All of the thanks to goes to Carnius for a great mod, I am thankful that you are kind enough to make this for me and the rest of the CNC community, without caring about any kind of pay or reimbersment. I and, I believe the rest of the CNC community really just want to say, THANKS CARNIUS! and thank you for coming to TEF.

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Unique Harvesters Project (Groups : Tiberium Essence Fans : Forum : General Tiberium Essence Ideas : Unique Harvesters Project) Locked
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Smallchange
Smallchange GDI, 101st Airborn Division, Firehawk Pilot
Nov 18 2012, 11:32pm Anchor

Ok, First off, prepare for a very - very - very long post. I may delete this if I don't like how it turns out.

M0nkfish wrote:A lot has been said about the little gun on the GDI harvester being woefully inadequate in pretty much all respects, perhaps this could be remedied in a number of ways. I submit the following ideas and invite your own...

1) After the Tech Lab is built have the Harvester upgradable in a similar way to the NOD Avatar allowing 1 of the 3 main types of base defense to be retro-fitted in place of the little machine gun - in the style of TS component towers. This would give a choice of Anti-aircraft Guns, Anti-infantry Vulcan-cannon, or Anti-Vehicle Grenades. Any Base Defense Upgrades would apply here too if possible. Cost 800 per upgrade, 1 per Harvester.

2) After the Tech Lab is built allow an EMP upgrade purchasable at the refinery which upgrades all existing and future Harvesters with a small EMP Projector allowing the Harvester to project a small radius EMP burst at enemy vehicles while remaining fully functional (possibly to make an escape). This upgrade is in addition to the little machine-gun. Cost 2500

3) After the Tech Lab is built Allow a Heavy Armour upgrade purchasable at the refinery which gives all existing and future Harvesters with 66% more armour.
This upgrade is in addition to the little machine-gun. Cost 2000

Oaks wrote:Yes, the each faction harvester uniqeness and usefulness.
Nod one has stealth.But the Scrin one has,to the certain degree, lost its uniqeness.Now all ground Scrin units are being repaired by all sources of tiberium radiation.GDI ones stamina and armor is, I think, already pretty sturdy,and its usefullnes with its machinegun is great.So I say we can:
1.)Increase its combat efforts: by providing it with that MKII bullets for Wolwerine (or however it is called) upgrade too,that could also change its machinegun to a twin-barreled machinegun,provided with +50% attack damage increase,attack rate increase,weapon remodel.Or maybe a new upgrade that changes machinegun into more potent grenade launcher with clear garrison ability.

2:)Increase its harvesting efforts: by creating some upgrade that increase the number of tiberium the GDI harvester can store. yeah,some "Storeroom enlargement" upgrade xd The upgrade could apply for GDI silos,or even refineries too.Provided with "storeroom chamber" remodel upon harvester trunk,silo and refinery.

So that could generally mean,I am into something like "component tower upgrade" or "another idea".

.Mac. wrote:This will be a long post, sorry, but it's needed to explain...

I thought the GDI harvesters with mini MG and Nod harvesters with stealth were enough for unique abilities, and only thought Scrin could use a little more, but I do like the idea of component-styled weapons on GDI's harvesters.

I don't think any harvester should have clear structures ability, it'd be too OP. Especially since they automatically roam around between the base and tiberium, without needing your direct control.

Regarding the EMP, GDI will already have enough counter-measures, and with Nod I feel this will take out the usefulness of Buggies in late game. As for Scrin, I would say this particular EMP isn't fitting for them (because it seems more of a human weapon than alien), but, what if instead Scrin's harvesters shot out green "tiberium sludge" at units (same concept as the "Spitter" dinosaur from Jurassic Park) that would work very similarly to an EMP weapon that either temporarily slows or disables the vehicle (Scrin's version of EMP basically) but also harms/kills infantry. To be fair, this should definitely have a cool down, but maybe this should also have a cost - that cost could be some of the tiberium it harvested inside of it, so if it doesn't have tibeirum in it, then it can't use the ability (similar to the Devourer Tank's ability with the conversion beam)

Back to GDI's component weapons, I can definitely see the their harvesters being pre-equipped with the standard mini MG, as we know it, but when we select the harvester, we have 2 other options to buy that'd replace the current MG, as M0nfish originally suggested, but not needing the Tech Center as a prerequisite (the Barracks or Command Center, if any structure). Either: a mini launcher/turret that's good vs vehicles, or a mini anti-air turret. The player will upgrade according to what they feel will be needed more, but the upgrade is irreversible and must have a cost (maybe $200-$500). Or, if it'd be easier and better this way, make the GDI harvester come without any pre-built weaponry (possibly make it slightly cheaper also) by taking off the mini MG, but have that as an upgrade in addition to the other two mini weaponry.

