Post news RSS Happy Emperor's Day!

Venerate the Immortal Emperor today. By playing His games.

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I hope you are all relaxing, eating cookies and purging heretics, here on His Glorious Day.

But is there a better way to celebrate Him than by entering His universe once again?

The new version features:

Restored content that was cut from the original, including objectives, dialogue and events.

Re-balanced difficulty on certain missions.

Bug fixes.

And - perhaps most importantly - Crull won't yell about the eldar every single time they "DARE attack his base".


Have fun.

Comments
Emperors_Fist
Emperors_Fist

Neat! Happy Emperor's day!

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AwesomeStrong
AwesomeStrong

Great stuff, but still some bugs alas! :) I wanted to finish (with the new Orks) mission 11 - problem is I think "sg_gabriel" is never created so I don't think I ever got him down - or I did once but it bugged out. Worth checking? (also man the level is hard! the AI is relentless against the Eldar and then come for me with a full army, fun stuff).

Also any list of other cut additions to other missions? I'll bug hunt some more, brings out my old SCAR coding...I do know the relentless AI is a bit of a pain on some levels, masses an army (but can't attack) making it hard to progress. Wonder if some squad capping might help...

Might also be fun to alter the difficulty to take into account the hardest/easiest settings for the Lorn campaign, that one was always set AI (in all missions I think) so making it a little tougher on Hardest might be neat given HP doesn't increase. Not sure how Difficulty_Get() works with Easiest and Hardest mind you...most of the .scar files reference constants with equal signs. Mmm.

Will poke around a bit more and maybe try a few more missions. Good to say all the Imperial campaign on Lorn worked first try, need to do the Chaos side :)

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Spienold Author
Spienold

Yeah, that's an oversight on my part. I just re-enabled the invulnerability script assuming Relic would have used the same group name as they do for the respawn script. I still managed to kill the daemon, somehow, but I used my health cheat at the time, so maybe that affected it. It's an easy fix, though.

Mission 3 is the most changed, followed by 1, 2, 4 and 11. All the missions got changes like a standardised objective system and some improved functions here and there, but these are mostly for my own benefit as a coder and shouldn't be noticeable in game.

I have a new function to get the level difficulty from the AI, but it's not implemented yet. I haven't decided how I want to scale the difficulty yet (I don't think changing unit stats is a good way to set the difficulty in a strategy game, but I can re-add this if people want it). But I have removed all scripts to set the AI, so it should automatically be whatever is set in the skirmish launcher.

Thank you for your help.

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AwesomeStrong
AwesomeStrong

Awesome will look through those ones and play some more :) one other error I noticed was some "string xx missing" on the NIS intel events for Toth around the demon. It seems to happen early enough since, poor idiot she is, the Farseer just goes and tries to solo the demon early on triggring a ton of intel about him. Might need to lock down the Eldar attacking routines for a few minutes at least (or the Farseer in a squad group to stop her wandering too early).

Yeah that SG group is set in the mission editor (one reason I suspect from WA onwards it switches to mostly creating them in the scar file with markers).

I'll see what else I can see. For the AI - there are a few things that could be done, possibly enabling and disabling certain units and setting the population limits, some levels could do with more AI bases, some could do with triggers that auto-create units to attack (which do properly attack and are not under the AI's influence) similar to most WA levels.

The odd thing about how it is currently is that the default AI in original DOW (since WA barely uses the AI, actually not sure it ever does...) is much more static and so now the AI more effectively - as it should - creates a ton of units really quickly (due to the resources given) and then pounds you into submission as soon as the "don't attack" AI event is removed. You see this on most default levels where 2 predators, 3 dreads and a full complements of heavy infantry all sit outside the players base making it a slog to get across the map (Since they constantly re-create it). Mainly tested this on the Chapel level with the assault troop jump acrosses. Man that level was tough.

Other options:
* Limit the AI buildings - newer AI builds a lot more production so gets a massive army that much quicker which I think the original AI does not (or was limited with)
* Add more players with less pop cap or different unit priorities or restrictions (one doing heavy infantry, one doing tanks and melee, etc.) - can even make pop cap go up over the course of the game
* Add in champion units from the expansions on harder difficulties
* Restrict technology and upgrades in easier difficulties (eg; plasma weapons, squad champions).
* Restrict resources in easier difficulties (they build less units at the start - but over time get more due to the captured points they usually have anyway).
* Lock more squads that are placed at the start of the game so they act as defensive units - I think you've standardised and removed some of these making it harder (example; the horrors and melee units on the ms11 final mission no longer are locked I think? so a huge mass of them kill the eldar early on since the AI pulls them back if they get to their markers).

