Airforce in 1.4. Considerations and suggestions. Thread - Tiberium Essence Fans

Greetings.

Since I've suffered from serious connection problems in these days, I've played several skirmish games. I've choosed some large maps (for 5/6 players) so a good base expansion can be made.

In this analysis I will try to consider the 1.5 upgrades and new units.

Maybe is just me (I need more "training") but I think GDI and Scrin have awesome air units while the Brotherood has good ones, I try to explain why.

Let's consider the GDI:

Jumpjet trooper. For only 700 credits this unit is fast, versatile, quite resistant (especially with energy pack upgrade) and his firepower is impressive. Not only can take care abput enemy infantry and light vehicles, but can be impressive against Scrin capital ships (in particular against planetary aircraft carriers, try to believe), and other aircrafts too. Maybe is him too strong? Vote: 10/10.

Orca fighter. As interceptor it works very well. It's very good against enemy vehicles, it's quite fast and the price is fair. As scout units is excellent in my opinion. Vote 9/10 (because the machine gun upgrade, I will explain it).

Firehawk. One of the best C&C3 units in terms of desing and role. Awesome against air units. (can take out the most heavy unit without too many problems), works for every penny spent. Fast, durable and powerful. Stratofighter upgrade makes it very dangerous as precision striker, its bombs are useless against moving targets but they are intentional. Vote: 10/10.

Orca bomber. amazing as carpet bomber, awesome damage, EMP bombs are the cherry in the cake, very clever and useful. Maybe standard bombs should deal more splash damage and the overall price should be a bit higher. Vote: 8,5/10 (for the same reason of the machine gun upgrade).

Now the bad point: the machine gun upgrade. I'm asking why is needed if the role of anti infantry/anti air is fully covered by jumpjet trooper and firehawk. It steals the role of the other units and a mass of orca fighters/bombers can replace jumpjet/firehawks. I think this is not fair. Maybe the ceramic armour upgrade and/or hardpoints can solve the problem, especially for firehawk (so can use more missiles against capital ships).

Let's talk about the Scrin.

Stormrider. Very good standard air unit. Very annoying against light ground units and infantry, just ok against air units. It's upgrade works well. It should be more effective against air units. Vote: 9/10.

Devastator warship. As flying artillery units it's simply perfect. Powerful, resistant. The force field upgrade is awesome for this unit. For the rest is fairly slow and can be countered by every sort of AA unit. Vote: 10/10.

Planetary assault carrier. This unit can eliminate everything. Ion storm upgrade makes it excellent as suppot ship and the entire Scrin fleets benefits from it. Its range is amazing and can take out every threat from a safe distance. Forcefield upgrade make it even more durable, maybe its aircraft shouldn't be that effective against air targets. Vote: 9/10.

Planetary killer and assault motherships. Scrin is supposed to be the "invader" side, so their air units are the symbol of this supremacy. Planetary killer is fairly slow, strong and devastaing. Deserves the maximum vote. Assault mothership is a very interesting new. Cool desing, good firepower againts ground targets. Maybe the stormrider should benefit from Tiberium enhancement upgrade.

In conclusion, some minor adjustments are required, considered that in 1.5 there will be Afterburner and Microwave pulse that may be incredibly effective against capital ship (one increases the speed, the other reduces the enemy speed) maybe the Traveler engines can be useful in order to an overall balance.

Now let's talk about Nod.

Venom. This unit has one of the best desings in C&C3, it has light armour, it's fairly fast, very good against infantry and light targets, laser capacitor makes it more useful against enemy air units (wasn't better the particle beam upgrade and leave the laser capacitor to improve the laser turret?), but it suffers against mass of aircraft carriers and orca with machine gun upgrades. The signature generator not only is ugly (it seems a bubo), but I'm asking if is really useful. For a 900 cost unit, this ultra cheap upgrade (only 100) and doesn't help it against a large airforce. Vote: 7,5/10.

