About Compass and Spyglass Thread - PiratesAhoy! Community

This is a follow on from a post i made in reply to Pieters comment on Part 2 of my Articles about my adventures with Direct Sailing, and it relates to some small issues around the navigational aids and their usage in game while direct sailing and fighting etc.

"Overall, as the article kind of captures, i had a blast in both and positive and negative sense! So yeah, the Build Mod is looking ship-shape matey.

For the situation with no access to the world map, i have a couple of caveats that might be worth keeping in mind. Possibly with all the different levels of function choice in terms of the info you get from navigational aids(compass/spyglass), we need to either reduce that range of choice, to make things a bit more obvious to the player what effect they will have in game, or(/and?) improve/reduce the range of info available from a specific bit of equipement.

Here's what i mean in detail:

No compass = no info on north or anything, that is how you start the game. This is fine.

Simple compass = cardinal directions and direction of wind. I find the trouble here is that i can't read the directions on the compass, so i can't tell north from south etc, but i can see the wind direction needle fine. This may be a resolution issue(i play in my native 1920x1200 mode), but i wonder if we shouldn't highlight the 'N' on this particular compass, at least that would make north stand out and from that you can work out what the others are?

Normal Compass = 'Default' stock PotC compass, so it shows quite a lot of info: clear cardinal readings(no problem here), wind direction(again ok), wind speed and my speed, amount of cannon in each facing, cannons ready, ammo loaded, and a small local area around the ship with i guess colour coded ship info.

Overall this is quite a 'jump up' in info. Especially compared with the cheap compasses lack of clear info. I haven't tried the next level of compass up, but i can't imagine what it could add on top of the 'Normal compass'?

I think if it is possible, we could look to improve the readability of the 'N' position on the cheap compass(make it 'bolder'/darker/thicker?).

On the 'normal compass', maybe look to remove some info, like 'wind speed', OR just make it that much more expensive to buy compared to the 'cheap compass', to better indicate just how much of an improvement it really is? Or maybe rename the cheap compass to 'normal compass'(with better higlighted 'N'), and the normal compass to 'good compass'(with increased price)?

One thing i didn't really get to understand was in the advanced options, you can seemingly change the 'look' of the compass? I select 'Historical brass compass', but so far i see no difference from the 'Stock PotC' normal compass? Does the info on the 'brass compass' option differ from the stock PotC one? Maybe this is not active yet properly in the beta stage?

So there are a few little things around the compasses i could see being agjusted or tweaked.

--------------------

The second part to this is the spyglass. It seems with 'realistic' settings in the advanced options(default now i think?), the only thing that changes from the 'cheap spyglass', through 'common spyglass' to 'superior spyglass' is that you get slightly less 'muck and stains' on the viewing image? None of them will show more than the ships name when you are close enough for combat already?

Ok that can be fine, except the descriptions on them say otherwise, so for a new player(or someone like me!) you end up thinking maybe your spyglass is broken!(or bugged). It might be a good idea to change the description texts, to leave out details on what each spyglass does, to allow for the greater flexibility of the mod effects etc? I'll put that on my list.

I love the idea of getting to know the ships in the game(so use actual knowledge) to be able to work out what they might be, but there are quite a few ships now. And maybe the biggest drawback here is that the zoom level and detail you can see through the spyglass is poor enough that mostly, so far, i can only determine if an approaching ships is an enemy by them having black sails, or the combat music starts and cannonball hit the deck! The flags(if no national info is on sails) are pretty hard to see, until you are more or less in battle-range, or approaching it. Maybe i just need to better learn the different flags! they do look wonderful though and are a huge improvement on the old flags

So in terms of spyglasses i know i can set them on the 'Fun' level, but that is like the stock PotC game setting i think(so too much info maybe?), alternatively i can(and am experimenting with currently) use 'internal.h' settings and the 'fine tunning' option to maybe get a better balance of info over set distances?

I'm scared to even try 'Hard' settings, as i figure not only will it give me false info, but the crew will no doubt have put black shoe polish on the viewing cap, to laugh at me after i try it!

My suggestion might be to go with the 'Fun' setting as the default? I haven't tried it as of yet, so don't know how it works in realtion to the different spyglass types etc, but 'realistic' = no info other than what my actual eyes and brain can process, sometimes i'll get a ships name, but no more! maybe a bit too hardcore for new players, or default setting?

Anyway these are just musing that should go in the forum, but maybe you'll find some of the feedback useful going forward to the next patch?

Did I tell you how much i love the new Direct Sailing mode! more awesome than awesome! "

Edited by: BlackBart

I'm not sure what to really do with the spyglasses; basically it's just the items that make you switch between the regular upper-right corner large display and the small lower left corner display that in Build 13 you could switch between through the menu.

For the spyglasses, indeed we should change the descriptions in Realistic Game Mode. In the next Patch, there's some slight tweaks to their magnification. If things work as they should, the more expensive spyglasses do enlarge more than the cheap ones.

