On page 59, the manual says this about fear:
Units in a monster’s Fear area of effect get their morale temporarily lowered and their entire squad must take a morale check against the monster’s Fear, or rout. The basic Fear effect requires a check against 10. Unlike Awe, the bonus to Fear indicates the additional area of effect, not the Fear strength. So a Fear +4 monster has normal Fear that radiates to 4 additional squares. The Fear strength itself is increased for every full +5 Fear, so a Fear +10 unit would radiate to ten additional squares, and force a morale check against 12. The base area of effect (Fear +0) is 6 squares.
So...
1. How much is morale lowered for units in a monster's Fear area of effect?
2. How long is "temporarily"?
3. Where is the area of effect?
4. When is this rule applied? (Once per turn, once per fear-causing monster, once per affected unit, ...?)
On page 92, the manual explains conditions under which a squad must make a morale check against 13:
A squad will check morale if... The squad is near a monster causing Fear (e.g. an Abomination)
5. Are the page 59 and page 92 checks meant to be the same thing? If so, then what is the correct number rolled against -- 13 or 10 + floor(Fear/5)? If not, then is it correct to interpret this as saying the page 92 morale check occurs in addition to the page 59 morale check(s) whenever fear-causing monsters are present?
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As far as I know, Fear is a number of square in which ennemy unit get a moral malus, cumulative everyturn. If multiples fear aura overlap, the moral will lower even more quickly.
Fear don't create morale check AFAIK. You need something to force a moral check, like beating enough of the unit.
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Ohlmann wrote: As far as I know, Fear is a number of square in which ennemy unit get a moral malus, cumulative everyturn. If multiples fear aura overlap, the moral will lower even more quickly.
Fear don't create morale check AFAIK. You need something to force a moral check, like beating enough of the unit.
The manual says exactly what he quoted, though - it does say fear BY ITSELF can force a rout. If that is now not true, then that section of the manual should be rewritten.
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Bwaha wrote:
SixHereEightThere wrote: If it is still possible to expand with a naked Cyclops SC in Dom4 then Fear will likely be working the same as in Dom3 because it would be all but impossible to expand in that case without Fear doing all the work. (so working as Sombledon says)
Bwaha wrote: If you want a truly nasty SC try a Gorgon with 2A for mistform. Give her a poison stick and watch entire armies evaporate...
The poison mixed with her fear makes her totally lethal...
And what exactly does this have to do with the OP or the discussion in this thread? Nothing. Please stop posting meaningless O/T stuff.
Fear and a dot effect is relevant to the op. The dot makes the fear more effective... You might try playing the game a few times before posting drivel...
The OP asked for clarification how fear worked. He/She did not ask for an example of "a truly nasty SC" or ask if A2 would be useful on a SC, or ask for any of the information you posted. (OP posted 5 questions, your post answered none of those)
Edited by: SixHereEightThere
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This may not clarify anything, but here is a digest I prepared of what we know about fear in Dominions.
A. Fear and its Meanings
In Dominions, "Fear" shows up in many contexts. It may refer to 1) the "Fear Roll" in a Morale Check; 2) a "Fear Attack"; 3) the "Fear" unit attribute; 4) the effect of spells like Frighten and Terror; or 5) the effect of some magic items. Below, I consider each in turn:
1. The "Fear Roll"
- Various decisions in the game are decided with a "Morale Check." By definition, a Morale Check involves a "Morale Roll" and a "Fear Roll" (Manual 4.04b, p. 92). In a Fear Roll, "Fear" is just a label; it bears no relation to any other use of the term. As the manual says, "Although it is called the 'Fear Roll,' it applied to anything that checks morale, not just fear" (sic) (Manual 4.04b, p. 92).
2. A "Fear Attack"
- A "Fear Attack" is a battlefield attack whose effects are somewhat unknown, but are thought to include reduction of morale, harder Squad Morale Checks, and forced Squad Morale Checks.
- The manual uses the term "Fear Attack" in the grimoire to refer to the game concepts introduced on pages 59 and 92 (Manual 4.04b). Elsewhere in the manual and on the forums, these concepts are called "Fear," "Fear Effects," and "Fear Aura." I believe "Fear Attack" is the least ambiguous of the terms, so it is the one I've chosen to use here.
- Every Fear Attack has a "Power" associated with it, expressed in the manual as "Fear +X" where X is the Power. It isn't called "Power" anywhere in the manual, but I need to call it something, and the manual explicitly uses the term "Strength" to mean something else.
- Fear Attacks are believed to lower morale.
- According to the manual, "Units in a monster's Fear area of effect get their morale temporarily lowered" (Manual 4.04b, p. 59).
- It seems that this is not correct for units with morale of 30 or higher. For Dominions 3, krpeters claims to have "confirmed that the fear effect does *not* reduce the morale of a pretender" (krpeters). Also for Dominions 3, Max conducted an experiment which seems to show that morale 30 units do not lose morale (MaxWilson).
