's superior visuals don't make the game better than Oblivion for me.

We're never going to agree on this, it's just fun to discuss this with someone without hearing "Pfft, you have **** taste in games if you prefer that garbage Oblivion over Morrowind (AKA - The Lord and Savior of Video Games)".

The open city thing isn't what bothered me, it's that most of the mainland towns were very small, and the AI issues made the rest of them feel just as plain. I've never been interested in "Gene Generic. Commoner."'s house, because he's just a reskin of every other non-quest related NPC in the game with a few items tossed into a random house that doesn't need to exist.

If you want to talk about it realistically, there shouldn't be any dungeons have haven't been looted by the time you get there. Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim take place hundreds of years after many heroes must have scoured the land. There's nothing automatically more special about your character, so there should have been a million more adventurers (and there are, but most of them are never seen doing anything) that have cleaned out every scrap of valuable items out of every dungeons. Thankfully, it isn't realistic.

I'm not sure why you're saying that Oblivion's dungeons feel unexplored though, you can find bones and skeletons all over the place in a bunch of locations. And I doubt that bandits would leave bodies lying around their fort. They probably kill and loot any adventurers immediately before disposing of their corpse, I'm assuming that's why most bandits have armor and weapons.

If you're going to be disappointed by the size of IC, you should realize the technical limitations. Most of the residents of Vivec are copy and paste NPCs, with the quarters of Vivec's exteriors being largely the same. Realistically, since Cyrodiil is the heart of the empire, the IC would have to be the size of the cities of Assassin's Creed, at the very least.

I have to say that I don't quite understand why people like the environments of Morrowind better. Sure, they had some interesting plant life and creatures. But so did Oblivion, and all the iconic scenery of Morrowind is usually static and cannot be interacted with (like those giant mushrooms).

Isn't the copy and pasted NPCs also in Oblivion? There are some NPCs who aren't part of any quest and remind me of another character in another city. Smaller cities arose from a smaller scale and there are plenty of larger towns on the mainland (such as Necrom which is eight cells big). I don't know - Vivec had large cantons already 3d modelled so it was just putting it together and using the same tilepieces in a copy and paste fashion as well. On map, the IC is bigger than Vivec so it should've been around 30 cells as opposed to just eight (without increasing the scale of the rest of Cyrodiil). Anvil felt like a town rather than a city. 4-8 cells seem to be a good strict guide that TR follows for cities and they really feel like cities. Port Telvannis is huge.

I can't interact with either plantlife. Trust me, I tried chopping the trees in both games and none of them came down (maybe in TES 6?).

But the failed adventurers leave journals behind and there is a story in some dungeons. You know why this unique axe is in this cave because you were told this by some Nord in Vivec. Artifacts can be found as well as earned via quests. There's no level requirement for Deadric quests either so if I want the Skeleton key in Oblivion, tough luck, I gotta power level like crazy just so I could start the Thieves Guild questline with an advantage. And somebody actually left behind loot in one tomb in order to trap a poor girl (once again with the stories).
I never had the story in any dungeon in Oblivion. It was just enter, loot the place and quickly get out. In Morrowind, I take my time and sometimes I stay in the dungeon overnight (and maybe cook some of the food that I found in their sacks and barrels). I don't even recall doing that in Oblivion or Skyrim. Maybe it's due to different roleplays or something?

Sure, dungeons are looted before I arrive but isn't it the case that once the first bandits are killed then another group moves in? And so on and so forth until the end of time? I don't know but I always feel that there were bandits before this group of bandits in this cave in Morrowind but in Oblivion, I feel that this is the first time that bandits were here. I don't know how to describe that feeling but that's just how I feel about it. Even if it may not be necessarily true.
And bandits have names in Morrowind. One of them is a sister to a known smuggler in Morrowind. One bandit can even train you in Enchant so in Morrowind, you have to be careful on who you kill. Also, more variety of dungeons are available. You have bone caves, lava caves, pyrock caves, mud caves, grottos, Daedric ruins, Dwemer ruins and Dunmer ruins. In Oblivion, only Ayleid ruins and caves exist with only one colour.

