Why do parts have to be withen a certan level to combine? Thread - 3089

Why do parts have to be withen a certan level to combine?
really? i do not get the balance reason for it. any high level part will not live up to its full potintal if stuck on a low level gun, is that not balanced enough?

Maybe the tolerance could be increased to 2 levels, so you could have e.g. a level 4 rifle with parts from levels 3-5?

Like the OP, I'd love to see a little more flexibility in the gear construction. For most ger it doesn't really matter since you're only dealing with two parts anyway, but it seems logical that if a single component cna adapt eitehr 'up' or 'down' a level then it should be able to adapt 'between' two levels as well...

However, I think that allowing free combination of components might be pushing it a little too far - on the one hand I love the idea of completely customisable guns, but really you'd expect issues if you're combining junky first-level gear with top-of-the-range stuff dropped from collectors or overseer ships. For example, is a level 1 barrel really going to be able to cope with the power coming from a level 10 gun body part?

I think that a median solution would be best here, allow the gear to have an 'average' level taken from components close to each other in their level, but not too far. Absolute maximum IMO would be five levels, but then I really think that 'go between' components with additions one level higher or lower would make the most sense.

Of course, either method would require a re-work of the way the crafting is handled, moving a lot of data from the component level to the overall product level... in which case, I can understand if the change simply isn't worth the re-write.

Yeah, dont just allow them to be smashed together in any combination.... that'd be bad.

If you want to widen it a bit, really, 2 levels is probably enough, as items that are near to where you got the thing in question are likely to be within that range, particularly with the levels being a little more random now than they were before. So that change might work. Personally I think it's fine as it is, but that's just me. I do use the workshop pretty often.

The problem with going any further with it is that it really can make for some VERY powerful weapons/armor/whatever that outdo the area you're currently in simply because you went off and found/bought just ONE part. You'd end up with an unusually powerful item for the area your in without nearly as much burden or cost as you'd normally have to deal with to, say, use a level 10 item in a level 5 area.

Yeah, Misery55 sums it up pretty nicely. You could find a really good "support" part, like a body or magazine, that provides great explosive damage & fire rate and just keep using that same part on your guns. I could open it up to 2 levels, but I'm worried that is pushing it... I'm going to keep things as-is, for now.

well, the way i discovered it was i finaly found a scope for my rifle, but i forgot that loading a save put me back in the 7-8 village, so when i found a workstation, it turned out i could not use the scope

Any workstation can put any level parts together, granted the level of those parts are close. You must have been trying to put a level 7 scope on a level 1 or 2 rifle, and that is why it failed...

level 6 acualy

excellent news: through a hilarilously convenient bug, we can test the effect of how this idea would work

It turns out that if you go to a workstation and combine parts 'upward' (e.g. put your level 1 part on a level 2 piece of gear), the lower level parts retain the level of the total piece of gear when you go to combine them again. Basically if you take a piece of gear and connect it to one of the next level you can trick the game into thinking that the original piece is a level higher than it is.

As you can see, I've managed to get a level 7 scope on a level 9 gun - and I've managed to combine the same level 8 components later with a level 10 body by connecting them to a level 9 silencer first.

I have to test it more, but it looks like you could dupe the level of any component indefinitely if you were prepared to hunt arouind for the right 'conversion' components...

Personally, I think this should be a feature more than a bug since it requires you to make the items first (i.e. you can't just slap parts together, you still need to collect the pieces in between), so I propose that we give it a try and people can see whether it feels too OP before we call it one or the other. Eitehr way, I'm going to be very smug for a while since my 'silly superstition' (of building my gear up from level 1 through each level one part at a time) has paid off

you know, that could acualy be a function, where you can keep lower level parts if you slowly tack on higher level parts.

i still fail to see the balance reason for the level limit... can someone explane it to me?

I believe the point is that you can get amazingly OP loot parts through devious tactics (e.g. trick an army of blue robots into shooting a surveyor by accident, then finish it off from in cover), and even though they wouldn't be at their true potential as you say it would still be a massive boost early on.

