"Space - the final frontier..." image - Star Trek: Armada 3 mod for Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion

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Memory Beta - Memory-beta.wikia.com

Also it's Ti-Ho. I appear to have made a typing error. Now rectified.

It was partially in thanks for Kirk & co. saving Earth. Also, the Enterprise was a legendary starship - maybe they thought resurrecting her would be good for morale?

I mean, the Enterprise wasn't completely obsolete. She still had some life in her. Under Kirk, she was obviously considered a match for Gorkon's Kronos One, else they wouldn't have sent her. Nor would CinC say: "But they'll think twice about attacking the Enterprise under your command." Part of the reason why I argue there were a few Connies still around in the TNG era. If she wasn't considered obsolete in 2293, then she probably wasn't unusable in the later eras. This would be argued by saying that there are few, if any, examples of ships from the late TMP era NOT surviving at least til the early TNG era.

I'd say it lasted into the first half of the 24th Century, but certainly not after the Ambassador started making its appearance. It was being phased out in the 2290s, after all.

I personally don't accept that a Connie was present at Wolf 359, and certainly not more than one. Yes, various pieces of the Connie TMP model were used as debris in the scene where the Enterprise arrived at the battle site, but it was never intended to be anything more than generic rubble.

It also makes no sense from a lore standpoint. Yes Starfleet can stretch the useful life of a ship but the Miranda is 40 years younger than the Connie and is on the verge of being decommissioned. Even in an emergency a 122 year old (as of 2367) ship would not be called upon to do battle. The fact that it's also later confirmed that the only remaining Connies are literally museum pieces at that point just makes the claim that a Constitution-class starship was both functional and battle-ready enough to be brought to bear against the Borg even more unlikely in my eyes.

I understand that the Connie had a very limited production run too, due to their expense. I've seen it suggested that only 12 were produced.

Initially there were twelve, yes. A few more were built over the years, but they were never great in number. I'd say less than 20 in total.

That doesn't prove one was at Wolf 359.

- Planes placed in boneyards aren't kept around for almost a century. If America was under attack do you think they'd waste time and money getting P-51 Mustangs ready for battle? The Connie was well over a century old by the time Wolf 359 happened.

- The time and effort necessary to get one into a shipyard, refitted, crewed and equipped for battle would far outweigh any benefit the ship would bring. Think of it - historically, steam-powered ironclad warships started appearing in the 1860s. 120 years later we had nuclear-powered ships the size of small cities.

- Throwing what is essentially a relic into battle against a technologically superior foe would amount to nothing more than a waste of lives, like a cavalry charge against a tank brigade. That's not how Starfleet does things.

- In 'Relics' when Scotty asks Picard if he's familiar with the Constitution-class Picard simply responds that there's one in the fleet museum. In all of TNG, DS9 and VOY no mention is ever made of the Connie still being in service. And the implication at the conclusion of The Undiscovered Country - that the ship's time is nearly over - is practically screamed at the audience.

I can't accept that Starfleet kept the Connie around 'just in case'. There comes a time when every machine simply needs to be retired. I get the love for the Connie but it has its place and it had it's time.

> The Connie was well over a century old by the time Wolf 359 happened

Her timeclock was reset when she was refit. Per Ex Astris' findings, "not much could have been left of the original ship". Refit, she was in practice not much older than the Miranda and the Excelsior.

> The time and effort necessary to get one into a shipyard, refitted, crewed and equipped for battle would far outweigh any benefit the ship would bring.

UNLESS, her design were so tried and true that she were trusted well beyond what a normal design would. There is precedent in real history for such a thing, for example, the B-52 (entered service in 1955), the A-10 (launched 1977), or the recommissioning of the USS Iowa (launched 1942, decommissioned 1958, recommissioned in 1984, served until 1990).

> Throwing what is essentially a relic into battle against a technologically superior foe would amount to nothing more than a waste of lives, like a cavalry charge against a tank brigade. That's not how Starfleet does things.

UNLESS, of course, they're in dire straits. Which they were at Wolf 359. They needed every ship available, even if it wasn't exactly combat-worthy. I mean, at Sector 001, they had Oberths, and we know those can't take much of a pounding (if STIII is any indication). If an Oberth can be sent into battle, a Connie certainly would be. In STIII, Kruge says the Enterprise "outguns me 10-to-1" (and she survived a direct torpedo hit, even when crippled and operated by a skeleton crew), whereas the Grissom got destroyed in one hit (and even prepared probably wouldn't have been able to take much more than a few hits).

> In 'Relics' when Scotty asks Picard if he's familiar with the Constitution-class Picard simply responds that there's one in the fleet museum. In all of TNG, DS9 and VOY no mention is ever made of the Connie still being in service. And the implication at the conclusion of The Undiscovered Country - that the ship's time is nearly over - is practically screamed at the audience.

The first part assumes a lot though. Picard could have been referring to an unrefitted Constitution (which would make more sense in context, since they're standing on the bridge of a 2260s recreation of the Enterprise). Since several Enterprise-D crewmembers are shown to be familiar with operating late TMP era consoles (for example, TNG "Peak Performance" or TMP "Relics"), I think it's safe to say that ships like this are not entirely obsolete, and are either old workhorses or in mothballs. Which would line up with our assumption that the Connie was still around in the mid 2360s, but was reaching the absolute end of life, and since there weren't many to begin with, it makes sense that we don't see many of them (which leads into the next part).

The second part "In all of TNG, DS9..." -- that we know of! There is nothing that says they don't exist, and a decent amount of evidence to suggest that they do. Wolf 359 wreckage, the model displayed at Utopia Planitia, the continued use of pretty much every other ship from the TMP era, including ships like the "underpowered, overworked" Constellation, which seem to fill a similar fleet role in canon, and may have been a stop-gap design to bolster the fleet while not having to expend the resources on a lavish, elite Connie.