Didn't you just answer your own question? That's who has looted the location before you, if you choose to believe that (this is where roleplaying comes in, of course). It could have been old bandits, or old adventurers. It doesn't have to be the named body of a guy that the bandits are keeping around to satisfy their necrophilia fetish.
It doesn't seem to me like the bandit caves in Morrowind had previous residents, since the caves are very clean, usually organized, and set up for the specific amount of people you'll find there.
Yes, the bandits are named in Morrowind, but outside of a few very specific quests; it's very irrelevant. There's no information whatsoever on the guy who ran at me with an iron dagger and was quickly cut down, so it doesn't force me to think about them any more than the unnamed bandits in the other games. Besides, how would I know their names anyways?
Oblivion has outdoor camps, forts, bandit caves, tombs, Ayleid Ruins, and even a couple houses in the forest. There's also caves that lead to other ruins. I'd say it's at least comparable to Morrowind.

Forgive me if my comments seem all over the place or poorly worded, I haven't had much sleep last night and have been up for hours; and I get tired of reading walls of text.

No worries ;)

It's just many designers have worked on dungeons in Morrowind and Skyrim but only one person did the Oblivion dungeons so it does feel copy and pasted all the time. I feel the houses in the IC are all the same as well (don't get me wrong - Morrowind and Skyrim had that too). Vivec feels grand to me but the IC doesn't for some reason. I knew that it was supposed to be based on a Roman city but actually going inside felt a bit anticlimactic.

True, Morrowind's flora never moves but Oblivion's flora does. Funnily enough, Skyrim's trees are pretty static too. The trees moving was an advantage in Oblivion but only because they are Speedtree models and not NIF files.

True, NPCs are all walking encyclopaedias in the vanilla game. And I do get mostly unique greetings in Oblivion and Skyrim. Speaking of which, I did go to a savant and ask about Cyrodiil and I was told it is mostly endless jungle. Though most other facts are correctly done in Oblivion - no river dragons or exotic clothing exists though.
But past the "I'm a farmer who worked here for ten years", there is nothing else to say. At least LGNPC has given NPCs a unique identity but I doubt that Oblivion and Skyrim would have more detailed NPCs than LGNPC.
Speaking of which, I love Oblivion's fame and infamy system. In Skyrim, you could be a serial killer and everyone would just treat you just as they would if you first came off the cart. Player consequences exist in Oblivion (I'm not so sure in Morrowind) but Skyrim is devoid of them.

Yes, Oblivion does have copy and pasted NPCs as well. But in Morrowind, it is a very literal usage of "copy and pasting". Every NPC I encounter is a reskin of the same Commoner who is willing to talk to you about everything you could possibly ask them, and they will all reply to you with the exact same dialogue. No individuality. While that does happen in Oblivion, I feel that it's not as commonplace and there is a bit more diversity in characters.
The physical size of the city doesn't matter much to me. When it comes to Vivec, it is like eating a giant cake that has no flavor. It's large, yes, but there doesn't seem to be any reason for me to want to get to know and interact with the residents. This is what a role playing game should be all about.
I didn't mean to say you could interact with it more in Oblivion (it's about the same as in Morrowind), but the "unique" plant life there almost seems like it's a giant piece of Styrofoam instead of a living plant. In Oblivion I find it more the believable that the nature around me is alive.
I don't know why it would just so happen that your run-of-the-mill adventurer is an interesting person who keeps a journal and happens to have died when you have arrived there, but that is an added bonus.
While I've played Morrowind recently, but haven't played Oblivion for awhile, I do remember that there were dungeons in Oblivion that had their own stories. I could be wrong of course, but I don't remember that being exclusive to Morrowind; even if it was more commonplace.
It's funny that you should say how eager you are to quickly loot an Oblivion dungeon, because that's how I feel about Morrowind. The bandits stand around, run at me, get killed, I take their stuff (maybe make a few trips), and leave. If it's just a bandit cave, I rarely find any reason to stay long.