I don't think it'd be necessary to have an upgrade that'd beef up the MG, or for that matter, any of the other guns it might have; if more firepower is needed for defending harvester(s), escort and defend it with the proper units :) However, I could still see it being useful for later game, so I'm not completely against it; it definitely should not be a significant boost/upgrade though. If yes to weapons upgrade, then of course the Nod and Scrin harvesters will need some sort of "boost" so that things stay balanced, which leads into my next idea.

Similar to the armor upgrade that you suggested M0nkfish, here's an idea that I put on another page before: "Refineries: an upgrade that'd affect harvesters, such as X % faster speed (Nod or Scrin), X % more armor (GDI), X % faster harvesting (Scrin or Nod)". If GDI harvesters are to get a boost in firepower, then I think it'd be best just to have one upgrade at the refinery that will add X% more damage to each of the three possible weapons. With these sorts up boosts/upgrades, for sure the Radar should be the prerequisite, but maybe the Tech Center?

After all that, here's what I am interested in:

For GDI, I would like to see M0nkfish's idea of 3 possible component-type weapons (but in the way I just described) as the standard defense ability for the harvesters, and later with an armor boost and/or weapon FP boost from the refinery.

For Scrin, I would like to see Oak's idea that was discussed here Moddb.com with tiberium radiation being "oozed" from Scrin's harvesters and refineries as their standard defense (and healing) ability, and later with a harvesting speed boost, and/or boost in the amount of tiberium it can carry, and/or tiberium sludge projectile (Scrin's version of EMP) ability from the refinery (these boosts seem natural to me, since it's native to tiberium).

For Nod, I would like to keep stealth as its standard defense ability, and later a vehicle speed boost and/or armor boost and/or harvesting speed boost from the refinery.

I am also really in favor of the idea of a cheap upgrade at GDI's and/or Nod's refineries (or at Silos, so more people are apt to build these) that'd increase the tiberium capacity of something(s). I've suggested this elsewhere too. And yes, a new model of some sort should show the upgrade (as with any upgrade I think 8) ).

If you made it through the reading, what do you guys think? :D


____________________________________________________________

M0nkfish wrote:It's been claimed that the Scrin Harvester's auto-repair ability is less vital now that all scrin units are healed by tiberium radiation, i propose repacing the auto-repair with a short range blink pack allowing it to teleport SHORT distances to either avoid danger or reach fields faster. Is this a good idea?

.Mac. wrote:I think this is an interesting idea. I do think Scrin's harvester is just fine the way it is (in terms of abilities), or at least allow it to gather tiberium a little bit more quickly than the other harvesters, since it is native to tiberium... but I actually wouldn't mind this. I agree, if it did have this, it should work like the Blink Packs, with cool down and all so it wouldn't be OP. In case someone thinks of the idea, no, I don't think I'd want it to automatically teleport back to refinery when done harvesting ;)

GoldenArbiter wrote:Hmmm... Why would you replace the auto heal? I would rather have that than the teleport.

Something I think would go well with the harvesters, (something from KW) would be if they die while they have a full load of tib, they cause an ion storm.

Oaks wrote:You mean doing from Scrin Harvester something like the Allied Chrono-Harvester from RA2? 'Cause we probably cant expect Dune carryalls.
Or you mean Scrin Harvesters should have active ability like "Blink", Shocktroopers,Stalwarts and Assimilators have?
Maybe I would instead increase the heal rate of harvester,harvesting speed or storage hold.I would also provide Scrin harvester and refinery with a tiberium radiation upgrade.
(seems quite logical to me,the tiberium radiation oozes from it, so it also heals itself and repairs Scrin units around it and damages human infantry,so the Harvester and refinery are able to "defend" themselves, even if harvester is not actually on field)
I like every idea of faction harvesters differentiation and uniqeness.