Man if I had more time I'd totally rework some missions to be more inventive too. Have an AI ally work the base while you do side objectives or place a marker for where they should attack (ala eldar mission 5 of WA), or provide defences so you don't have to hassle around a full army on defences and offences (most DOW missions have 2+ enemies which mean they double your squad count at best :( ).

One last missing content thing - although I don't particularly like it myself - was I think the chapel level had Brom actually be drawn to Chaos thus explaining his absence in the final levels. I'm sure there is some voice chat to that effect and his presence is commented out in the code (or was removed entirely). If you re-add him it'd be cool to see some Leman Russ tanks too :) although frankly I'd prefer he still be good :)

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Spienold Author
Spienold

Thanks for the tips.
I plan on removing the pre-spawned units entirely and spawn them through script instead. That way they can change based on difficulty, so that those nasty possessed marines, for instance, only spawn on hard, while being replaced with cultists and regular chaos marines on easy and medium respectively.

There is, unfortunately, no dialogue referencing Brom turning; the only references I have found, are an actor called EvilBrom and a line in the mission 10 NIS where Sindri talks about Brom and the orks being arrogant. The actual sound file, however, only mentions the orks.
I could of course still add him, but it would be a little odd for no one to mention him being evil. Alternatively, I can add him on the next level - still as a good guy - since you get guardsmen and Leman Russ tanks there anyway.

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AwesomeStrong
AwesomeStrong

Ahh, takes me back - might be just those references I saw :) shame no voice lines mention his fate though :(

Yeah is a little odd how you get them a mission after their betrayal. The plot of DOW1 is a bit all over the place, a little rushed in design, compared to WA and onwards. :)

Spawning instead of fixed ones would help so much (esp. locking down units), with the advanced map editor I've had a look and it looks like it loads them fine for adding more markers, changing/removing units and squad groups.

I wonder if as a step on from this you'd take on converting all the DC and Soulstorm "big missions" (the strongholds mainly) into the new formats. Some were quite inventive in DC (less so in Soulstorm...) including the IG "titan cannon alley", moon base (although not Tau specific usually had them), underground Necron tomes...

Problem with the DC/Soulstorm ones is a bit more effort covering the races - but at least they cater to (most) player choices - and you can default them to something else anyway if it is less effort (eg; make a "DC - Space Marine Stronhold - Imperial Guard Attackers" which force IG). Not sure how you'd deal with all the usual upgrades players would get (the free mission start ones or upgraded commander) but there is an easy way to approximate it - and simply give them more on easier difficulties anyway, heh.

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Spienold Author
Spienold

Only some guardsmen betrayed you, while others remain loyal. I think you get them in mission 9 because Gabriel and Toth have reconciled and Toth had previously taken command of the guardsmen.

As for the strongholds, this might be of interest:
Moddb.com
I don't know what I can do that hasn't already been done here.

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AwesomeStrong
AwesomeStrong

Neat sorry didn't notice that one! Will try it out :)

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AwesomeStrong
AwesomeStrong

Error on Lorn Eldar mission 5: ALERT: Duplicate rule Rule_TrackLastMonolith1 added. This is not allowed. Line 1121 (Rule_Necron_MonolithDeadCount). Might be originally a Relic bug or a bug caused by updates to SCAR - but from what I can read when g_m 3 can run multiple times thus Rule_AddInterval is added multiple times. A check for a new variable called something like "g_lastmonolithtrackingrule" and checks against that might fix it.

Easy to do - just destroy 3 (or 4?) monoliths in the final mission.

Also for some reason the Orks don't build so never send anything, not sure why since the Chaos do...may be the AI is bugged (the contructors don't build the HQs - possibly place them as a full unit instead?)

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Spienold Author
Spienold

The HQs should be spawned, but there were numerous instances where they fail to do so because the marker is too close to impassable terrain, so it doesn't surprise me to find more. It is easy to fix, though. Likewise for the duplicate rule, though I have no idea why this is a problem now and not in the last version, because I haven't done much with this mission.

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AwesomeStrong
AwesomeStrong

Never played the last version on this mission specifically, only did the IG (go humans!) which worked fine.

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AwesomeStrong
AwesomeStrong

Hope this is constructive! SM missions tested...on hard for all (so no funky Hardest stuff happening but a decent level of intellgience).

Mission 1: Only one oddity (apart from being reminded about the basics... so much intel!) is that once you fail to rescue one imperial guard squads, the rest...stay invulnerable. Odd since it should only fail if all the things are at least activated once but fail if at least one died (not that failing it affects anything). I don't recall this being the case in the original game. Source of the issue stems from Rule_Objective_S_Guard() which removes the Rule_ConflictCheck() rule being run that removes the invulnerability.

