A Better Place image - Atheists, Agnostics, and Anti-theists of ModDB

My point exactly.

But if death=end then people can comit a ton of aweful crimes and then kill themselves and never get judged for them....while the alternative is that God will judge everyone. Also heaven will not just be sitting doing nothing because it would be very borring. I actually think that people would be able to do anything that they want to (of course there won't be anyone that enjoys sin so everything would be good) so humans would be able to put thier creativity to use. (even building cool tech and developing cool stuff that on earth are limited by technology and materials) while hell will simply be the exact mirror of heaven without God and filled with those whose very thoughts are harmful. Since God is good then a place without God has not good in it. Lastly we humans were made by God and so we are meant to be with him, which explains why Jesus warned so many that nobody wants to go to hell.

That is very wishful thinking. Oh yeah, that would be a truly great place, don't get me wrong, but far too far fetched for my liking.

If God is so almighty, why can't he stop evil?

He doesn't stop evil because he gave us FREE WILL he wanted something unpredictable so he made humans. And please tell me how this theory is far fetched and nothing exploding is not?

God must be almighty to be God. If he gave us free will, then either he cannot know what we will do or he does know but won't stop us. Thus he is either not almighty or just doesn't care. Plus he could of stopped the so called "Devil" from "corrupting us". But he didn't, either because he couldn't (thus he is not almighty) or he does not care (which contradicts what is said in the Bible).

Religion may be logical in one point (nothing making something) but is illogical in nearly every other point. Plus since no one actually knows how the Universe was created we have no proof to back up that logical point.

Oh but God can and does judge people, before the flood people fell away from God and were doing a lot of wicked things. And God was sad. His creation turning against him like that. But Noah still love God and so God saved Noah and his family while killing every other human being. Thankyou for finally agreeing with me!!! Both evolution and Christianity require faith! So why then do you guys claim that you have science behind your religion and that Christians are dumb??

I'm not agreeing with you... Evolution does not require faith. It is merely the conclusions from observation.

In fact, it is you who are proving my point:

If God is almighty, how come his own creation turned agaisnt him? Either he didn't care (which he didn't, instead of trying to reason with them he simply eliminated them) or he couldn't stop them, so he had to kill them (proving his incompetance and that he is not almighty).

I'm not saying Christians are dumb, nor am I saying I have a Religion (I don't >.<). I'm just saying you are ignorant. The difference is small, but there is still a difference.

Good point. However, God is just so he could not have broken his promise "if you eat the fruit from that tree then you shall surely die" he cannot break this, his perfect. So he had to kick them out. And If he prevented it then Adam and Eve would not have had free will, right? And reasoning would have maybe saved that generation but people fall away from God after a while. Also after sin entered the world. Humans were imperfect and the penealty for even one sin is death. Jesus was sent to give humans the ability to not die. Now how could it be science if it's unprovable? Evolution is unprovable! I have not seen a fish turning into a frog....maybe you have I don't know. Now if Jesus was not who he said he was then why did the early Christians willingly get brutally killed even though just simply saying that Jesus was fake would have saved them? There's a very good book about Jesus written by an atheist, well now his a christian, but he was an atheist when he was writing the book, 'the case for Christ' if I remmeber correctly:D also I'm using my iPhone and it hates me....it auto corrects even the stuff that are right:( and its hard to edit once I finish writing too:( anyways I enjoy debates with resonable people like you:)

Free Will is an illusion if it is God who grants it. For him to be perfect, and thus almighty, he must know everything we will do and have done. Therefore, he knows all of the horrible crimes that shall and have been commited, including the many wars, Crusades and the slaughter of the Jews during the early 20th Century. Thus we come back to the previous arguement: Either God can't stop them, proving he is not almighty and thus not perfect, or he simply doesn't care. It is either one or the other, for God has complete control of the Universe (according to Religion) and thus everything that happens, including evil, are his responsability. Either he cannot stop it or he will not. One proves he does not exsist, the other proves that if he does exsist he is not the caring guy you all think he is.