The Fun/Realistic settings from Advanced Options don't do much in Realistic Game Mode, because they randomize a bit the numbers you see with your spyglass. But you don't get those numbers in Realistic Game Mode at all.

Maybe I can clarify a few things.

Simple compass: The bow of the ship always points up towards the top of the screen and the cardinal points roll around it. I can see it fine at 1920X1080. Personally, the only thing lacking from it is wind and ship speed. The best compass also shows friend and foe by ship color. It is a big help.
You can't change the look of the compass? I have in the past.

Realistic settings is the default. With that the spyglass shows ship name only, and that only when very close. In arcade mode the other settings work and give a lot of good info. This game was originally set to arcade mode only, so it is a bit harder now. Just recently someone posted a tweak so that arcade spyglass settings work in realistic mode. I tried it, but didn't save it, and no longer remember how to do it. All i remember is that it was easy to do.
I do believe that better spyglasses do give more magnification, but not much. A couple of months ago someone wanted to upgrade the spyglass to a 40x because Sir Isaac Newton built a telescope that size. It had a 6 inch (155mm) glass lens. Try picturing yourself holding a 1 1/2 meter tube with a big chunk of glass on the far end up to your eye and holding it steady enough to see anything on a moving ship.

Pieter_Boelen wrote: I'm not sure what to really do with the spyglasses; basically it's just the items that make you switch between the regular upper-right corner large display and the small lower left corner display that in Build 13 you could switch between through the menu.

Ah ok, so nothing changes in terms of what they display outside of the stock games parameters of either the smaller(less detailed) lower left display, or the larger(more detailed) upper right display. 'cheap compass' just shows the lower left display, 'normal compass' the upper right one?

Pieter_Boelen wrote:
For the spyglasses, indeed we should change the descriptions in Realistic Game Mode. In the next Patch, there's some slight tweaks to their magnification. If things work as they should, the more expensive spyglasses do enlarge more than the cheap ones.

If you want to point me in the direction of the files where this info is stored, and give me more details on this new magnifaction thing(like which spyglasses give what new magnifiaction etc), i'll have a go at writing in some new descriptions, if that is not already done.

Pieter_Boelen wrote:
The Fun/Realistic settings from Advanced Options don't do much in Realistic Game Mode, because they randomize a bit the numbers you see with your spyglass. But you don't get those numbers in Realistic Game Mode at all.

Ah, ok - what about using the 'Fine tuning' option, does that work in Realistic Game Mode?

-------------------------------------------------------

Miklkit wrote:
Simple compass: The bow of the ship always points up towards the top of
the screen and the cardinal points roll around it. I can see it fine
at 1920X1080. Personally, the only thing lacking from it is wind and
ship speed. The best compass also shows friend and foe by ship color.
It is a big help.
You can't change the look of the compass? I have in the past.

I think it good the cheap compass doesn't give you more info - it is the basic feature set compass after all, and 'cheap'. So that is good, except in 1920x1200 you just can't read the details of the cardinal directions at all(speaking as someone with 'eagle eyes' perfect eye-sight). So it is a resolution thing it seems.
I have selected the 'brass compass' in advanced settings, but maybe i haven't restarted a complete new game(although i think i did at one point), which might be why i'm still seeing the stock compass graphics.

Miklkit wrote:
Realistic settings is the default. With that the spyglass shows ship
name only, and that only when very close. In arcade mode the other
settings work and give a lot of good info. This game was originally set
to arcade mode only, so it is a bit harder now. Just recently someone
posted a tweak so that arcade spyglass settings work in realistic mode.
I tried it, but didn't save it, and no longer remember how to do it.
All i remember is that it was easy to do.

Well if you remember what that involved i'd love to find out, even if the default arcade settings for spyglass use was too informative, there may be ways to tweak it. Have you tried the 'Fine Tuning' option? did you get it to work in Realistic Mode?

Miklkit wrote:
I do believe that better spyglasses do give more magnification, but not
much. A couple of months ago someone wanted to upgrade the spyglass to a
40x because Sir Isaac Newton built a telescope that size. It had a 6
inch (155mm) glass lens. Try picturing yourself holding a 1 1/2 meter
tube with a big chunk of glass on the far end up to your eye and holding
it steady enough to see anything on a moving ship.

Aye that would be a sight! I've tried to see the difference in magnification between the spyglasses and my testing has shown that as far as i can tell the only difference is the cleanliness of the lense, the actual detail at distance remains the same, minus the clarity due to the mess/cracks in the lense etc.

In terms of the kind of magnifactions we should be thinking of, the earliest ones made by the dutch then improved on a year later by Galileo were about 3x magnification. This would be a good base for the cheap and common spyglass. If it works then maybe 5x for the next spyglass with 8x as the best(and probably better than most of the hand helf nautical spyglass of the era)? Something like that. I have a feeling they are all set at 3x currently, with a cleaner lense being the upgrade option as you trade up.