.Mac. wrote:
Oaks wrote:You mean doing from Scrin Harvester something like the Allied Chrono-Harvester from RA2? 'Cause we probably cant expect Dune carryalls.
Or you mean Scrin Harvesters should have active ability like "Blink", Shocktroopers,Stalwarts and Assimilators have?
Maybe I would instead increase the heal rate of harvester,harvesting speed or storage hold.I would also provide Scrin harvester and refinery with a tiberium radiation upgrade.
(seems quite logical to me,the tiberium radiation oozes from it, so it also heals itself and repairs Scrin units around it and damages human infantry,so the Harvester and refinery are able to "defend" themselves, even if harvester is not actually on field)
I like every idea of faction harvesters differentiation and uniqeness.

We were thinking the "Blink" ability like on the Shocktroopers, etc, or something similar to that style of teleportation; mainly as a way to seek safety or to access tiberium that's over a ridge or channel of water, as M0nkfish has stated.

While I still like and think all of the suggestions from the others are good ideas, I think you hit the nail on the head with your ideas! I think that makes complete sense that there would be an upgrade that'd cause the refineries and harvesters to "ooze" harmful tiberium radiation to the enemy as a defense (but healing to your own units), kinda like with the powerplant upgrade. After all, these do contain tiberium XD With this, I think it'd be better to have one upgrade at a refinery that does this for the harvesters and refineries. Or were you thinking that these would be pre-equipped at the start of the game with this defense? Those other ones you mention (increase the heal rate of harvester, harvesting speed or storage hold) all make sense too and either one would work great (like I said before, the Scrin harvester is native to tiberium, so having an advantage along these lines is logical). We'd have to pick one, though, and so I'd go for the "tiberium ooze" as defense. I hope Carnius might be able to try out these ideas sometime and decide for himself which would be better :)

Ok, so let's see how this turns out....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now then, Let's lay that out for those of you who don't have an hour to read it all XD

GDI Harvester Ideas:

  1. Similar to the component towers of TS, which allows it to (after the tech center is built) have an AP, AT, 'or' AA upgrade for a (per harvester) fee.
  2. EMP, similar to the raider buggies ability, but not shutting down the harvester... Upgrade after tech center as well. (One time fee)
  3. Extreme Armor upgrade (+66%) which can be researched at the refinery (after tech center) (One time fee) (Does all current and future harvesters for the one cost)
  4. Grenade launcher upgrade (changes minigun out for grenade launcher, with clear garrison ability)
  5. AP Ammo Upgrade
  6. Harvester (and possibly refinery and silo too) storage increase.

Nod Harvester Ideas:

  1. Avatar core engine upgrade thing (whatever it is that gives bonus speed)

Scrin Harvesters Ideas:

  1. Tiberium Radiation being leaked (or oozed) from the harvester harming nearby human infantry and healing scrin units (including the harvester)
  2. Speed Boost Upgrade
  3. Storage amount (harvester only) upgrade
  4. Tiberium Sludge Bomb Upgrade (allowing for an EMP like effect that might cause Damage over time to human units)

So, there's the basic concepts...

Edited by: Smallchange

Nov 19 2012, 7:29am Anchor

From the above harvester ideas i'd like to see the following:

GDI
Component Tower allowing base defenses (AP, AT or AA) to be applied to the Harvester in place of the MG, upgrades in a similar way to NOD Avatar.

NOD
Tiberium Power Packs to apply to Harvester (gives health and speed boost)

Scrin
Tiberium Radiation Ooze heals Harvester and nearby scrin whist harming any human infantry that get close. Constant effect

Tiberium Sludge Projectile this thick toxic sludge has moderate range sticking to vehicles making them immobile (as EMP). When fired on infantry, projectile causes tiberium sickness type damage (as if marching over a tiberium field) for a set period of time. Firing projectile reduces amount of tiberium stored in Harvester (as Devourer Tank). Balanced cool-down time, maybe moderate to long.

Nov 19 2012, 10:18am Anchor

I want to thank Smallchange for a such precise and hard work.We've put him through a one hell of a confusive disscusion after all.(mainly me xd)

Then, I agree with M0nkfish having those upgrades. As I believe all harvesters deserves being unique in a way of their faction doctrine.
Although those upgrades dont need to be named exactly "Ooze Radiation", etc. xd

GDI-I wanna know if MG would still be preplaced.I dont want to start with harvester that has nothing "unique" to begin with.I dont think its primary weapon that differentiates him should require upgrade(credits and possible requirement)
What requirements would be there for those new weapons.What would be those new weapons.I think there should be only 2 weapons,because if MG will stay preplaced,then harvester already has anti-infantry weapon.
Theoretically, harvester new weapon upgrades could be similiar to GDI defense structures,or units and maybe existing upgrades could apply for them.(rail gun for AA harvester weapon,similiar to GDI AA defense. Anti-vehicle harvester weapon-similiar to GDI RPG tower defense and falcon,with their Shockwave grenades.And Subcaliber rounds for MG)
I agree upgrades should be irreversible.Will need a special attention on upgrades prices.