Mission 2 works fine enough, not too hard but it's a basic map. Not sure why you gain control of the IG - should really stay on the IG side so you don't waste resources reinforcing them (or perhaps you can technically save them?). The Nobz "they detect us wait" doesn't show the entire area and the towers see you - but are easily run past (remove the towers?). The Sluggas who spawn guarding the pump station seem to not attack - a cursory glance suggest the "Hold ground" it stopping them doing anything even if they stand on the ramp (their weapons are too short a range to shoot back). Perhaps have a Killa Kan actually attack later might make the mission more interesting once missile launchers are acquired (the Ork AI holds back its forces, maybe I didn't wait long enough, at the last land bridge - nice big fight there!) or the normal Ork AI attack en-masse after a while might be good.

Few more bugs on MS03:
* AI can build killa kans, trakks and looted tanks from the start. A surprising 3-4 minute attack wiped everything I had out - this was because the generic restrictions unlock it for the mission and you never restrict it. I suspect removing the previously used Rule_TrackPlayer2Limits has broken this. This also restricted the amount of the units that were created instead of 4 killa kans wiping me out (which would happen - but might be the intent? :) ).

* Even restricting them by editing the scar file - due to the sheer upgrades + AI building tons of units (the resources it has are phenomenal even without the +10 every so often) it wipes me pretty hard after a few minutes. See the mass with FOW_RevealAll - might be worth putting an AI restriction on base attacks until the machine cult is found...? (so they're more defensive) or until the player moves forwards (ie; wait until an ork building is destroyed which "riles them"). Can add some more manual attack groups to compensate perhaps? Or some heavy bolter turrets on the left?

* Not sure the trukk attacks work - hard to tell (at least nothing was ever unloaded even if I let one through), I think the AI takes over the unit so it interrupts what it is doing (and then just roams with it). Worth turning the AI off for that player? (I love the idea though!).

Mission 4: If the stormtroops at the beginning with the whirlwinds are new, neato, if not they surprised me :)

Issues: The orks are massively overwhelming (trakks, killa kans, even tanks, nobz, lots of sluggas) but don't attack your base but block the way up (the mission might end in like 3 minutes otherwise once the base is built). With so little income this is obviously not the how the original worked - likely a lot less units were produced from the first and second bases at least until the mid way point. It's a massive slog over a long piece of terribly laid out terrain, worth reducing the early game presence hugely - even going so far as to disable the AI (which as noted before seems much more aggressive and competent in DC/SS which is used for all their campaign maps...wonder if it cheats on Hard too - in those cases it is fine to be tougher since it's at a disadvantage but on this mission they have literally every Ork building, technology, upgrade and unit except squiggoth) until you make it near the base.

I think on this mission (and others) at least one of the AI's was set to a much easier difficulty - like Easy or Easiest - lowering their income, AI and some other variables that the AI uses to make it doable (if there are no further restrictions in the original SCAR files this makes the most sense). Similar to how Eldar always used the Easiest AI in the final MS11 (so they didn't complete the map for you!).

Stopped at Mission 4 because I dare not cross the Eldar's path, yet...

General issues: Isador uses his evil skin all the time (might be unfixable?) and his and Toth's Smite animation doesn't show up properly (not sure if the ability does anything). Also there is a random map still available in the skirmish list - I think one included in a not-long-ago-patch, I think 6p_Temple_Cyrene which I am pretty sure I didn't manually install.

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Spienold Author
Spienold

Mission 2 doesn't actually use AI; only spawned attack waves, but I might change this. Killa kans are supposed to spawn and attack you occasionally, but not with every wave.
Mission 3 is supposed to start with the player on the defensive, but I'll tone the orks down a little.
I can delay the activation of the second ork AI on mission 4 until the first one is taken out or the player gets close to the main base.

The skin issue is due to a change in the default colour scheme. It might be possible to fix. Not sure about the smite thing.
I'll fix the other bugs; thanks for finding them.

Oh, and good luck with the eldar rangers.

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AwesomeStrong
AwesomeStrong

Okay Mission 4 was fine except for the opening cutscene - the scouts didn't die (or get attacked) since they are always on invisible - possibly position a detector there to alleviate this. Mission is scripted, no rangers though? (or did I just kill them too quickly - one detector should be enough). Was fine - a bit of a slog as per the original mission especially at the end. I remembered to gear up on dreads before going in at least.