I should finish that the compass/spyglass stuff is minor detail, the game is playable and fine with the settings as is, i was just looking for a possible way to make the different types of nautical assistance have a bit more impact on the Direct Sail mode(and in relation to giving the player more reasons for upgrading his items etc). If the experiments Pieter mentions with improved magnification do work out, and maybe a way to use the 'Fine tuning' method within the Realistic Settings mode is possible, i see a good balance of nautical item and information they give you

There's three compasses:

Cheap Compass
This is a simple compass that points North. It is a valuable aid in navigation because it shows you wind direction.

Normal Compass
This normal compass is much more useful than the cheap one. It can show you wind and your ship's velocities, the land, the firing zone of your guns, as well as floating (grey triangles) and sinking (blue triangles) ships around you.

Enhanced Compass
This compass model is improved version of the Normal Compass; that one additionally can show which ships you're fighting with (red triangles) or which are neutral/friendly (grey/green triangles respectively) towards you.

The item descriptions are in RESOURCE\INI\TEXTS\ENGLISH\ItemsDescribe.txt ; however, shouldn't we switch spyglass descriptions based on the Realistic/Arcade Game Mode setting?
Here's the magnifications of the spyglasses:
spyglass1 "Cheap Spyglass": 3.0
spyglass2 "Average Spyglass": 5.0
spyglass3 "Great Spyglass": 7.5
spyglass4 "Master Spyglass": 10.0
These values are changed slightly from Patch 5, though Patch 5 didn't have them all at 3x either.
Check PROGRAM\ITEMS\initItems.c

The code changes for more realism settings are already in my Patch 6 WIP files.

The spy glass "Fine Tuning" option in Advanced Options is part of the randomized spyglass mods, which is ignored in Realistic Game Mode.

Pieter_Boelen wrote: There's three compasses:

Cheap Compass
This is a simple compass that points North. It is a valuable aid in navigation because it shows you wind direction.

Normal Compass
This normal compass is much more useful than the cheap one. It can show you wind and your ship's velocities, the land, the firing zone of your guns, as well as floating (grey triangles) and sinking (blue triangles) ships around you.

Enhanced Compass
This compass model is improved version of the Normal Compass; that one additionally can show which ships you're fighting with (red triangles) or which are neutral/friendly (grey/green triangles respectively) towards you.

Yeah these are fine, and the way they work is fine in upto 1920x1080 it seems. The graphic used for the cardianl 'wheel' that spins around, is that at a known and accessible location do you know? I figure, if possible(using Photoshop maybe) making the 'N' on the compass red might sort the issue with the cheap compass's usability in 1920x1200 mode(we could off course tell people to not use a res larger than 1920x1080 in the readme maybe?).

Pieter_Boelen wrote:
The item descriptions are in RESOURCE\INI\TEXTS\ENGLISH\ItemsDescribe.txt ; however, shouldn't we switch spyglass descriptions based on the Realistic/Arcade Game Mode setting?

Yes, definately that is best(changing the descriptions based on realism mode on/off). Still i also have some other Items that need their descriptions sorted, the 'Swept Hilt Rapier' is one that springs to mind, but i've seen a couple that need a little work.

Pieter_Boelen wrote:
Here's the magnifications of the spyglasses:
spyglass1 "Cheap Spyglass": 3.0
spyglass2 "Average Spyglass": 5.0
spyglass3 "Great Spyglass": 7.5
spyglass4 "Master Spyglass": 10.0
These values are changed slightly from Patch 5, though Patch 5 didn't have them all at 3x either.
Check PROGRAM\ITEMS\initItems.c

The code changes for more realism settings are already in my Patch 6 WIP files.

The spy glass "Fine Tuning" option in Advanced Options is part of the randomized spyglass mods, which is ignored in Realistic Game Mode.

Ah ok they do have better magnification as you upgrade, wow i guess it shows at this level of spec(early 17th century) where the best lenses available would be between x3 and x9ish, the margins of noticable improvement were very small! Good to see the numbers close to historical accuracy - no 21st century 'sniper' scope zoom scales. Although maybe a 'practical' option, in terms of letting the player use their own knowledge of the ships etc, would be to improve the in game zooms(the difference between real actual sight, and in game world depiction being the reason). So we could go for x5 for cheap, x7 for average, x10 for great and x15 for master? something like that? I could play around a bit and see how it feels.

Would it be possible to have the 'Fine Tunning' mod work within the Realistic Game Mode? Or is it set to off for compatibility reasons, what should i do to try to switch it on for some testing etc?

And thanks guys for all this info, as always your a pleasure to work with

Edited by: BlackBart

For the compass texture, see RESOURCE\Textures\BATTLE_INTERFACE - the files are named as "compass".

The zoom factors I posted are already increased from the Patch 5 code.
If in Patch 6, you still find it's not enough, we can always increase them a bit more.'
I'm not sure if the numbers are actually the real zoom (eg. 3x) or just a random factor.

The fine tuning for the spyglass is purely for the randomization of the information that the spyglass gives you, but it doesn't give you any of that in Realistic Game Mode. In Patch 6, there'll be a setting in InternalSettings.h called "SPYGLASS_ASI" that will allow you to have Arcade Game Mode spyglass in Realistic Game Mode. Then you can use the different realism settings on that and also use the fine tune settings.