NOD- agree with speed movement upgrade,but with a health or armor increasing only to a certain degree.(I think NOD one,or harvesters generally should have probably only minor health differences if at all.
What requirement upgrade needs? Price should be considerate.

Scrin - Ooze should be costly as it heals harvester constantly and permanently.Probably higher tier requirement.

I disagree with Sludge Projectile. Scrin harvester through upgrade gained advantage and is able to defend himself againts infantry.But it cant gain a weapon,it has be different from GDI one.

.Mac. is on the move :D

Nov 19 2012, 4:23pm Anchor

Right, Carnius can always name these upgrades to what he feels is right. For now we're using these terms like "ooze" because we understand and can visualize what that means :D

Personally, I really believe it should be just one weapon mounted on top of GDI's harvester at a time. Either anti-infantry, anti-tank, or anti-air. Since it is only a harvester and not an assault vehicle, it'd be too much and not right for balance to have a combination of any 2 of those. So you're deciding what you feel you will need most at the time when it's out in the field, kinda like with upgrading the Avatar. Plus, it's possible you'll have more than one harvester out there, so give each one a different weapon. If you need more to defend it, you should make use of other units and send those out to help, or bring it back to base. If it were possible, I'd be fine if the weapon upgrades weren't permanent; so if you wanted you could later swap for a different weapon if you change your mind and need something else more (but to be fair, it should require time to make the swap and maybe even a small cost).

I can agree with Scrin's harvester not needing the sludge projectile, especially if it were to have tiberium radiation around it. I just thought it was a neat concept to see sludge as a weapon that Scrin could use, besides just a ground texture. So, perhaps another Scrin unit could use this if it needs something more or different for its weapons/abilities. If not, it's okay :)

Oaks wrote:.Mac. is on the move :D

Lol, yeah lately I've had time to get "a few" ideas out :D

Edited by: .Mac.

GoldenArbiter
GoldenArbiter Proud servant of Kane
Nov 19 2012, 6:43pm Anchor

I know what I want done with the Nod harv... I want it to work on lag heavy maps. That's it. Stealth harvesters are already borderline OP.
As for scrin, maybe give it the storage upgrade, but other than that, it heals in tiberium.... nothing wrong with it at all, and the larger storage might be a slight impediment as well in early game, so maybe have it as a permanent thing from the beginning, to make scrin slightly different play style wise?
The GDI one should just get a bigger gun or something... cause right now it;s useless.

--

"Before enlightenment: Chop wood, fetch water. After enlightenment: Chop wood, fetch water." -zen proverb

Smallchange
Smallchange GDI, 101st Airborn Division, Firehawk Pilot
Nov 19 2012, 8:26pm Anchor
GoldenArbiter wrote:I know what I want done with the Nod harv... I want it to work on lag heavy maps. That's it.

This, yes, this...

Nov 19 2012, 11:00pm Anchor
M0nkfish wrote:From the above harvester ideas i'd like to see the following:

GDI
Component Tower allowing base defenses (AP, AT or AA) to be applied to the Harvester in place of the MG, upgrades in a similar way to NOD Avatar.

NOD
Tiberium Power Packs to apply to Harvester (gives health and speed boost)

Scrin
Tiberium Radiation Ooze heals Harvester and nearby scrin whist harming any human infantry that get close. Constant effect

Tiberium Sludge Projectile this thick toxic sludge has moderate range sticking to vehicles making them immobile (as EMP). When fired on infantry, projectile causes tiberium sickness type damage (as if marching over a tiberium field) for a set period of time. Firing projectile reduces amount of tiberium stored in Harvester (as Devourer Tank). Balanced cool-down time, maybe moderate to long.


I don't know how I missed this earlier... but this all looks great to me for the harvesters M0nkfish! You added more detail to the Tiberium Sludge idea too, it looks official, now I really would like to see it in action 8) I wonder if people would miss the Conversion Beam (I don't think it's that special) on the Devourer Tank, if the Tiberium Sludge Projectile became its special ability instead?

You're right GoldenArbiter, that is something that needs to be fixed for Nod's harvesters.

Edited by: .Mac.

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