Vertigo. This was one of my favourite C&C3 units, but with TE and the Banshee this units seems less useful than before. Te role of precision bomber has been stolen by Banshee and I need some reasons to build it again. It deserves more firepower against structtures, so the vote is 9/10.

Banshee. Very good unit. Fast (even faster with the upgrade), and very powerful against air units and vehicles. Maybe it's too powerful against structures (I fear it steals the role of the base cracker to the Vertigo) and it may be too much exposed in a dogfight. Vote 9.

Here some suggestions for Nod air units.

First of all Banshee should hit air units without any upgrade and make the enhanced avionics an upgrade for all air units to increase the overall range (this may save Nod fighters from an excessive exposition to the enemy fire).

Then rework totally the signature generator. As it is is nearby useless in my opinion. Make it cost 1000 or 2000, make a better design and give an evasion rate to all Nod aircrafts against enemy air units only (ex: a 30 or 40%), so Nod airforce can survive a bit more without improve the armour. Brotherhood is all about speed, mobility, versatility and hit and run tactics. In this way there's no need to make an entire stealth airforce or give the usual "improvement in firepower" upgrade.

Last but not least, a personal consideration about Venom/Harpy. I've read the microwave pulse ability. It's perfect and the Nod fighter deserves it, but I think the whole idea to replace a nice design unit like Venom to something more obsolete like Harpy (even the "Venom" name sounds better to me) it doesn't like me that much. I mean. The Brotherood is the "State of the art" side in terms of technology and design, I don't see a good reason why they should replace a futuristic and good looking aircraft with a helicopter (because the name replace even the voice must edited, I don't see why wasting time to do it, plus not all from TS is good, think about the Limpet drone). Personally helicopters suit better for the mutants

I hope to give a contribute for the community. My goal is to avoid mass of the same unit and make a more mixed army.

Edited by: FortressMaximus

First. If you ever watched those small videos, from Tib Dawn to C&C 3, Orcas ALWAYS have a Minigun, but it is never used in-game, I like the Orca's having a Minigun for consistence's sake.
Second. In 1.5 Banshee's will get Advanced Avionics built in.
Third. "but is all about what if GDI and Nod do not abandon technologies they have used in Tiberian Sun era and instead of that further developed them."
Nod is going to get the Harpy. I mean its a helicopter that doesn't need to reload, Futuristic enough for you? Probably not.
Fourth. Vertigo is stealth Banshee is not. There are plenty of instances were stealth would be more handy then what the Banshee can offer.
Fifth. People are going to spam, regardless of what happens.
Sixth. Signature Generator was useless anyways, nothing is going to make it useful.
Seventh. Back to the Orca for a second, Even IF the orca gets the Minigun upgrade the Venom is still better. 1v1 Orca vs. Venom. The Venom always wins.
So if your getting spammed by Orcas with Miniguns you spam back.
I all honesty I don't use the jump jet trooper. I never found him to be as useful as he was in TS. What he can do a Commando or Zone trooper can do better.

Thats pretty much all I got to say.

The Jumpjet Trooper is really usefull and it's perfect as it is now, nothing has to be changed, nothing.

The Orca's Minigun is much weaker than the Firehawk's missiles.

The Firehawk is one of the biggest pains for me, especially with the Stratofighter Booster.

The Orca Bomber has the Minigun removed in 1.5. Also, if used properly, four Orca Bombers can take out half a base.

Maybe improve the Stormrider's anti-air firepower, yeah.

The Devastator is just fine, I share your point.

The PAC is a wonderful unit, nothing has to change.

The Harpy is GOOD. The Signature Generator is BAD. Replace it with Temporary Stealth Generators, that would be helpful. Also, why replace the Venom? Firstly, because Nod does not use VTOL aircraft. Secondly, Nod uses low-tech units at tier 1 and 2, and at tier 3 they go at extreme technology. A heli is lower tech than a VTOL.

The Vertigo is stealthed all the time, maybe giving it the Afterburners and the Laser Capacitors upgrade too to make it more usefull.