Personally, I love the story behind upgrading a gun piece by peice (armour and otehr things I can't really be bothered with, since there isn't much carry over beween levels). Maybe we could have a way to upgrade the level of a component (could tie into the reforging idea) so it can be used on newer equipment? That way it's still balanced for people who are worried, but you can still combine anyhtign with anything else

i still fail to see the balance reason for the level limit... can someone explane it to me?

The primary balance reason is generally for "support" parts, like magazines & weapon bodies. You could find great support parts that provide high homing, low cooldown & ammo use, and continue to use those parts for higher & higher items. If you have a level 6 gun, you shouldn't be able to use your great level 3 magazine on it... you should need to find a great magazine closer to the level of the other parts.

Also, lower level parts weigh less. A level 6 gun should have parts that roughly weigh the same... being able to put lower level parts on a gun will reduce its weight in an unbalanced way.

I'm going to fix this "feature" so you can't put parts on higher level items...

er, what is to stop anybody from building a intire gun out of "devious tactics" parts

and i see what you mean with the homming thing phroot, seeing as parts like that have a max stat.... 100%
but i am disappointed that i will not be able to keep my favorite gun parts and stats thought my game, though thanks for giving me the balance reason, it is fully understandable

i will say this though, the biggest reason i bought this game was because i was exited over building guns and keeping my favorite parts for all guns, but that was when i was expecting system closer 3079, back when i could only use guns that added to my speed stat and another peice of gear that i could swithc to when i needed to jump. and i could not upgrade if it did not have thouse stats.

again, i do see the reason for it.

i am disappointed that i will not be able to keep my favorite gun parts and stats thought my game

A big element to these kinds of item-based RPGs (Diablo, Fallout 3, Borderlands etc.) is finding new and better gear. If you could keep your favorite gun parts you found at a low level, the excitement of finding new parts for those things would die quickly. If you really want to keep those old parts, you can, but they will hold you back from using better guns, so you may have to make tough choices in improving your character.

er, what is to stop anybody from building a intire gun out of "devious tactics" parts

I want players putting really good parts together, I just want the player to have to find those parts every few levels instead of finding them once.

The issue at the moment is that there's so much randomness involved - it's quite common to find large areas with no stations, so if you have level 5 parts on one side you could be looking at level 8 parts in the next village over. Seeing as you'd have to start from scratch with a new piece fo gear, you have issues of both cost and rarity - on the off chance that you do find all the good parts you want, it's probably going to cost a small fortune (especially if you want e.g. the barrel from one gun in the store and the magazine from another).

I agree with what has been said, it's just that the system is a bit unforgiving atm. Personally, I'd love it if there were more parts to every piece of gear, and most of them optional - that way you have a much higher chance of getting a 'good' piece of gear out of a solid basic setup, rather than having to hope for good stats on a few components. Imagine, for example, torso armour which stil has the two basic components with a couple of stats, but you cna also get e.g. sleeves, belt, banding etc. each of which is an opportunity for another stat boost. It's also going to make the thing weigh a lot more if you overdo it, so you have the tactical element as well: do you go for the lightweight gear and rely on one set of stats (agility, stealth etc.) or tank it up and rely on damage, defence etc.?

i just had a idea, how about you can put any part on any gun, but you get diminishing returns on "definitive" stats, as in anything that can top out at 100% while keeping "relative" stats, like +5 agility, as those allready get relatively weaker as you get stronger, along with toggle stats, like radioactive proof or scope.

what i mean is, you got 50% homing on a level 10 scope,
if you put that on a level 10 gun, you get 50% homing bullets, and it will be that way for up to whatever range you want, but when you get out of that range, like say a level 15 or 5 gun, you only get 25% homing, and none for for level 20 or level 1 guns.

that way you do not have to abandon parts, but you will still want to upgrade as soon as you can.