Mission 5 was a wipe again - the AI has so many resources (again on hard) they bring in 3+ dreads, a full complement of everything else (including harlequins which was a ...nice... surprise) as soon as the Imperial Guard arrive. They wipe me and the IG out right away (I barely have got Monastery upgrade so have 0 Anti Tank - they bring Fire Guardians to destroy my single dread and three squads). Fun times.

I'd put up a better fight later on - possibly pop or technology cap the Eldar for a while or do some non-AI led assaults and keep the AI on the defensive. It's possibly made worse by the fact as a player I'm handicapped from the start having to build a base - the sheer amount of time from the opening cutscene to the time I have the base up and Monastry added (for vehicles) means they've had 5-10 minutes of resource time - thousands!

It was fun seeing them also wipe out the Orks though (who are a bit buggy - noted that in the original campaign, if one Ork gets stuck it will never spawn any more) and similar to parts of WA I wish the designers of the original game did a lot more AI-versus-AI fights we could watch.

I'll try the other missions some other time. Sorry this all looks like balance reports but mainly I am saying when I am wiped in the first 5 minutes :) yes I could probably get by if I lowered the difficulty to Easiest :) :)

BTW: Thoroughly enjoying it still even if I am wiped. Nostalgia but also I really enjoyed the base building / unit positioning / weapon upgrading DOW1 had which 2 and now 3 didn't/won't have.

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Spienold Author
Spienold

Don't be sorry! It's very useful to hear what others think, because I never know whether the problems I have are representative or whether I'm just a bad player. I also miss some issues a regular player would get because I know exactly what's supposed to happen in each mission and what to do.
So I'm grateful for these reports. I also invite anyone else who reads this to share their experiences. It doesn't have to be as detailed; any little hint helps.

I will definitely rebalance the difficulty for all missions when you have finished this report, though the first patch will probably be a small one to fix the actual bugs you find.

I'm also working on a script that disables infiltration during cutscenes, so the scouts can be killed appropriately, and I hope to be able to change infiltration so it turns off when in combat. This should make scouts less cheesy when the enemy has no detectors, and make rangers slightly less painful, since you'll at least be able to see them when they instabreak your morale and snipe your entire base.
No rangers on mission 5, by the way, except in the cutscene. It is level 6 and 7 that let you enjoy them in all their overpowered glory.

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AwesomeStrong
AwesomeStrong

Wait replace mission 4 with 5 (first Eldar mission) and 5 with 6 (mission with Orks constantly attacking/IG appearing), keep getting numbers confused :)

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AwesomeStrong
AwesomeStrong

Okay mission 7 (I still can't complete 6) is okay - except the commander repeats "The Avatar Is Retreating!" an awful lot. On hard worked fine - a bit of a slog (if you rework the map a bit it might work a lot better) and since it's the final Eldar mission its surprising actually they only use dreadnaughts and their lower infantry mixed in with a seer council. No prism tanks. I liked the base at the end - very tough to crack.

I've explained mission 8 is a slog / near impossible against 2 AI Chaos enemies unless you just run past them to defeat the doors, possibly needs more static unit usage and lower caps on both.

I'll try mission 9 which I recall was a lot more fixed squads (and you get a second base) sometime soon I hope.

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AwesomeStrong
AwesomeStrong

I finally Mission 8 - rushed it and I got through before they built up too fast. I guess the balance on that one is immediately securing your second base not securing all the points on the west. Easier by far then - or perhaps the AI randomly decided to build up properly - they attacked my base and almost wiped me before I got dreads out though. This was even skipping the cutscene too (not sure if resources build up during cutscenes or not though).

I'll go back to 7 at some point.

Mission 9 was fun - easy though - terminators are usually limited to 1 of each, but I had 4 squads of normal, 1 assault and 1 ordeo mallus guys :) bit of a cake walk since the AI never re-captured points I left idle, but did send some guys to stand at them for some reason. Possibly on harder difficulties (or in general)

Oddly it was on hard - SetDifficultyLevel() not working correctly perhaps? I'm not sure what it returns in skirmish games but it seems to give me "easy" resources and potentially I guess easy attacks (Rule_ImplementAggressionLevel1 etc.) - never saw any defilers either - Rule_RelicArtillery() not working?

Possibly meant that the aggression rules also do not run correctly too, and the AI might take control of too many things. This time oddly the AI might have too few resources - no outside points are captured (or ever are even after start of the game) so only 4 relics income + 1 point in the south is a bit lame.

Possible other improvements: make the south base a smaller but more basic 2nd AI which has a limited set of buildings/units to build in smaller numbers but acts as a usual AI and captures things, and if the relics start to be captured is "unlocked" to allow builds of tougher units.

Have a 3rd chaos AI do all the static stuff - Lord Bale, aggressive automatic squads, etc. but doesn't need to capture.