Re using 'Spyglass_asi' and the settings from 'Fine tuning' in Realistic Game Mode, that sounds like a good option, maybe to even set as default, depending on how the 'Fine tuning' option works(i haven't been able to use it yet, being in realism mode). But 'some' info, dependant on quality of spyglass, with an element of random sounds like(in theory) that it might hit the right spot.

Looking at PROGRAM\ITEMS\initItems.c, i can see it is quite simple to change the range of info each spyglass shows, 'Morale' was always one that while handy in a 'game' sense, never really fit in a realism sense, also 'gunpowder/ammo' level(you couldn't know that without being on the ship, or using spies!), but that's the rub of game vs realism, and it's fun finding the sweet spot

hmmm in terms of the locking out of the Map Navigation Icon you mentioned earlier, and thinking about the current 'realistic'(no info from the game) setting for Spyglasses(and 'Hard' setting also), what about a kind of 'Iron Man' mode you could select from the Advanced menu, that set these hardest realism settings, to make it clearer for the player, and maybe to ensure the real hard realism settings are set to work together, rather than present some of the current confusions i've been talking about, as a new person to the features of this current build?

Amyway food for thought and experimentation

Edited by: BlackBart

At the moment, Realistic Game Mode is on by default, but indeed we should have the default setting be not quite overly arcade-y but also not ridiculously realistic. In any case, disabeling Map mode altogether is not something I'll enable by default; we'll just have the toggle in InternalSettings.h .

I do think we've got far too many settings. Maybe we should limit it to Arcade and Realistic as we have now and then have an Advanced Options setting for what you call "Iron Man", eg. as close to 100% realism as possible and no arcade-y stuff at all.

Note that, at the moment, any change you make to the info levels in initItems.c will not take effect in Realistic Game Mode because the bar that shows all that stuff is set to be always empty. This is what the SPYGLASS_ASI setting will disable, so then you can do whatever again.

As for the spyglass fine tuning, I'm thinking maybe we shouldn't have ten different settings for spyglass inaccuracy. Just the fun/realistic toggle seems like enough to me.

Looking in initItems.c i see the info settings for spyglass info, which look like
the defaults. So are what you get in 'Arcade' mode only currently?
In 'Realism' mode you only get the ships name currently, no matter which spyglass
you use? we could do with a medium between the two.

Was the 'Crew' info about numbers or morale(i forget)? I think 'Charge'(ammo iirc) is
something you just wouldn't know from any spyglass, so that should go in all but
the most arcade/fun settings.

So lets take the above for 'Arcade' mode settings - which is stock PotC.
It's quite 'gamey' but good for novice players and works well for that level.

I propose we use KBLACK's 'Fine Tuning' mod for 'Realistic' settings, then as you
mention use the current 'Realism' settings of only ships name for the 'Iron Man'
settings within advanced options. What is the range for when combat is initiated
at sea?

If i know that i'll be able to come up with the tables for a tweaked 'Fine Tuning'
setting for 'Realistic' mode, and a version of the table above that could be used
for the 'Iron Man' setting(keeping in mind you'll only get the ships name as
currently in 'Realistic' mode, but i will increase the zoom numbers to componsate).
Atleast this will give three clear 'tables' to be used with each of the three game
settings, 'Arcade'/'Realistic' and an 'Iron Man' mode in the advanced options.

EDIT: sorry for the format, i'd just spent 30mins trying to get some form of table of spyglass
stats to post, but it kept giving me an 'can't post messages of more than 80 chars wide' message,
even when i had cropped stuff about. Oh well, i'll have to prepare them and post them on the ftp
or wait for the main site to come back up.

Edited by: BlackBart

Crew should be the crew numbers.

Distance of engagement for sea encounters is defined in InternalSettings.h:
MIN_ENEMY_DISTANCE_TO_DISABLE_MAP_ENTER
and
MIN_ENEMY_DISTANCE_TO_DISABLE_ENTER_2_LOCATION

The spyglass code can be found in PROGRAM\BATTLE_INTERFACE\ispyglass.c .
Refer especially to Screwface's code in there that removed all information from the spyglass "additional information" bar.

The KBSPG marked code is for KBlack's spyglass realism mod. I'm thinking maybe we should simplify all this so that:
1. In Arcade Game Mode, KBlack's spyglass realism mod will be OFF
2. In Realistic Game Mode, KBlack's spyglass realism mod will be ON with whatever values you consider to work well
3. There'll be an Advanced Options setting for "Iron Man" game, which triggers Screwface's complete removal of any information on the ships except the name when you get close

If you want, for realism's sake, it'd be possible to set up different initItems.c values for Realistic Game Mode.

All I would like to see is some sort of damage indicator. As it is now there is no way to know how damaged a ship is, except that when it raises sails and tries to leave experience in arcade mode says that it has less than 30% hull left, and when it changes from shot to chain that means their morale is gone and I should chase them down and board. Except that they just shot out my sails.......

Pieter_Boelen wrote: Crew should be the crew numbers.