- There are very few clues to quantify a Fear Attack's effect on morale. For Dominions 3, Baalz speculated that the morale reduction may depend on the Fear Attack's Power. As he put it, "anecdotally, units within the fear aura have their morale 'damaged' at a level corresponding to the fear aura with random variation" (Baalz). Also in Dominions 3, Hrum made an educated guess that the effect of "a Prince of Death with significant fear" would "usually be in the realm of -5 to morale..?" In that same post, Hrum described a battle in which a Rudra with Fear (8) caused morale to drop by 5 points in one turn for several C'tis militia (Hrum). Other than these anecdotes, there hasn't been much shared on the forums to help us understand exactly how much morale gets lowered by fear.
- There may be no way to resist the morale reduction of a fear attack (except as discussed above by units which are immune). This assertion comes from Sombre who, speaking of Dominions 3, says "the reduction to morale apparently cannot be resisted" (Sombre).
- Fear Attacks seem to have a cumulative effect on morale. The effect is cumulative in the sense that multiple Fear Attacks in the same turn have a pile-on effect -- "each block gets hit by multiple fear auras" (Baalz). It is also cumulative in the sense that Fear Attacks applied turn after turn lead to progressively lower morale scores -- "This effect is cumulative over at least 3 rounds of exposure" (JimMorrison).
- Fear Attacks cause, as the manual says, only temporary reductions in morale. Morale is fully restored when the battle is over. In addition, there seem to be mechanisms that restore morale during battle. These are discussed below under "Factors Which Change Morale During Combat." It seems most appropriate to regard morale reductions as penalties that don't expire, per se, during a battle, but which might be undone by effects that raise morale during the battle.
- Fear Attacks can cause morale to become negative -- "... my Morale 25 Devata had his Morale swiftly reduced to negative 9 by a pack of ghosts" (krpeters)
- When a Fear Attack reduces morale, it is not a conditional reduction relevant only to the Squad Morale Check; rather, morale is reduced for all purposes. Notable implications are: units with reduced morale are less likely to hit units with Awe; and units with reduced morale are more likely to be repelled by defenders with longer weapons.
- A Fear Attack may also make Squad Morale Checks harder to pass for all squads with members affected by the attack.
- The effect on Squad Morale Checks is described in the manual in a way that can be paraphrased as follows: For every 5 points of Fear Attack Power, an additional 1 point is added to the Fear Roll for the victims' Squad Morale Checks (Manual 4.04b, p. 59).
- Presumably, this effect of a Fear Attack does not persist beyond one turn. In other words, a Squad Morale Check is affected every turn in which a Fear Attack takes place against the squad, and is unaffected in any turn when no Fear Attack takes place against the squad. This is not explicitly stated in the manual, but seems like a logical assumption.
- Back in Dominions 3, Kristoffer warned that "Moral loss might have replaced the fear bonus" (sic) (Kristoffer O), suggesting that this particular effect of Fear Attacks may no longer exist.
- Fear Attacks may also force Squad Morale Checks.
- The manual claims that "A squad will check morale if... The squad is near a monster causing Fear." It will also check morale if "The squad has been subjected to a spell causing Fear" (Manual 4.04b, p. 92). These claims suggest that Fear Attacks force Squad Morale Checks when such checks would otherwise not occur.
- Ohlmann questions this effect. He says: "I know that the manual say that fear can force a rout. AFAIK it's false" (Ohlmann).
3. The "Fear" unit attribute
- Units may have an attribute called "Fear" with an associated score which the manual also calls "Fear." To keep my terminology unambiguous, I'm calling this score the "Fear Attribute Score" (or simply the "Attribute Score"). The Fear Attribute Score is shown in-game as "Fear (X)."
- The Fear attribute causes an automatic Fear Attack every turn, with a Power equal to the Attribute Score and an area of effect derived from that score.
- The area-of-effect of Fear Attacks caused by the Fear attribute is 6+X squares near the unit possessing the attribute, where X is the Attribute Score (Manual 4.04b, p. 59). Kristoffer has explained that this area includes "random squares close to the fear inspiring one, not necessarily the squares surrounding him" (Kristoffer O).
- It is unclear whether or not friendly units may be included in the area-of-effect of Fear Attacks caused by the Fear attribute. One would think not, but the manual doesn't make it clear. Furthermore, the manual does say "Fear can affect friendly units" when describing the Terror spell (Manual 4.04b, p. 371).
- When a commander with no fear attribute is given one or more fear-granting magic items, they gain the Fear attribute and an Attribute Score equal to the sum of the magic item score boosts. This is a departure from Dominions 3 where, as Endoperez said, "Fear starts from Fear -5" (Endoperez).
4. Spells
- The spells Frighten, Terror, Wailing Winds, Panic, Agony, and Tune of Fear all cause Fear Attacks of varying Power, location, and area of effect.
- These spells are described in the manual with "Fear +X attack," where X is the Power of the Fear Attack they cause.