Evolution takes years and years. Scratch that, millions of years. One form of Evolution are Humans. We went from cavemen who ran around naked holding spears and hunting for a living to the dominant species of Planet Earth living in massive buildings with technology that could potencially destroy the planet. That is Evolution.

People were idiots. You tell them something, you sell it to them well enough, and they'll buy it. Hell, people still are idiots. Luckily, you religious people have the excuse of Tradition. You were brought up believing in God and stuff. Those guys who died on the cross? They were idiots. Don't worry, pretty much everyone was idiotic back then. They believed anything and everything (proof of this is in Greek and Roman Legends) and thus when Jesus came along people started listening and believing.

you make great points in your skepticism. So God doesnt stop evil because he wants to show us a world were satan governs. also God like i said before CANNOT break his promise of giving us free will, he would have lied if he did that so he would not have been perfect. Now if people were stupid explain to me all the magnificent constructions that they made. before the flood, a lot of incredible things were accomplished: Biblegateway.com
also all the great civilizations rose up from nothing.

Not exactly from nothing. They rose on agriculture system and only on locations that were good for farming. Near great rivers and in sunny parts of Earth. When they stopped fighting each other and started to farm together, population grew and took more land - that's how they rose.

Try to imagine this: what if your parents and grandparents never mentioned God to you, what if you never heard of him? Do you think you would accept religion after years you lived without it?

Indeed. Everyone is born an Atheist. Everyone. Simply because God is not a natural thing, it is a man made thing.

This is mainly what disgusts me about religion. It brainwashes the future generation into believing in it, leaving them no choice at all.

I swear, if we let children choose if they want to follow religion or not (as of age 10-13) they would chose not to. THAT is true free will. The ability to chose your belief, and not have it forced onto you (whether you like it or not).

And just a note:

I'm not saying ancient civilisations couldn't build those "mangnificent structures". I'm say they were ignorant, they lacked scientific method (for the most part). They believed pretty much anything they were told, as long as the guy preaching did his job right. Sorry, I sometimes mix up ignorance and idiocy lol.

But then you cannot force people to believe evolution either, schools should teach both evolution and christianity.

I'm not talking about schools. I'm talking about teaching kids, and I mean kids (-10 of age) that God exsists and stuff. My parents didn't teach me anything about evolution when I was but a kid, I chose what to believe in on my own. That is what most Atheists do.

Religious people, however, raise their kids on their religion. They teach them that God exsists, say they have to pray to him and go to Church (or whatever >.<) and the child, obviously, has no choice but to listen and obey. By the time they reach the teens, they believe in God and whatever their religion believes in (apart from a few lucky ones who are smart enough to realise how ludicrus Religion sounds). However the choice was not theirs to make.

Now, if we were to do a scientific experiment, we would do the following:
We would raise two children. One would be taught nothing about anything supernatural. The other would be taught that Unicorns and Fairies and Ogres and Trolls and everything like that, all the fantasy of the world, was true and that they exsisted thousands of years ago.

Now, when they both reach teenage age, the first child will be perfectly normal, and would know that Elves and Magiciens are simply fantasy. The other, however, would believe with all his spirit and mind that those sort of things exsist.

Do you see how that child had no choice but to believe in those fantasy beings? It is because it is all he knows, he was raised on it. The same thing happens with Religion, only on a far larger scale.

But you cannot observe the big bang, so it's not scientific but it is a religion. And believe it of not but I rarely go to church, yet I believe that God has a purpose for my life. For me God is much more then just a being up in the clouds. And I agree that nobody can be forced to believe in God or in evolution, neither should be thaugh without the other. But most importantly evidence is what really matters, I wrote a good news about this but the science group doesnt want to accept it, now that's very narrow minded. Since science only prospers when people question it and say wait it couldn't have happened like that and here's an alternative.