Distance of engagement for sea encounters is defined in InternalSettings.h:
MIN_ENEMY_DISTANCE_TO_DISABLE_MAP_ENTER
and
MIN_ENEMY_DISTANCE_TO_DISABLE_ENTER_2_LOCATION

The spyglass code can be found in PROGRAM\BATTLE_INTERFACE\ispyglass.c .
Refer especially to Screwface's code in there that removed all information from the spyglass "additional information" bar.

The KBSPG marked code is for KBlack's spyglass realism mod. I'm thinking maybe we should simplify all this so that:
1. In Arcade Game Mode, KBlack's spyglass realism mod will be OFF
2. In Realistic Game Mode, KBlack's spyglass realism mod will be ON with whatever values you consider to work well
3. There'll be an Advanced Options setting for "Iron Man" game, which triggers Screwface's complete removal of any information on the ships except the name when you get close.

Yeah that sounds perfect, i'm 100% with you on that. It then allows the player in 'Realistic' mode to further customise the spyglasses in the InternalSettings.h file if they want to. One thing i noticed in KBlack's mod are some values that might be worth commenting out as default:

1. Gunpowder - i'm not sure how using a spyglass would tell you how much ammo a ship had left?
2. Morale - again, a little iffy to my mind; ok they could be jumping up and down pumping their chests and looking lively...but....not sure on this.
3. Load - as in ammo loaded. How could you practically see that? I'm prepared to be persuaded this is possible......

All the rest seem fine and i like how CREW is based on what you can see on top deck, the rest you have to work out based on your knowledge of the ship.
Did this ever get playtested in the Build Mod at any point? Did it work well, or do you think the range numbers need adjusting(as in 350 yards to get a chance of seeing crew numbers, 750 yards to get a chance of seeing hull's condition etc). How did the 'accuracy parameters' of the different spyglasses work out? Apart from the three i mention above(Gunpowder,Morale and Load) all the rest seem fine and the mod looks like it could be very decent.

Ah yes, so in realation to:

MIN_ENEMY_DISTANCE_TO_DISABLE_MAP_ENTER
and
MIN_ENEMY_DISTANCE_TO_DISABLE_ENTER_2_LOCATION

Both are set at 500, which is the info i was looking for. I'll work on making a slightly adjusted KBlack 'Spyglass view' and post that when i've done it and tested.

Edited by: BlackBart

The Realistic Spyglass mod by KBlack has been in the Build since the release of Build 13, so plenty of people have played with it on default settings as it is. Never really had any complaints on it either.

Pieter_Boelen wrote: The Realistic Spyglass mod by KBlack has been in the Build since the release of Build 13, so plenty of people have played with it on default settings as it is. Never really had any complaints on it either.

That's good :b: I never did try build mod 13! And just simply comenting out('//') those '#define KBSPGRANGEGUNPOWDER' etc lines in InternalSettings.h causes a crash, so one way may be to just reduce the range for knowing those three stats i feel are a bit ropey to know details off(Gunpowder left, Morale, Ammo type loaded). I'm starting an 'Arcade' mode game, and have set the Spyglass function in advanced options to 'Fine Tuning' to see the mod in effect(i hope!).

Pieter_Boelen wrote:
For the compass texture, see RESOURCE\Textures\BATTLE_INTERFACE - the files are named as "compass".

I'm going to need some graphics converter tool aren't i to read the 'compass1.tga.tx' files. I plan to use photoshop to try changing the colour of 'N' on the 'spinning wheel' part of the compass(not sure which tga.tx file that is yet). If i can do it i figure it won't be that intrusive and will help people using the 'Simple Compass' in 1920x1200 mode(there may be more than one!). Shame the main site is down as i think all the info i need to access these tga.tx files is there - 'Camren Diaz Tool' or something like that, is that what i need from the 'ftp'?

@Miklkit, yeah even some basic info makes those tactical decisions during ship battle easier, with the system Pieter and myself have been talking about above, you will get info like hull streangth again as a default setting within 'Realistic' game mode. Tell me one thing, as i'm trying to be persuaded on it, how do you think you could tell what type of shot an enemy ship had loaded in it's cannons with a spyglass? I suppose if you saw the gun crew loading the cannons, that might work?(lol - ok i've answered my own problem!) - in that case you'd need to be quite close, maybe the same distance for getting info on the numbers of crew(or a little bit closer even)?

I had a 1920x1200 BenQ monitor, but it messed up and was replaced by a 1920x1080 model. I like the new one better because it is a lot easier on my old eyes.

Yes, you want TOOL and GMViewer for starters. I still barely know how to use them.

Yes, you would need to be close. Say, within hailing distance?

The tools are still available; the TX Converter is the one you need: Pyratesahoy.com

I think for disabeling some spyglass info, it'd be best to just set the range to 0.
Alternatively, we'll have to set up the spyglasses to not show that stuff in initItems.c .

