A group for those without religion, as well as those who oppose it.
True. Lets hope that the string theory can be proven as fact, so we can drop this divinity delusion for good.
This is wrong. So I think it's my duty to correct the misunderstanding that is here. So what is so "wrong" about this quote, basically the quote is backwards, God made the world very good, but because we chose to turn away from God pain/death/destruction/suffering/etc entered the world. So why did God let us turn away from him? Well because I would certainly not call the ability to ONLY do good as free will. (Sometimes I get disgusted with how terribly aweful I am, wich compared to the world isn't that bad. But still I sometimes wish I could just do good, basically I freely want to give up my free will:D) anyways that's not the point, the point is that it isn't God's fault that there is pain/death/etc, its OUR FAULT. Of course the next question is why did God punish us for sinning, well tell me of one country which doesn't punish law breakers? God asked them to do one thing yet they chose to do the opposite so God had to punish them for disobaying. But how can we have free will when we get punished for using it? Well we still have free will which allows us to do what God asks us not to do, but all actions have consequences. Some have "good" consequences while other have "bad" consenquences. And God being just has to be just since that is his nature and he knows what the right punishment is and that was basically (as I understand it) God withdrew his power and banned us from the garden where life was all nice and pretty. Since then DNA mutations have been destroying the human race. (Most mutations are bad) anyways this is part of the reason why I can never agree with old earthers.
Sorry for another response but a lot of what is posted here is, simple put, WRONG.
Without even reading your comment, I already know what you will say. What the hell are you still doing here? We've gone over this before a million times.
Still let me debunk your argument:
1. God did not make the world very good. We do not have proof he made the world very good. If there is a god, he made it balanced with both good and bad things automatically in the system.
2. It's again not our fault and you cannot prove this. Yes, bad things can happen when we do bad things. But what about the robber who gets away with the jackpot he stole and lives a happy, prosperous and rich life?
3. It's not just that either. We can have a good person go through so much **** in reality only to die a gruesome and painful death in a car wreck he didn't cause.
It just seems to me morality is an abstract concept we made up to help stop our species from killing each other off and to give hope to a hopeless and unforgiving life.
Another retarded comment... God created the path you described by creating the devil and the tree with the forbidden fruit. So the quote of Joseph Heller is quite accurate and needs no correction - or rather distortion - of your kind.
So God was evil for creating free will? WOW.
For "creating" a "free will"? No. But for doing evil? Yes!
How is making a world with challenges and difficulty evil? Even an Atheist would agree that difficulty can bring out the best qualities of a human being. In fact, difficulty is often the very component that drives men to greatness. No one (besides my cat) has ever achieved his goals by pouting his *** off.
I agree, totally. But thats not what I mean, when I call God evil. I mean basically the literal interpretation of the Bible. Or in short: flood, creation of hell, damnation and threatening of non-believers or anything else that challenges God, rape, slavery, suppression of women, murder of homosexuals ect.
I know that the Bible also has some parts of goodness that are worth living, but taking this book literal with those contents leads to a dangerous attitude - like waves of hate against homosexuals, transexuals, other races and non-believers in the USA. Thats why I say, if people want to keep their faith, they should rewrite the Bible as people have done it 900 years ago to make it fit to our modern age. Moderate christians should write new books that fit into our time. A combination of deism and christianity, with a greater approval to modern science and maybe even some atheists will start believing again since most of us refuse christianity because it is by far not up to date - besides the stupidity and forcing behavior of a part of christians.
Ah, I see what you mean. You know what my main problem with people who take the Bible literally is? They don't take the Bible literally enough. To take something literally, you also have to take into context, which is something many modern Christians (especially conservatives) are unable to comprehend.
DetoNato wrote: Or in short: flood, creation of hell, damnation and threatening of non-believers or anything else that challenges God, rape, slavery, suppression of women, murder of homosexuals ect.
1. If you want to know about the Bible's stance on hell and the afterlife, I suggest buying a book by Robert H. Bell, called "Love Wins". You might find it interesting, and it explains in depth about what the Bible says regarding hell.
2. Read Genesis 6. It explains why God had to "restart" humanity.
3. There is actually a reason why the Israelites killed homosexuals. I talked with Deer_Hunter about it, and interestingly, he agreed with me on it. I can send you the PM thread if you like.