The Banshee, though my favorite unit, has one major flaw. It shoots its load really slowly. It scarcely has the chance to shoot all its bullets before dying if its enemy has decent AA capabilities, and that is too bad for its cost, which is freaking high, it's just a shame to waste all that money on a unit that will die before dealing all the damage it can.

playmsbk wrote:
The Banshee, though my favorite unit, has one major flaw. It shoots its load really slowly. It scarcely has the chance to shoot all its bullets before dying if its enemy has decent AA capabilities, and that is too bad for its cost, which is freaking high, it's just a shame to waste all that money on a unit that will die before dealing all the damage it can.

Carnius have a idea a while ago.
It flies over just lie it does now, only because it got the hover technology that it will make a turn WHILE it flies over.. so it can fire the full load in a single stroke.
So it still the banshee, but then with new technology to kill his target.
(it can't really stop in mid air because it still got thrusters on the back, and in real life it's harder to hit a moving target) so that's why it will not stop in mid air and fire the load.

i don't know if it will be possible or will be done.. but it is something carnius told us a while ago.. (about 6 months?)

Edited by: Starfox100

I do not approve of the Banshee stopping in mid-flight to shoot its plasma. The Banshee always 'strafed' and I'd like to keep seeing it 'strafe'.

playmsbk wrote: Nod does not use VTOL aircraft.

I agree with everything you say except this. In the C&C multiverse, only 3 factions have ever had non VTOL aircraft (unless I'm forgetting one). America and china, from Generals, and the original nod, from tib dawn. even then, nods only non VTOL craft was a transport that you couldn't control.

As much as I'm arguing semantics, it's true.

The only way i could see the Signature generator being more useful is if it summoned 2 decoy venoms/harpys. (Like the decoy army power) Therefor instead of just spamming the radar with extra blips, it could be more useful becuase it would not be overpowered as they would be killed very easy and cause no damage. The venom is spammed as it is, so seeing 3 times as many would be more of a fright than radar blips. Many just change the price from $100 to $500, and it would still be worth the small price.

BerryBomber wrote: The only way i could see the Signature generator being more useful is if it summoned 2 decoy venoms/harpys. (Like the decoy army power) Therefor instead of just spamming the radar with extra blips, it could be more useful becuase it would not be overpowered as they would be killed very easy and cause no damage. The venom is spammed as it is, so seeing 3 times as many would be more of a fright than radar blips. Many just change the price from $100 to $500, and it would still be worth the small price.

IMO that is the best idea in the whole thread

GooberTrooper wrote: First. If you ever watched those small videos, from Tib Dawn to C&C 3, Orcas ALWAYS have a Minigun, but it is never used in-game, I like the Orca's having a Minigun for consistence's sake.

Back to the Orca for a second, Even IF the orca gets the Minigun upgrade the Venom is still better. 1v1 Orca vs. Venom. The Venom always wins.
So if your getting spammed by Orcas with Miniguns you spam back.

A video isn't a valid balance demonstration because in FMV usually even tanks have a machine gun or ships have several types of weapon. Since C&C1 Orca had the role of ground attack air unit. Its specialization is enemy vehicles. The actual minigun is a balance killer since it makes it too much powerful against its natural weaknesses (air units and infantry) and doesn't even need to reload. A Venom is overall inferior (and should be the Nod natural counter) against this kind of Orca, even if wins against 1vs1 battle it shouldn't be damage against a ground attack aircraft. It's like giving to a Titan the Goliath quad cannon.

Second. In 1.5 Banshee's will get Advanced Avionics built in.

Nothing wrong against it.

Third. "but is all about what if GDI and Nod do not abandon technologies they have used in Tiberian Sun era and instead of that further developed them."
Nod is going to get the Harpy. I mean its a helicopter that doesn't need to reload, Futuristic enough for you? Probably not.

Indeed, because the Venom does exactly the same thing and has a futuristic design that fits in the era.

Fourth. Vertigo is stealth Banshee is not. There are plenty of instances were stealth would be more handy then what the Banshee can offer.

This isn't a valid instance since Vertigo is designed to be a bomber and its role is to destroy buildings. Why a Banshee should be an overkill unit?