Pieter_Boelen wrote: The tools are still available; the TX Converter is the one you need: 'txconverter.zip'[edit:didn't let me post the full url in the reply]

I think for disabeling some spyglass info, it'd be best to just set the range to 0.
Alternatively, we'll have to set up the spyglasses to not show that stuff in initItems.c .

Ah cool, i was having a problem finding the right TX converter tool.

Yes i've been experimenting with setting ranges to low for some of the info types, and increasing it for others etc. One thing puzzels me currently. Using the 'Arcade mode' setting in the current build(to disable the 'Realistic' modes screwface spyglass 'over-ride') and setting the 'Spyglass' to 'Fine tuning' in the advanced options; I've not been able to get more than icons for Nation flag, Sails(damage), Hull(damage), Ships name, Ships class, Ships speed.

I can't seem to get crew numbers, cannon number, or the other stuff in KBlacks mod in the InternalSettings.h file to show up. I've only tested this with the cheap and common spyglass, so i'm wondering if there is an info cap depending on which spyglass you use? In the mod it doesn't look like this is the case, as it seems to add a random element to the info you get, rather than block it out?

Back onto the topic of the spyglass ranges, with the 'naked eye' in game you can see a ship upto around 4000-5000 yards roughly, as in you can see it's shape(depending on size) and definately see it's sails. Depending on the weather this will change, but clear conditions and you can see quite far.

Now, in those conditions, using a cheap or common spyglass i can more or less tell the ships shape(so type) and so also the class. Just on a few types so far, as i don't know all the ships exactly yet! But the graphical detail is there for a knowledgable player to make the id.

At around 2000-4000 yards(depending on ships size etc), using those spyglass, i can see if the sails have damage or not(as in the holes in the sails).

So i'm thinking there should be a natural order to what a lookout would know when first encountering a ship at distance, and am looking to establish an order for use in the settings for spyglass info. From testing with the first two spyglass types, I'm thinking this would be a likely order of info gathering from furthest range to shortest(these categories are from KBlacks mod):

1. Ship type(say between 4000-2000 depending on ship size: i've set it at 2750 during testing)
2. Ship class(say between 3000-1500 depending on ship size: set to 2250 for testing)
3. Sails damage(say between 2500-1500 depending on ship size: set to 2000 for testing)
4. Nation flag(say between 3000-1500 depending on flag size: set to 1800 for testing)
5. Cannon number(say between 2500-1000 depending in ship size: set to 1200 for testing)
6. Ship speed(say between 1800-1000 depending on ship+wave crest size: set to 1000 for testing)
7. Hull damage(say between 1200-500 depending on ship size: set to 700 for testing)
8. Crew numbers(say between 1000-500 depending on ship size: set to 550 for testing)
9. Cannon Caliber(say between 800-300 depending on ship/cannon size: set to 450 for testing)
10. Ship name(say between 800-300 depending on ?spyglass magnification?: set to 400 for testing)

These last three are down to very close range, and require a bit of 'role play' to allow a spyglass to 'see' them imho. Of the three 'Gunpowder amount' still troubles me a bit:

11. Gunpowder amount(set to 250 for testing. Spyglass user 'see's' the barrels of powder on deck, being taken to the gun crew etc)
12. Crew Moral(set to 250 for testing. Spyglass user 'see's' the expressions and demeanour of the crew on the ship etc)
13. Ammo type loaded(set to 250 for testing). Spyglass user 'see's' the type of ammo being loaded into the cannons directly etc)

Of those figures given for ranges, those are 'realistic' in terms of in-game usage, even if they contain some issues within them, for example, in InternalSettings.h KBlack had set 'Ship type' to be very close(350) so the player had to better learn the ships in game, which is a good thing to encourage. So we reach that realm of 'realism over game'.

I feel i'd rather aim for more realism as part of the 'Realistic' mode. In relation to the ship type specifically, if you as the player do actually know the ships hull shapes you will still be able to guess it BEFORE the spyglass gives you the info(unless it is very foggy!). So for the serious player the ranges i'm testing above are on the lower scale of what you can actualy see through the spyglass in game. For the newer player the breakdown of order of information related to range should seem believable enough and practical. For example it is much easier to see and judge 'Sail damage' than it is 'Hull damage' - one you can tell from afar, the other you need to be pretty close to start to spot the detail.

Arcade game mode, should use the default PotC spyglass settings(or what is now their default).

'Iron Man' mode should use screwfaces spyglass 'no info but ship name when close' method.

Even with KBlack's mod, the level of information given by spyglasses still depends on the type as per the initItems.c entries. Basically, the information you can see at all depends on the spyglass you use. KBlack's mod puts some inaccuracies on the information given, regardless of the spyglass used but based on the Advanced Options/InternalSettings values for the mod.

Arcade Game Mode: Should we have the randomization mod here OFF, on "Fun" setting or "Realistic"?
Build 13 default is realistic.

Realistic Game Mode: Here we should use your fine-tuned values, right? Are your values very different from KBlack's original Realistic values?

What limitations of Realistic Game Mode should we limit to the "Iron Man" toggle, do you reckon?
At least:
. Spyglass not giving you ANY information, except ship name when very close
(ship name is required for "sink the pirate" type quests)
. Worldmap sailing mode disabled, so DirectSail enforced
. Compass minimap disabled completely?