...ctd in part II

The third part is also on shaky ground because Kirk says "This ship and her history will shortly become the care of another crew. To them and their posterity will we commit our future. They will continue the voyages we have begun and journey to all the undiscovered countries..." -- that could literally mean anything. Is the Enterprise going to simply be cast aside? Put in mothballs? Or is she going to be decommissioned and recommissioned as another ship? The last option would make sense to me, considering the Enterprise B was to be launched in the same year. I find it unlikely that Starfleet would simply throw away a ship that literally saved the Federation and Klingon Empire, was considered at least powerful and impressive enough to host (and perhaps intimidate) the Chancellor of the High Council, and was fully capable of holding her own against an experimental Bird of Prey that held a significant tactical advantage during the battle. Visually, she was not at all obsolete from what we saw, her viewscreens, panels, halls, and bridge were similar to the Excelsior and Ent-B in many respects.

> I can't accept that Starfleet kept the Connie around 'just in case'. There comes a time when every machine simply needs to be retired. I get the love for the Connie but it has its place and it had it's time

And you're right. But in my analysis, I see the Connie only being retired for good by the time Starfleet began militarizing in the wake of encounters with the Borg, the resurgent Romulans, the Klingon Civil War, and the resurgent Cardassians c. 2367. The new wave of starships we see at Sector 001 superseded a majority of the hodge-podge of older ships -- in essence, Starfleet designated only the most numerous and tested older designs as fleet worthy, the rest were thrown into mothballs, to lessen the expense of a hugely diverse fleet with non-interchangeable parts during wartime.

Everyone in Europe.

Even a decent amount of Americans know how drive a stickshift. It was just a bad statement lol.

I've been waiting for you, Ambarenya...

With Max and Bane it's the Galaxy vs the Nebula. With us it's the Constitution-class. We could debate this til the trumpet sounds and the horsemen ride and still not convince each other, my friend. :D

The simple truth is that I feel there is plenty of on-screen direct evidence for the Consitution having been long decommissioned and mothballed, while the only on-screen evidence you have is what was intended to be generic background debris at the Wolf 359 battle site. Which, I might add, if you're willing to take as ironclad proof of the Connie's continued service, then you need to also accept that the Millenium Falcon took part in the Battle of Sector 001, as it literally flew right past the camera in the battle scene.

Also, while the comparison with stickshift wasn't the best example, the overall point my anonymous ally makes is valid. The Constitution was 40 years old by the time the Miranda and Constellation started appearing, and nearly 50 years old by the time the Excelsior was fully commissioned. I don't accept that a refit 'resets her timeclock'. A refit Connie is just that - a refit of an already old ship, extending her service life, whereas the Miranda and Constellation were at the time completely new ships from the ground up.

And getting an old Connie outfitted for battle would have taken a great deal of time and effort and Starfleet literally only had a couple of days to gather a fleet to fight the Borg. Also, Starfleet didn't really KNOW they were in dire straits - they knew the Borg were powerful but still thought they could win. The utter completeness of their defeat at Wolf 359 was a total shock.

The presence of Oberths at Sector 001 means nothing, too. The main fleet engaged the Borg at the Typhon Sector. When the Borg broke through and headed for Earth, every ship available was gathered at Earth in the last line of defence. The Battle of Sector 001 was a Last Stand.

And the presence of old control panels, etc. proves nothing. These old controls were still widely present on Miranda, Excelsior and even Ambassador-class ships. Many Starfleet personnel would have had experience with them. Gaming.trekcore.com Also, I think you'll find that the set designers of The Undiscovered Country went to efforts to make the Enterprise bridge look significantly less advanced than the Excelsior's - the Enterprise bridge still used physical buttons, slides and dials, while the Excelsior used newer touch screen controls, not unlike those found on later starships.

I'd also like to point out that the continued use of ships like the Miranda does not automatically mean that the Constitution is still hauling *** and smoking grass across the galaxy.

Decommissioning a ship isn't the same as simply throwing it away. A ship can be retired and still revered.

In the end I think we both have good arguments, but neither of us can be proven right at this point without more evidence. And more wine. To the bar!

Ssshhh!

Are you trying to start a rumble!?

Pretty much. Just unzip the mod folders into the right place, make sure LAA is applied and away you go.

No, you can keep CTA. Just keep them in separate folded as though they were entirely different mods, and switch between them using your EnabledMods.txt file.

Sure thing.

Well, this mod (as well as a few others) are actually too big to activate/deactiveate from the in-game Mods menu. This is handled by changing the text in a .txt file in your Sins 1.85 Mods folder called EnabledMods.txt.

If you have the mod installed, it can probably be found here:

C:\Users\...\Documents\My Games\Ironclad Games\Sins of a Solar Empire Rebellion\Mods-Rebellion v1.85

Open the EnabledMods.txt. It should open in Notepad. You should see the following text.

TXT
Version 0
enabledModNameCount 1
enabledModName "star-trek-armada-3-1.3"

The line that says enabledModName shows which mod is currently active. To switch mods, replace the mod name with the precise folder name of the mod you want to play. For example, if you're going by default settings, to switch from Armada 3 to, say, the excellent Thrawn's Revenge 2: Ascendancy mod, you would change the enableModName from "star-trek-armada-3-1.3" to "Ascendancy-V1F".

Also, make sure to leave a line underneath the text blank.

Save and exit and the next time you start up Sins, the mod of your choice should automatically start.

To disable mods entirely, change the enabledModNameCount from 1 to 0. That will take you back to stock Sins. Change it back from 0 to 1 to reactivate mods.

I hope that explains things, but never hesitate to ask for help. That's what we're here for. ;)