Fifth. People are going to spam, regardless of what happens.

For this reason a good RTS and a better mod should offer enough contermeasures to get rid of it.

playmsbk wrote: The Jumpjet Trooper is really usefull and it's perfect as it is now, nothing has to be changed, nothing.

The Orca's Minigun is much weaker than the Firehawk's missiles.

As written above, even if is still weaker it doesn't need to reload and can be spammed as multirole unit. For this reason I suggest to replace the minigun with an universal air upgrade.

The Orca Bomber has the Minigun removed in 1.5. Also, if used properly, four Orca Bombers can take out half a base.

Good to know.

The PAC is a wonderful unit, nothing has to change.

Maybe too much wonderful. I'm just worried about its efficiency against air units.

The Harpy is GOOD. The Signature Generator is BAD. Replace it with Temporary Stealth Generators, that would be helpful. Also, why replace the Venom? Firstly, because Nod does not use VTOL aircraft. Secondly, Nod uses low-tech units at tier 1 and 2, and at tier 3 they go at extreme technology. A heli is lower tech than a VTOL.

I guess here you're wrong. At tier 2 Nod uses the Phantom and the Basilisk which aren't that low tech in terms of design and technology.

The Vertigo is stealthed all the time, maybe giving it the Afterburners and the Laser Capacitors upgrade too to make it more usefull.

Laser capacitor for laser guided bombs? How can be used it for a Vertigo?

The Banshee, though my favorite unit, has one major flaw. It shoots its load really slowly. It scarcely has the chance to shoot all its bullets before dying if its enemy has decent AA capabilities, and that is too bad for its cost, which is freaking high, it's just a shame to waste all that money on a unit that will die before dealing all the damage it can.

The easiest solution could be: Banshee immediately shots half of its payload against the target, then strafe, then comes back.

It flies over just lie it does now, only because it got the hover technology that it will make a turn WHILE it flies over.. so it can fire the full load in a single stroke.

Maybe this is too much since the devastating Banshee's firepower.

BerryBomber wrote: The only way i could see the Signature generator being more useful is if it summoned 2 decoy venoms/harpys. (Like the decoy army power) Therefor instead of just spamming the radar with extra blips, it could be more useful becuase it would not be overpowered as they would be killed very easy and cause no damage. The venom is spammed as it is, so seeing 3 times as many would be more of a fright than radar blips. Many just change the price from $100 to $500, and it would still be worth the small price.

This is also a good idea, but I guess the price should be a little higher.

Edited by: FortressMaximus

*The Harpy/Vertigo will have that microwave pulse, which will replace the signature upgrade (this last one wil come out as default on every Harpy). Don´t forgive this kids. Also the Laser capacitor is still in. Basically the Harpy is done. And stop complaining about the design maggotz.

*PAC is already good enought. Sometimes even OP. No changes needed. If you want a "OMG OVERKILLING SHIP", see the Assault Mothership.

*Basically with the "Minigun upgrade", Orcas are not that overkill as you said. They are not all that powerful anyway. Also orcas requires landing places on the airfields, unlike the Harpys. And airfields requires space and money. So they will hardly exist more Orcas than Harpys on the battlefield. And considering that Harpys are better than orcas in 1vs1. On these cases you can use the Jump Jet dudes. And once more: Orcas armor are shitly. AND EVEN MORE: The upgrade is only avaliable on teir 3 to make them more useful at late battles. No mothafucking changes needed!

*On the Second Tiberium War, you can see lasers on teir 1. Also, lasers are a quite simple to be made. The Phanton can be "high techy", but they are expensive of it´s teir. So it´s ok.

I'm 30 years old (you're 16) so please be more respectful . Instead of being vulgar, you should read carefully what people write. Even if the standard signature generator is installed, this doesn't mean that should be improved. No one complains about the model design. I'm only saying that a helicopter looks outdated to the brotherhood. A helicopter fits better for Mutants because their overall low technology.

Black/Brunez wrote: PAC is already good enought. Sometimes even OP. No changes needed.