Well but what about all the very intelegent things that are in the bible that science has only recently proven? "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."(Leviticus 17:11 KJV) this has been proven recently yet people would bleed each other to death in the middle ages. Like all they had to do is read thier bibles by of course Leviticus is too borring for that which is unfortunate since it has a lot of very good info in it:) also I agree that 5/6 of the definitions of the word evolution are unprovable, non-scientific however the one that is provable is micro-evolution. Variation within a kind of animal is very common. So why do you guys believe in something that's unprovable? Is it because there is something in the bible that goes against your life style? Really watch: 'the case for a creator' which was an investigation for evidence pointing to or away from God, done by an open minded Athiest that has followed his evidence to the end.

I didn't even mention the Big Bang. The Big Bang is a theory made from scientific observation.

Science is the enemy of Religion. Always has been, always will be. You cannot prove anything Religious using Scientific means. If you did, then what you proved never was Religious. God cannot be proven scientificly.

The way heaven is described, I find it terrifying to go there. Eternal life blessing a tyrant? No thanks.

Do you really think that all we will be doing is singing songs while sitting on a cloud? No I think that humans will be able to keep doing whatever they enjoy doing. Kind of like Adam and Eve were having a great time in the garden of Eden, so will heaven be amazingly awesome. By the way God's not a tyrant. And heres why I think he's not: do you know any tyrant that would sacrific himself for the good of his people?

God certainly is a tyrant. A mass murdering, genocidal tyrant, with a fetish for suffering.

And Eternal Life to me, would be the worst possible torture. It might be ok for the first 1000 years, but then the next 1000, and the next million,... and the next quadrillion, and so on for all eternity, with no end in sight. No thanks.

Satan is actually the good guy, if he existed that is, despite being labled as the bad guy.

God is forced to destroy his creation because Satan corrupts it. It's Satan's fault that God had to destroy his creation. And please tell me what is time? And I believe that we will perceive time differently from what we think it is now.

Actually, let us prove Helge's point by process of reverse-elimination (or something lol):

Suffering<--Humans<--Satan/Devil<--God.

Suffering was done by corrupt Humans. Humans were corrupted by Satan. Who made Satan? God, obviously. Let us use one of my favorite arguements agaisnt God to prove this:

God didn't create Satan: Thus he is not almighty, for he has no control over his own creation (as Satan entered and God was powerless to stop him).

God created Satan. Thus he is responsible for everything Helge said, and also not God (as for God to be a god be needs to be worthy of worship, and if he did those things he is not worthy of worship).

So either God does not exsist or he does but is not who you think he is.

God is who he says he is. Satan is constenly trying to destroy God's creation. Of course nothing hurts God more then humans turning on him. Think of it this way, every parent surfers when thier child(ren) turn against them. As seen in the parable of the lost son, the father (representing God) is looking for his son (any sinner) even though the son had left and is wasting his inheritance. The father kept looking for him everyday because he had hope that his son would return, and everyday he thought 'today is the day.' now the reason why we know that he was looking for him is because while the son was still a WAYS off his father saw him and ran out to meet him. So how can you call God a tyrant that destroys evil when he keeps standing at the doors knocking, and whoever opens the doors, then Jesus will come in and dine with him and he with Jesus. Satan is probably still loose to sort out the human race into those that love God and those that want nothing to do with God. Satan is wise, probably wiser then humans. I mean he is immortal. Also he is know as the deceiver. And if nothing that I have said had ever stuck with you then may this be the one thing that you guys remember, don't let Satan fool you.

@ElfFriend: And that makes him a Tyrant.