Or should we maybe return to the original game's idea that Realistic Game Mode merely has to do with the sailing model and EVERY other limitation is part of "Iron Man" mode, including the player being forced to find locations first before being able to "fast travel"/"sail to"?

Pieter_Boelen wrote: Even with KBlack's mod, the level of information given by spyglasses still depends on the type as per the initItems.c entries. Basically, the information you can see at all depends on the spyglass you use. KBlack's mod puts some inaccuracies on the information given, regardless of the spyglass used but based on the Advanced Options/InternalSettings values for the mod.

Oh, so the extra info in his mod(for morale etc) never shows in game on the blue spyglass bar? I guess it was tried out to make it show? Or any idea's on how to make it show?(i suspect it involves quite a bit of work in the gui programming side and having the graphic icons to place on the spyglass info bar). So currently we are limited to what each spyglass type allows in initItems.c ?

Pieter_Boelen wrote:
Arcade Game Mode: Should we have the randomization mod here OFF, on "Fun" setting or "Realistic"?
Build 13 default is realistic.

I think the randomization mod works well across the board, so i'd say keep it in all the game modes. It provides further incentive to upgrade your Spyglass right(to get less random around the true values seen)? That's a good thing imho.

Pieter_Boelen wrote:
Realistic Game Mode: Here we should use your fine-tuned values, right? Are your values very different from KBlack's original Realistic values?

I'll post my list above with the original values at the end of line, you'll see i have switched the priority in what info you see at different ranges:

1. Ship type(say between 4000-2000 depending on ship size: i've set it at 2750 during testing). ORIGINAL VALUE = 350(KB had made this very low)

2. Ship class(say between 3000-1500 depending on ship size: set to 2250 for testing). ORIGINAL VALUE = 750

3. Sails damage(say between 2500-1500 depending on ship size: set to 2000 for testing). ORIGINAL VALUE = 1500

4. Nation flag(say between 3000-1500 depending on flag size: set to 1800 for testing). ORIGINAL VALUE = 1500

5. Cannon number(say between 2500-1000 depending in ship size: set to 1200 for testing). ORIGINAL VALUE = 750

6. Ship speed(say between 1800-1000 depending on ship+wave crest size: set to 1000 for testing). ORIGINAL VALUE = 1500

7. Hull damage(say between 1200-500 depending on ship size: set to 700 for testing). ORIGINAL VALUE = 750

8. Crew numbers(say between 1000-500 depending on ship size: set to 550 for testing). ORIGINAL VALUE = 350

9. Cannon Caliber(say between 800-300 depending on ship/cannon size: set to 450 for testing). ORIGINAL VALUE = 350

10. Ship name(say between 800-300 depending on ?spyglass magnification?: set to 400 for testing). ORIGINAL VALUE = 750

11. Gunpowder amount(set to 250 for testing. Spyglass user 'see's' the
barrels of powder on deck, being taken to the gun crew etc). ORIGINAL VALUE = 750

12. Crew Moral(set to 250 for testing. Spyglass user 'see's' the expressions and demeanour of the crew on the ship etc). ORIGINAL VALUE = 350

13. Ammo type loaded(set to 250 for testing). Spyglass user 'see's' the type of ammo being loaded into the cannons directly etc). ORIGINAL VALUE = 750

In terms of the values i'm using above, if we take a distance of 500 being the engagment range, i was looking for the actual info you would know in 'real life' before this arbitary engagement range triggered combat. Most of the distances in how they relate to what you see in the game work as above, although i guess the 'Ships name' is the only one i'm not sure on at the setting of 400 i've chosen. In terms of the game and having to get ship names at set distances maybe that is too close? I was just thinking about out of all the features of a ship, seeing the name carved on the side is probably the smallest detail you would look for at range? But this '400' could change to anything upto the default '750' if need be(although i'd look to set it at max around the engagment range, so 500-600 max?).

In general ranges have been increased, based on actual viewable distance in game, and it seems with the randomization thing and spyglass quality all playing it's part the distances are not too great, as i mentioned before i can ID a ship in terms of type and class before the spyglass informs me(well the few ships i currently know anyway!). If it was wanted we can reduce some of these numbers, but the general order of what actual information you would get is about correct in that list, so reductions should be based around that model of scale(you'll notice that from 1-13 the range stats all reduce in steps).

Pieter_Boelen wrote:
What limitations of Realistic Game Mode should we limit to the "Iron Man" toggle, do you reckon?
At least:
. Spyglass not giving you ANY information, except ship name when very close
(ship name is required for "sink the pirate" type quests)
. Worldmap sailing mode disabled, so DirectSail enforced
. Compass minimap disabled completely?

Or should we maybe return to the original game's idea that Realistic Game Mode merely has to do with the sailing model and EVERY other limitation is part of "Iron Man" mode, including the player being forced to find locations first before being able to "fast travel"/"sail to"?