This is contradictory. If something is OP why don't fix it?

If you want a "OMG OVERKILLING SHIP", see the Assault Mothership.

Mothership was considered a super weapon.

Basically with the "Minigun upgrade", Orcas are not that overkill as you said. They are not all that powerful anyway. Also orcas requires landing places on the airfields, unlike the Harpys.

Read above. Only missiles require to reload, miniguns don't, this changes the unit's nature.

So they will hardly exist more Orcas than Harpys on the battlefield. And considering that Harpys are better than orcas in 1vs1. On these cases you can use the Jump Jet dudes. And once more: Orcas armor are shitly. AND EVEN MORE: The upgrade is only avaliable on teir 3 to make them more useful at late battles. No mothafucking changes needed!

Who are you to order people what to ask? Orca is never supposed to be an AA nor AP unit since the first C&C. Firehawks and Jumpjet troopers are supposed to attack air units and they are their roles. This is a simple yet valid balance reason to ask the minigun replacement.

On the Second Tiberium War, you can see lasers on teir 1. Also, lasers are a quite simple to be made. The Phanton can be "high techy", but they are expensive of it´s teir. So it´s ok.

Off course it's ok. If the Brotherhood is able to use laser as tier 2 (and particle upgrade for Buggy/turrets) this means it's really the "state of the art tech" faction. Since Basilisk laser isn't that simple (since it can be concentrated to hit a single target, can be used as triple laser and can charge obelisks) compared to the old single shot laser turret. Price isn't a tier discrimination so doesn't change at all.

On a side note: please remember that constructive criticism is not a complaint. Is what makes a community greater, bigger and better. Mod developers need more constructive criticism to improve the quality of their products rather than mere "OMG AWESOME!1!1" replies and insult who thinks differently from you.

Edited by: FortressMaximus

Well, I might as well through my two cents in.
#1, The reason the Orca assault aircraft could not attack other aircraft, was because it was not possible due to engine limitations.
"The craft is armed with two weapons - a six barreled, forward mounted gatling gun (equipped with a searchlight) and a pair of Dragon TOW missile launchers on its sides, each containing nine rockets. Some later models had two forward mounted machine guns. Be advice, the gun is somewhat inoperable in game." Cnc.wikia.com
In the second game, the mini gun was removed. "The Fighter itself remains a VTOL based aerial assault vehicle, with revamped and miniaturized engines. The armor is upgraded and the craft is now armed with Hellfire missiles. The chin mounted minigun was removed from the design, as the fighter's main role is engaging armor with guided missiles, and the chaingun proved to be ineffective at killing infantry and unwieldy when used." Cnc.wikia.com
In the third game, it is actually capable of Air to Air in lore via Air to Air missiles, and an autocannon. "Its armament varies, but is in every way superior to its predecessors, and can be composed of an M230 30mm autocannon with 1200 rounds, Hellfire V rockets, AIM-500 Stinger air to air missiles, AGM-240 Sidearm air-to-ground missiles, AIM-18 Sidewinder air intercept missiles and Hydra 70 unguided air-to-ground rockets." Cnc.wikia.com

#2: this year is 2011, coming on 2012. lasers are incredibly common in this day and age. Weaponized lasers aren't the mainstay, but they are coming up quickly. in just 30 years lasers went from a theory (1960) to something that could cut through skin. (1987) in 1992 lasers were used to neutralize landmines with the Zeus-HLONS. in 1996 the Tactical High Energy Laser can shoot down ballistic warheads. in 2008, the FIRESTRIKE laser system is announced to the public. It can be combined with other such FIRESTRIKE units to increase power. It can be fired continuously so long as power and cooling are maintained. Irconnect.com Theregister.co.uk This is actually better technology than the basilisk employs.
Tiberium wars takes place in the year 2047. Thats 36 years in the future. With the advances that have been made in laser technology over the last 40 years, I think that Nod is more than qualified to have low tech lasers, at a relatively cheap cost.