4. I explained before how slavery didn't really exist in the days of the Bible. In Israelite culture, a man or woman could repay her debts by working as an indentured servant for a period of up to 7 years maximum. The servant would be given food, lodging, and if asked for, lodging for his/her family. There was occasional violence on the part of the servant's master, but you should remember that in an ancient culture as Israel, economic law enforcement would have been almost non-existent.
Continued in following post....
Something interesting I found:
"The Bible does address the issue of rape. As expected, when the Bible mentions the crime of rape, it is depicted as a gross violation of God’s design for the treatment of the human body (Genesis 34). The Bible condemns rape whenever it is mentioned. For example, there is a particular passage in the laws given to the nation of Israel before entering the Promised Land under Joshua’s leadership. This passage (Deuteronomy 22:13-29) spoke directly against forcing a woman into a sexual encounter against her will, or what we know today as rape. This command was meant to protect women and to protect the nation of Israel from committing sinful actions."
"There are some difficult passages in the Old Testament, however, in relation to this issue. Critics of the Bible are quick to point to Numbers 31 (and other similar passages) in which the Israelites were allowed to take female captives from nations they conquered. Critics make the accusation that this is an example of the Bible condoning, or even promoting, rape. However, the passage says nothing about raping the captive women. It is wrong to assume that the captive women were to be raped. Again, Deuteronomy 22:25-27 condemns rape, even advocating the death penalty for perpetrators of rape. In the Numbers 31 passage the soldiers were commanded to purify themselves and their captives (verse 19). Rape would have violated this command (see Leviticus 15:16-18). The women who were taken captive are never referred to as sexual objects."
Another article you might find interesting: Equip.org
"restart"? That's a pretty mild way of saying "Omnicide".
No elf its right
The man who said this clearly doesn't have a darn idea about what "gaining understanding through difficulty" means. This is like if I went saying that soccer is evil to the core because you can get your knee injured. In life, there are some things that we can only learn through difficulty and loss.
Do you choose to be old? You will eventually get old and then you become weak. Being old, you are blessed with a wealth of problems not just limited to what the quote says. Many diseases and mental problems surface under old age.
While that's definitely true, a lot of problems that accompany old age can easily be prevented by living a healthier lifestyle. Excesses of sugar, alcohol, tobacco, and caffeine can all cause severe problems for people in their old age, as well as in their earlier life.
I tend to agree with this, since I think alcohol and tobacco are bad and unnecissary inventions of mankind. Excesses of sugar on the other hand depands on case to case since every person can handle a different amount of sugar.
Tying into both Jiang's and Elf's comments:
A good number of diseases don't work like that. For instance, in about 60 years, it's pretty much assured by family genetics that I will get alzheimers and forget everything. Is that MY fault?
On a broader spectrum, let's say Black Death. Millions died, because there was a lack of knowledge and medicine. Is that THEIR fault?
I'm not saying it's God's fault, because I don't think he exists, but to say that God "made the Earth good" and it's "our fault" all awful things like that are happening is preposterous. It's just nature.
Emm...The Black Death was caused because of people's lack of knowledge, which was a direct result of closing themselves off to modern knowledge. In Asia, people where not nearly as narrow-minded about medicine and health, and they caught on pretty quickly that rats were the problem.
Also, you should remember that good can come out out of bad situations. The memory of the Black Plague became the driving force behind the will of men to learn about medicine and health. Can you imagine what would have happened if medicine had not changed since the medieval ages, and mankind had to face the new ailments which so frequently ravage places that lack modern medicine?
I've heard this question many times, where people say that because the world has difficulty and pain, God can't exist. Think about this though: What is life, but learning how to live and grow through difficulty and pain? Difficulty, as terrible as it may be, is not altogether evil. People can learn and grow through difficulty, and even become better off than when they began if they put their mind to it.