Now that is an interesting take on it... it makes me think of parts 'fitting' together, the better the fit between levels the better the end result.

However, I still think there needs to be a limit - combining a level 20 part into a level 1 gun at the start of the game is going to be OP no matter which way you spin it, regardless of how much that level 20 part is nerfed.

Perhaps parts could have a 'compatibility' stat, which describes how many levels they can go before they stop fitting? That way you'll have close level components early on (which is fitting and not a huge issue IMO), but later on you get more and more flexible. Of course flexibility would be expensive and rare... also, regardless of the individual components they'd all have to be within their flexibility range of the average level of the full item, that average level being rounded up to the nearest whole number.

Whatever the solution is, it needs to be easy for the player to understand. Right now, it is easy to convey to the player that you can only combine parts up to 1 level apart. If I introduce "relative" stats based on level differences or "compatibility" stats... it needs to be an easy concept to grasp.

Another idea, would be to keep level limitations the same, but have stations stock a few parts at the level of the weapon you already have? Particularly parts that you'd need to complete an item in your inventory...?

I think the upgrade idea might solve this. You can pay a large sum of money to upgrade any weapon part and increase the level and stats slightly. You would only be able to do this upgrade a few times (maybe 5?). This would allow player to change the level of their favorite items so they can use them for a while longer, without letting them keep it forever and keeping it expensive so they won't just do it with everything.

The upgrade idea is pretty good... say, right click a part at a workbench to be presented with an option to upgrade it to the current area's level for a hefty price. However, in the interest of making changes more incremental (don't want to make a big change all at once & then scramble to plug exploits), I'd probably limit it to one upgrade per part.

That idea about having workstations dynamically offer parts you might like based on your inventory... well, that would be the definition of "awesome" would it not? lol

I think that any solution could work here, it's just that the RNG is a bit unforgiving when you're looking for a specific piece of kit. I don't know how many times I've been looking for a barrel for my gun and got whole stations of melee stuff and ammo... once I even got 3 (!) body components but not a single barrel (not even as part of a complete gun), each of which was as good as the current body that I was using.

Of course it's not that bad all the time, but it can be a major turn off for some players. Look at FTL, many many pages of their Steam store comments and forums are filled with "too random, I hate this game and I'm telling my friends not to buy it" just because that player couldn't find a specific weapon they wanted. Of course there is a lot to be said about making do with what you have, that's part of the fun here; however some people can't wait and these people need to be catered for too. Unfortunately, they tend to be the most vocal complainers as well as the least patient gamers...

That idea about having workstations dynamically offer parts you might like based on your inventory... well, that would be the definition of "awesome" would it not? lol

This solution would be easier to implement & probably less "game altering" than the upgrade feature. People may not need to upgrade if they can just find the parts they want easier. I may make like, say, 30% of a stations loadout be parts that you can actually put on incomplete items in your inventory.

IMO, environments that adapt to the player as well as vice-versa always turn out better than simple "fit into the existing world" stlye games.

Would it be possible to apply the same kind of filtering to loot drops, to increase the chances of getting useful loot from high level enemies? Even if it were only say 50% chance to get somethign useful and anotehr 30% to get something random, of course 'useful' doesn't necessarily mean you'll actually use it...

That would make the game a lot more fun on the 3rd-4th passes IMO, and that's usually when people make a decision about the game's replay value. The first time it's too amazing to comprehend, the second and third you're trying to actually understand it... the 'hook' mechanics like crafting and all the other procedurally generated goodness will have the most wow factor in these early playthroughs

Yeah, I could make it do that on loot drops, too. I could even have health & energy drop more often if you are low... but I may not want to do that since it'd discourage buying those consumables

I constantly need to sell the massive amounts of health and energy consumables that drop and I have yet to buy a single one. You may want to tone those down a little.

Agreed - it's very easy to get health and energy ATM. It'd probably be better to make ammo the 'useless' common drop, since it's cheap anyway and a realistic thing for most bots to have anyway.