#3 The PAC can be a powerful weapon on mass, I however think it is not that powerful at all. It is just too easy to kill and too expensive for me to employ it as anything other than a support ship. It is also meant to be an anti-air support ship for the devastator warships, which is why it doesn't do that much damage vs ground targets.

#4 Who knows why Nod would keep the harpy design? but I know one thing, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. The M1911 has been in service for 100 years. the AK47 has been in service since 1945. These are both examples of great technology being used for long periods of time. A helicopter could also fit this bill quite well seeing as how a single rotter is easier to maintain than VTOL technology, as there are fewer parts, and getting rid of the VTOL tech would free up room for fuel and ammo and weapons.

#5 The vertigo fits its role perfectly as anti building and can be used as a tactical bomber when Microed correctly to wipe out vehicles and infantry. It can be used as a stealth scout, and can attack air craft from behind. The banshee is great. I love it. I never use it. It is far too expensive for what it can do and becomes a huge target. yes it can shoot down most aircraft in 2 shots, but a firehawk can down it before those shots even get off. yes it can do moderate damage to a structure or vehicle, but thats moderate. The banshee is a multi-role fighter/bomber that is a jack of all trades. It can do it yes, but not as well as specialized units can.

#6 Orca bombers are nice too, they provide a huge amount of damage to ground targets and are heavily armoured. The are also instantly targeted by anyone who knows what they can do. 8 Firehawks can kill anything in 1 run, so using the radar scan and the strato fighter upgrade as well as some micromanagment....

TL:DR: Science and history.

Well, I´m sorry. Taking care of a old woman with cancer can make anyone go crazy. Without counting the sleepless nights. Anyway, I didn´t thought that anyone would get offended. Any argument was made to offend anyone. The vocabulary was bad, but was indeed made some contrutive criticism. Even many arguments I used yesterday was re-used here.

FortressMaximus wrote: This is contradictory. If something is OP why don't fix it?

I just used the wrong word. The PACs are already good enough. No buffs needed. Feel of those already can destroy a base.

FortressMaximus wrote: Mothership was considered a super weapon.

But this is still a, as my raged version said, "OMG OVERKILLING SHIP". Also it´s an epic. Fully different from a SW.

FortressMaximus wrote: Read above. Only missiles require to reload, miniguns don't, this changes the unit's nature.

You got it wrong. I wanted to say (and even said), it´s almost impossible to exist more Orcas than Harpys and Jump Jet Dudes, since every Orca requires a landing space. Anyway, reloadable minigun ammo don´tlook a bad suggestion...

FortressMaximus wrote: Who are you to order people what to ask?

Lolwut?

FortressMaximus wrote: Orca is never supposed to be an AA nor AP unit since the first C&C. Firehawks and Jumpjet troopers are supposed to attack air units and they are their roles. This is a simple yet valid balance reason to ask the minigun replacement.

Ok, so let´s remove the AA from Tempests and Stealth Tanks, since one was made for siege and other to ambush tanks. Same for the Purifier upgrade for the avatar, since Devil´s Tongues and Black Hands already have flamethrowers. Don´t forget the AA from the Banshees, since it was made to attack ground targets.

As I already said, the minigun upgrade was created to make the Orcas more useful on late battles. Think on the ShockWave Granades upgrade for Falcons and RPG Towers, the Tiberium Warheads affecting attack bikes, the Ion Storm Generator affecting Mantas... and much more.

FortressMaximus wrote: Off course it's ok. If the Brotherhood is able to use laser as tier 2 (and particle upgrade for Buggy/turrets) this means it's really the "state of the art tech" faction. Since Basilisk laser isn't that simple (since it can be concentrated to hit a single target, can be used as triple laser and can charge obelisks) compared to the old single shot laser turret. Price isn't a tier discrimination so doesn't change at all.

Yet Nod still makes some exessive use of low tech units. And lasers are still simplier than you think. Even on the Beam Cannon. And price can be a kind of teir discrimination. Why hightechier and more powerful are more expensive?

Also agree with everything said by Golden Arbiter

Edited by: justgoaway