A couple years ago, I was diagnosed with epilepsy. My mother didn't know a thing about epilepsy, besides from what she watched on TV. Over time, the symptoms got worse, varying from respiratory malfunctions to excruciating pain. After several months of having epilepsy, my mother found out about something called the "Modified Atkins Diet". It's a newly-developed diet that is believed to able to be treat a number of other diseases besides epilepsy, including diabetes, alzheimers, cancer, and even Parkinson's disease. (Take note, this diet DID NOT exist in China.) With the help of my mother and online medical counseling, I took diet treatment for 2 years. That wasn't the end though. My mother realized that this diet should be introduced to China, as we had virtually no medical assistance from Chinese doctors, who had never even heard of it. Over a period of two years, my mother worked with doctors and medical experts to develop books and videos for doctors, explaining the basics of the Modified Atkins Diet, as well as providing a video guide for the patient's use. My mom pretty much introduced the Modified Atkins Diet to China, and now it's becoming a standard treatment in numerous areas around the country. You can check out my mom's website here: Healingyounghearts.org
Now that I think about what happened all those years ago, I realized something. If I hadn't been diagnosed with epilepsy, my mother would never have introduced the Modified Atkins Diet to China. Before then, she had little interest, much less knowledge, about dealing with epilepsy. If I never had epilepsy, I don't know who I would be, or what my life would be like.
I agree that a God could exist just as plausibly exist in a world of hardship. We need that hardship for balance, I wouldn't want a God that makes everything all fluffy and nice. However, I find it preposterous when people like Elf go "Well God is great and wonderful and he made this world amazing and THEN WE *%$@##!!**%$ THE WHOLE @$%#*&&*!!@#$ THING OVER AND EVERYTHING BAD, EVER IS ALL OUR &$%##*&!!@ FAULT!!" *sob*
I find the concept that everything's bad because of humanity's oh-so-horrible-god-defying-inherent-unholy-evil sort of like being a race-wide emo teenager. People need to stop hating themselves. I find the concept that God directly intervines and delibirately "chooses" who lives or dies rather morbid, and kind of disturbing. Let me go all deist on you now: if there is a God, the only just one would be one that simply made the world and doesn't intervene, letting us choose our course and plotting our own future. I simply don't understand why people have this obsession with having God constantly involved in their lives and applying religious meaning to EVERYTHING. Wouldn't our freedom to do as we wish, to determine our own destiny, be greater than any of that?
Mr.Walrus wrote: I find the concept that God directly intervines and delibirately "chooses" who lives or dies rather morbid, and kind of disturbing. Let me go all deist on you now: if there is a God, the only just one would be one that simply made the world and doesn't intervene, letting us choose our course and plotting our own future.
Exactly. While I do believe that on occasions, God does and will intervene, the majority of life's course is determined by us. I found William L. Craig's theory on this quite interesting. The reasoning behind his theory is that God does not control everything that will happen in our lives; rather, He knows every possible outcome, and what outcome will happen is largely up to us.
Even if there was a god, it would most certainly not be christian. If they supposedly follow the commands of god, then why were millions murdered to control "the holy land" during crusades? Last time I checked, no one was killed in the name of Buddhism.
I hadn't realized Soccer has a mind of Its own, nor any power over the universe to begin with. I'll immediately pray to Soccer in the hope that It will forgive me for having doubted Its all mighty knee injuring and concussion inducing powers.
The question is not so much about the soccer ball having a mind of it's own, as it is about the person who complains that soccer is evil because he tripped over the ball having a mind at all.
I wrote: This is like if I went saying that soccer is evil to the core because you can get your knee injured.
WARNING: Soccer ball to the knee jokes imminent.
I used to be a footballer like you, but then I took a red card too many.
Lets make a real flat internet joke of it:
I used to be a footballer like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Ok, pretty lame as well. :P
I used to be soccer player like you, but then I took a football to the nuts.
Heres one for u...
I used to be a christain like you but then I took reality to the brain...
Catch 22- i love that book, one of the most interesting i ever read.
and the quote is very accurate indeed.
I suggest you read it- its hard to find in some places because its on several banned books lists but it is worth it.
I find it funny that christains think they have to continously fill this page full of there preaching and superstious garbage.
O and elf its not wrong- your the one who is wrong here- I am quite thankful that your god is just a silly 5000yr old superstition because if it was real it woul be the most cruel, and malevalent being to ever exist- it would make Hitler Stalin Mao and every other mass murder in history look like saints- its that bad.
I know you cant grasp this because of your christain indoctrination and brainwashing but if you could step back and use a rational mind for just a second you would realize this to be true.
I AM GOD! TOOTH DECAY! YAY!
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