- While it is hard to quibble with flavor text, Agony's in-game spell description has a truth-in-advertising problem when it says "Being struck by this pain... has a truly devastating effect on morale." According to the manual, Agony inflicts a "Fear +0 attack" (Manual 4.04b, p. 376). Experience suggests that a Fear Attack of Power 0 is not sufficient to cause true devastation to morale.
5. Magic Items
- Some magic items are labeled with a fear score, such as "Fear 5" (Manual 4.04b). These items grant the Fear attribute to their wielders and boost the wielders' Fear Attribute Score by the amount indicated.
- Judging from their descriptions in the manual, the Rat Tail and the Flailing Hands do not boost the Fear attributes of their wielders, but instead cause Fear Attacks of their own. The Rat Tail is particularly confusing, since it is claimed to cause "Greater Fear," something completely undefined in the manual (Manual 4.04b, pp. 385, 387).
B. Factors Which Change Morale During Combat
Morale is not static during a battle. It may increase and decrease. Since Fear Attacks operate by affecting morale during combat, it is necessary to understand other factors that change morale during combat if one wants a clear picture of how fear affects gameplay. Below are notes on the factors that change morale during combat.
- As discussed above, Fear Attacks reduce morale during combat.
- Absent a Fear Attack, it isn't clear whether morale ever diminishes during battle. Discussing Dominions 3, Max asserts that "Fear is the ONLY thing which causes deterioration of Morale scores" (MaxWilson). That seems right, but is unconfirmed.
- A portion of lost morale may recover, naturally, every turn. Speaking of Dominions 3, Kristoffer says "units regain morale every turn" (Kristoffer O). He goes on to speculate that perhaps "Morale loss (and gain from standards) gets halved each round" (Kristoffer O). This implies that there must be two morale scores for each unit -- the current morale score, and the "base" morale score toward which the current score returns.
- In addition to this natural recovery of lost morale, standards are believed to help units recover lost morale. There is little information about what standards actually do, but some players hypothesize similarities to the fear mechanics. In the Dominions 3 forum, thejeff said "Standards... continually boost morale up to base + their bonus. Working much like fear, but in the other direction" (thejeff). Also in Dominions 3, Sombre asserted that a "standard is basically fear in reverse" (Sombre). Sombre's comment goes on to reference a supposedly relevant section of the Dominions 3 manual, which I don't have. The Dominions 4 manual simply says "The standard ability increases the morale of the entire squad it is in", which leaves much room for interpretation (Manual 4.04b, p. 60).
- The spells Sermon of Courage and Fanaticism claim to give "+2 Morale" (Manual 4.04b, p. 377). Blessings can also boost the morale of sacred units. In each case, it is unclear whether the result is an adjustment to the current morale score, the base morale score, or both.
- Kristoffer has speculated that, back in Dominions 3, "Morale regain will only affect those not in melee" (Kristoffer O). Max disputes this -- "It turns out that morale regain can affect those in melee after all" (MaxWilson).
C. The Squad Morale Check
Fear operates by affecting morale and possibly Squad Morale Checks. As discussed above, some of the payout for using Fear Attacks comes during the battle when frightened units are unable to attack awesome units or units which repel them. However, a big part of the payout comes when enemy squads fail their Squad Morale Check and rout. In order to understand this aspect of fear, it is necessary to look more closely at Squad Morale Checks. Here are some notes on the uncertainties that still exist in the mechanics of Squad Morale Checks:
- Every turn, each squad is subject to one Morale Check, and only one (Kristoffer O), if any of several conditions exists for that squad. These conditions are documented on page 92 of the manual and are not much in dispute (with the notable exception of Fear Attacks, as discussed above).
- The Squad Morale Check involves a DRN roll against some number, subject to several modifications. It isn't clear whether that number is 10 (Manual 4.04b, p 59) or 13 (Manual 4.04b, p. 92).
- For a Squad Morale Check, it isn't clear whether a DRN tie indicates "fight" or "flee". Page 92 asserts the former, but the example on page 9 illustrates the latter (Manual 4.04b).
- The manual states that "Each squad has a morale level, which is the average of all the morale ratings of the members of the squad" (Manual 4.04b, p. 92). However, this may not be correct. Discussing Dominions 3, Baalz claims that "berserking and mindless units don't bump up the morale of other units in their squad" (Baalz), which seems to imply that those units don't contribute to the average.
- The manual states that "A squad which fails its Morale Check routs" and this "happens to the entire squad" (Manual 4.04b, p 92). However, it has been said in the Dominions 3 forum that some units do not rout (Micah). Presuming that routable units can be mixed with unroutable units on the same squad, this means that a rout cannot, in fact, happen to the entire squad. Judging from the uncertainty expressed on the forum, there is no clear picture of which units can rout and which cannot.
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That's beautiful, yes...but also means the manual is very, very wrong (or 'simplified', if you prefer).
On altering morale: i think mixing regular troops with demons/undead also gives -1 morale, but I wonder if that bonus disappears if the demons/undead die in battle (or the reverse, if only the regular units).
Anyway this is such as complicated issue that perhaps asking for official explanations from the devs might be a good idea?
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