"Oh, my creation doesn't behave exactly as I want them to." *pushes reset button*

Oh no, God doesn't punish people without warnings. He sent contless prophets, unfortunately a lot of people don't listen. Take yourselves for example, your not listening to me so your probably not going to listen to a prophet. Further more God knows people's hearts, and when he knows that there is no hope for someone he does what he must to spare others from that someone's evil. (Sodom and Gomorrah are an excelent example of what I have just said. Their story is found in genesis. Very interesting and it shows that God doesn't kill anyone without a reason) Also would a tyrant sacrific a himself only to save those that have turned against him? No a tyrant would kill everyone that is against him. Yet Jesus died for us while we were still sinners. God loves us but he hates sin. So last question(least for now) do you call all parents tyrants?

"My parents torture me...because they love me!" I would call such parents Tyrants, yes.

To expand on that...
Satan is the good guy in the bible, God the Tarant-Dictator. God killed millions while Satan killed...uhm...Nobody, actually.

all that have died have died because of satan, if he hadn't deceived Eve there would not have been death. Cain was the first murderer, so God cursed him so that others dont follow in is footsteps, satan is the deceiver he will not stop until every human being either dies or gives their life to him. Satan constantly tries to get people to worship him. Satan has caused so many wars, he was(and IS) behind all the evil that has happened in this world. Satan also knows God and God's word, but he probably doesn't understand it, since to fully understand God and the Bible one must have the Holy Spirit with them. And would you really call parents that love their child but hate his sin...tyrants? i mean their doing it out of love, so that their child doesn't become something that will harm him/her.

I would call parents who kill their children for being disobedient not only Tyrants, but also Psychopaths.

Before claiming that Satan is responsible for everything, prove that he exists first.

So even though someone wants the best for others, you would still call him evil? And Satan exists, how else would there be so much evil in this world? And before you say it's our nature to do evil, think isn't it Satan that keeps deceiving us. Wasn't it him in Eden that made our human race fall? I can only prove he exists by what he does.

No, he does NOT want to best for others. He wants everyone to be completely subservient, slaves basically.

So would you believe in God if I were to prove his existence to you beyond a shadow of a doubt? Or would you be willingly ignorent? And if you seek proof of God there is a very cool event upcoming, the proof for God conference. Which is happening Oct. 12-13. Check creationtoday.org It will most likely be filmed. Also the case for christ and the case for a creator are great movies too. I recomend sreaching it up on YouTube. Lastly God reveals many things only to those that are with him. So Satan cannot fully understand what God is up to.

God destroys people that cannot be saved. People that would only destroy all other life. And people that like you do not want to have anything to do with God. So how can that be evil? But if you want to then choose where you rather be, in hell (eternally away from God) or in heaven (eternally with God) the choice is now to make, while your still alive. And if you think God is evil then hell will not have God in it. But it will be the evilest place possible. So this is a major blow to the idea that God is evil, isn't it? Especially since God sent his son to die in our place to save our souls from death.

Forgive me for speaking like Gandalf (in riddles) :D can't help it:(

It's their choice to go to heaven or not, there's nothing that I can do to force people to accept Jesus, but God wants us to share his love with others. Also I think that God being a just God will judge everyone according to their circumstances, intentions, etc. (nothing can be hidden from God)

I don't just believe the bible because that's all I have been taught for my entire life. But because it gives a hope and a future. Dont you want hope and a certain future, "for I have wonderful plans for you" declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you" sorry going of memory. I don't feel like pulling out my Bible at 12:46 am. Also I believe what I believe because I have shearched the Internet and God is provable. From what I saw and read the flood is actually possible. I posted an amazing news on the Christian group conserning my findings. But if you want to fulfill the prophecy in 2 peter (I think) anyways it went something like, 'for in the end days there will come scoffers that will be willingly ignorant' oh and that's another thing, the bible has a lot of prophecies, most of which have been fulfilled, while some are being fulfilled and/or will be fulfilled. So the bible has strong evidence for it being true.

No. I want my life to end with death, not to go on eternally.

I agree partly, however you missed the part where it says that they will be "willingly ignorant" in other words they will try dismissing God in anyway they can, even if it is closing their eyes to truth. However there are 'better' prophesies there a video on prophesies on the christian group:)