Have the main AI defend the points it has and give it free resources, but don't let it attack until the relics are starting to be captured - or leave it as is but give it more resources or starting points captured (even the entire maps worth) but don't let it re-capture. Not sure it ever got builders either to actually build up its base.

Note: the random AI reinforcements on base defence (and the troops the AI at the base hadn't ever used) were a bit of a pain to attack but they were wholly infantry for some reason.

These are a lot of changes though - fixing the difficulty/defiler/attack rules might make it just work as intended and not be too bad.

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Spienold Author
Spienold

The SetDifficultyLevel() seems to default to easy if it is not set properly. It should work better once I have implemented getting the difficulty from the AI setting instead of being set in the campaign menu (which isn't available when running the maps from the skirmish menu).
The multiple terminator squads are a relic from vanilla, where you could build as many as your pop supported, but you are right that there are too many of them. I'll probably change it to one terminator squad and one assault terminator squad instead.
I haven't figured out why the defilers don't show up, but if I can't get it to work, I'll just spawn some around the relics instead.
Not sure why the AI didn't cap points; they did when I played it. I'll look into it, though.

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AwesomeStrong
AwesomeStrong

Okay I have been destroyed by 3 AI's on hard on mission 10 :) they just build up everything (it looks like all the tech is unlocked?) and with a bloodthirster to boot :) preds, defilers, lots of troops.

I suspect the game set different restrictions and levels of AI for each enemy - at least different preferences - or if not this was a lot easier the first time round :) (possibly with multiple terminator squads, hah!).

May be worth balancing the AI sides a little (set different preferences, restrict at least Isador's forces from ever attacking), although again could be a fluke, might try again. Due to the beefed up AI in later games for the more skirmish-like campaign map I also don't doubt the AI is "better" (it rushes all at once together).

Mission 11 as always is a little the same - the enemy while I'm dealing with random stuff (and lack of resources/base research) they build up enough to dominate.

There is an intel event from Toth that links to an invalid string, something about the demon part way through.

The Orks rules are broken (I changed the timing to be 100 seconds to test) - I think Rule_GenOrkForce() doesn't properly work in any case as written (it adds units to the squad group from the first creation, which then blocks the rule from doing any more, it finishes and then stops with just grots), and besides, that side of the map has g_Player4's base, which by the point they spawn (600 seconds in) the meagre grots that spawn just sit there and die. Even a larger force would get stuck or die there.

Possibly easier to remove (edit the map using advanced map editor) and bin that extra Chaos base replacing it with an Ork one, or move it, have the Orks start on the map from the beginning and simply have the intel event and objective revealed when they are seen by the player.

To make it a bit more interesting having a new set of markers for defensive Sindri units along with a static Ork AI which just sends attack waves (as per missions before) against both Chaos and Eldar and Space Marine might be good. Even more fun would be to reveal the Chaos defensive line and see the Orks smash into it constantly similar to Winter Assault. Whaagghh! Bit more effort to do and balance though for sure.

The possessed space marines at the start are also buggy - one reason is (For whatever reason) Relic never added the 3rd into the locked squad group on the map (it's the left most squad) so that one runs around a lot, and the top most of the three is never in range of enemies immediately so just stands there until provoked.

Not sure if the horrors work right either, although at least only one set can be on the map at once so it doesn't affect much.

A thought also occurs - I presume usually these missions the AI starts with (in the normal campaign) 0 starting resource - since it's skirmish now the AI gets some to start with, accelerating their growth significantly.

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Spienold Author
Spienold

I think the best way to fix the AI issues is to set their infantry/vehicle cap top 5/0 at the beginning, so they can't overwhelm you at the start, and then give them higher caps as time passes. If there are multiple enemies, their combined caps should be equal to max caps for one team, so you don't die to overwhelming numbers, and the surviving teams can get more as you eliminate opponents, so they don't get too little in the end. I think this should solve the problems for all the missions (though mission 4 might need extra hard caps on tanks and nobz, because they're a tier higher than what the player gets to deal with them).

My plan was that the orks would destroy that chaos base if the player hadn't already done so, but apparently it was too much for the poor lil' boyz. I agree that they should just be there from the start.
I like the idea of defensive lines. I'll have to play around a little and see how the ork AI behaves on that map and whether it needs to be scripted.

I'm going to remove the possessed marines, so anything wrong with them should automatically be fixed. I'll look into the horrors, though.

You're right that the AI starts with default skirmish resources unless it's overwritten in the script. I'm not sure if the resources will be an issue with limited pop caps, but I can set it in each mission just to be safe.

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