Hmm i'm not sure i know all the features well enough to give a definitive answer. I'd add, as 'at least' options for 'Iron Man' mode to be difficulty set at 'SwashBuckler', and maybe the chance of death thing being around '60-80'(as the max 130 = certain death, so aim for 50-70% chance of death). Maybe that would be it. I think the way the 'Realistic' game mode is currently, in that it effects things outside of the sailing, is good and i see 'Iron Man' advanced options as simply being a way to further enhance that already, principly in the skills required to be good at sea(so Direct Sailing only, most basic aids for spyglass etc).

I'd definately be looking to do the least work possible around all this, in terms of code etc. I see the things i've observed as being more tweaks/balancing/polish aspects rather than featre re-writes. So lets keep things as close to where they are now, and work on refining that feature set and getting a good balance of easy('Arcade' mode), default('Realistic' mode) and hard('Iron Man' refinement in advanced options).

I think 'Iron Man' should be locked to just the 'Realistic' mode, as that makes sense and is probably easier to impliment. I'm not 100% sure all the features in the 'Advanced Options' work currently anyway(i can't figure out how to get the 'brass compass' to show etc), so i guess cleaning all that up will make it less confusing to new players. But all that probably needs it's own thread!

The ranges one can see in this game are phenomenal.

BlackBart: The better the spyglass the more info is shown. Get thyself a masterworks spyglass ASAP.

Worldmap sailing disabled? Except for early in the game when using small single ships my hard drive is running continuously in directsail. So worldmap is used often to save the HD. I have 8gb of ram too.

Well on a good clear day, i'm not sure what the limit is on the range the game actually will display ships at sea, i've seen atleast around 5000 yards, taking into account the randomization mods effect! But yeah you can see a long way, which is why i've tried to model this in, to make a little more realism sense, but not to push it so much that you won't get a chance to exercise your ship knowledge before the spyglass gives you the info, that was my main aim.

I haven't gotten far enough in one single game to even see a masterworks spyglass! but yeah that is the pinnicle to aim for.

I don't get much work going on on my hard drive during direct sailing, and i only have 3gb ram! And don't worry - that is just for 'Iron Man' mode, so not required.

Execute these two lines through PROGRAM\console.c to get the masterwork spyglass:
GiveItem2Character(pchar, "spyglass4");
EquipCharacterByItem(pchar, "spyglass4");
That way, at least you can test the maximum that a spyglass will ever show you.

Here's the list I once wrote on Arcade vs. Realistic Game Mode:

- Realistic Sailing Mode
. Wind direction has a much bigger impact and you can't sail into the wind anymore (in Arcade mode, you can)
. Different rig types have a MUCH bigger impact than in Arcade mode

- In Arcade mode, based on what spyglass you've bought, they will show:
. Nation
. Ship name
. Ship type
. Cannon type of other ship
. Hull and sail damage
. Number of crewmembers
. Speed
. Charge type (eg. balls, chainshot or grape)
There IS an inaccuracy built into these spyglass observations (can be increased or turned off in "Advanced Options"),
but since a real spyglass cannot give you this information at all, in Realistic mode,
your spyglass tells you only other ships' name when they're close, but nothing else.
Spyglasses only enlarge the view (better spyglasses enlarge more) and you have to observe the other ships yourself.
So you'll have to pay proper attention to the other ship's type, colour scheme and flags to define whether she could be hostile or not.

- "Fast Travel" ashore is disabled for most locations, until you manually discovered them by walking through town.

- "Sail To" at sea is disabled for all locations until you've manually discovered them by sailing to them.
The buyable maps here really help you to find certain shores.

- "Sail To" at sea is disabled for all ships that are too close to you (no instant-teleports to right next to the enemy ship)
and also for all ships that, based on your speed relative to the other ship's speed, you cannot overtake.

- Ashore, when there's enemies around, the red flashing icon and danger music doesn't start until they actually draw their swords.
This way, you are not pre-warned of any impeding danger.

- Realistic Game Mode removes 'list of ships' log messages upon entering 3D sailing mode at an island

That all looks good to me, like i said before, lets keep it as close to where it is now as possible, besides it being less work it is also already pretty darn close to being perfect. I just felt(and still feel) on my intitial Build Mod 14 beta play throughs that the spyglass thing seemed a little confusing(i thought stuff might be broken, i didnt know it was screwfaces mod in effect!), and maybe a little 'harsh' for the default game setting, which still should be 'Realistic Game Mode'.

And like you were talking about before, it would be a good thing to simplify the settings re 'Aracde', 'Realistic' + Advanced Settings etc. I think i'll stick up another thread going through the detail of all that, atleast then we can have some clear lists to work at balancing out a bit more.

And thanks on the tip - i now have the masterworks spyglass to test out :sail:

Sounds good. Let me know what final ideas you've got, then I can sort out the code and get it working.
I'll probably remove the Advanced Options spyglass stuff altogether; it'll be either on (on your custom settings in Realistic Game Mode or the default Build 13 settings in Arcade Game Mode) or it'll be off (in Iron Man mode).