TMC Modder's Interview - NeoX news

Welcome to the sixth interview of the TMC Modder's Interviews. Now delving into a new game unknown to me but I think it became a very interesting interview and will offer you a good insight into the modding activities outside your own game. Enjoy now the interview with

Hello, Unreal_NeoX. Here we are back again, again with another German fellow who is modding LotR into a game with his team. And again we give the non-german speaking readers a fair chance to follow the interview too and keep it in English. Lets start with an introduction of yourself for those who don’t know you.
Answer: Sure so how should I begin? I am NeoX (Unreal_NeoX if I was too slow and the name was already taken :-P) and I am currently 29 years old with big steps towards the very scary number 30 with a huge passion for RPG and RTS games.

I don’t know if this counts but I have done my first steps in modding at the age of 11-12 with the good old “RPG Maker 2000”. Since then I started to find a lot of fun in creating my own levels and scenarios in whatever game could offer me a valid level-editor or even a deeper character editor. Games like SpellForce 3 (2017), Age of Mythology or Unreal Tournament 2004 took most of my time back then and there mostly the level and game editors. These were also the first games who showed me the power of modding communities and that you could even convert your favorite fantasy saga (Lord of the Rings) into games that had nothing to do with it originally. So a friend introduced me to a mod where they rebuild Helm’s Deep in UT2004 and even implemented an RPG system next to it where you could only fight in close combat with “orc-bots” charging you.

I was so impressed about this that I decided to want to do the same at some point. So I tried to learn how to mod for games, create new content, maps, levels and how game specific engines work. The last point, I learned the hard way. One thing that most of you will know is that only see all these “successful” mods out there and not all these who had been dropped or didn’t even get a public release because of issues in the development or (biggest issue today) copyright. Over the last 15 years I got mostly known in the SpellForce community for my level and map design. One point where I feel most honored even until today is that the official publisher of SpellForce back then (JoWood) contacted me with the question if I would be ok for me if my maps would be included as an extra in their next premium edition. Of course I said yes and so everyone out there who owns the@ “SpellForce 2 Hero Edition” gets my maps with it.

After that my friends and I wanted to do something bigger. We wanted to implement “Lord of the Rings” into SpellForce 2. It was perfect since it already had multiple factions like Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, Trolls, Barbarians and Dark-Elves. The best key features of the SpellForce series have always been that they were a dynamic mix of RPG and RTS. Perfect for a LotR Mod where you can build your own armies but stand in the middle of the battles with the heroes. Sadly because of limitations in the game design and missing tools back at the time, we had to drop that idea in mid project. An experience who did very much demotivate us, so we even dropped the game since that point. In the following years I finished school and started training for my future job. I wanted to become a software developer and succeeded. In the time next to my training for my future job I did mostly maps and smaller mods for Unreal Tournament 3 because of all its support for custom mods and maps that it offered in native.

I am currently working for a very big IT-Company as a software developer (business, security and database software). A lot of people ask my team and me if we would ever consider to create a game for a living and I have to say that I would deny that because when we look at the last years these are not save jobs and since I am getting quite old, job safety becomes more important as a quick high income. Anyway in my free time I am still all gamer and modding is my most favorite part about it. So I hope I could give you all a little overview about myself and my past.

That was a pretty long introduction. Now to our traditional first question: What do you prefer, the books or the films?
Answer: Oh that’s an evil question! In my point of view you can’t really compare them. The books take place over a time span of over 20 years and are mostly about the journey, the companions and the lessons that came with them. The movies on the other hand are very focused about the danger and atmospheric events that get to be succeeded. Yeah so.. how can I answer this question...

When it comes to pure entertainment I vote for the movies, but when it comes to story, experience and overall lore, the books can’t be beaten.

When and how did you come into touch with modding? Did you have any past experiences which helped at the start?
Answer: Yeah like I already said at the first question, my first experience and activity comes back until the “RPG Maker 2000”. It was quite simple but easy to control by everyone. You could just play around and make your simple ideas become reality. Yeah it was all just 2D, but it did raiseddesire for more. Since that point you could say that I grow up with some of the most modded game series and with it all these technical steps and growing modding freedom and its expanding tools.

You are the first one I interview who is modding a game which is not one of the big three, so neither Total War, BfME or M&B. Why did you choose this game for your mod? Or was it more a byproduct since you are modding at Spellforce 3 anyway?
Answer: Well mostly my team and I wanted to do it even before SpellForce 3 came out. Since we failed with our project backin SpellForce 2 we wanted to succeed with it here and making use of all these SpellForce key features of RPG and RTS mix.

This would always be a dream come true. SpellForce with its Humans, Elves, Orcs and Dwarves where you can build your own camps and armies, but stand in the middle of the fights next to your units, recreating the most epic battles of the LotR saga and experiencing it with your own eyes. I think most people would love to see a new Battle for Middle Earth but with the RPG depth of the RPG Hero games.

Do you see some advantages or disadvantages at Spellforce 3 regarding modding, compared to other games? Is there a big modding community present?
Answer: Well the biggest advantage is/was the advertised level editor and open game design which makes it possible in the first place to create very detailed and unique levels and maps.

SpellForce 3 - Modding Kit Teaser - Mod DB

I know that a lot of mods only do visual changes, but we wanted to create real experiences that can be played and that not only by your own, but also in Coop. The other side that can mostly be seen as a disadvantage is that because of the small and sometimes inexperienced official Developer-team (Grimlore Games) behind SpellForce 3 there were a lot of bugs and glitches we had to fight with. Quite a challenge, but we have been willing to take it.

As far as I am aware there are no other LotR-mods for Spellforce 3. How does it feel like to basically have a monopoly on LotR for your game?
Answer: Well, there is always a first one, but I believe we only have been the first ones because we dared to mod for this game even with the knowledge that this game is not in its “finished state”. SpellForce 3 has still some features on it’s to do list that can change the game design and build up so I guess most modders wait for the game to be “completed” so their mods won’t become incompatible.

If I have seen it correctly, the ‘SpellForce 3 - Lord of the Rings Mod Pack’ was created by a little team, just IT-Huskys and you. Are there no more LotR fans beneath the modders who are eager to help you at this noble quest?
Answer: Ok, I think there was a little misunderstanding here. It-Huskys is our developer/modding group name and we are quite some few.

Ommariuolo (Coding and Event-Design), Jacky (3D artist and Design), Applina(2D artist), TheDarkRuler (Lore master and Story checker), Wormic (Research and fact hunt), Lukas (lawyer) and me. So I am not alone, but I think a lot of people “fear” to create mods based on heavily copyrighted material since they are not confirm with the laws and getting all these news about sued modders. So I think it’s a mix of waiting for a “complete game” and getting sued for making a mistake that make the number for supporters so “low”.

The huge amount of LotR-mods at other games don’t really indicate for a ‘fear‘ in my opinion but we will come back to the copyright issues later. How is the working flow in your team? Do you have a working schedule upon which you orientate or are you simply working on what comes into your mind at the moment?
Answer: Well I think it’s our life and work experiences that make us plan everything as much as we can. Topic, maps, events, texts, time plan, task schedule,... everything is planned (on paper) even before we create the first line of code or place the first object on a map.

Step 1: Research Copyright and current law situation about involved IP

Step 2: Research technical details and limitations of the planned to be used game/engine

Step 3: Research IP material and lore facts

Step 4: Plan mod content

Step 5: Plan content design and gameplay

Step 6: Split up the tasks and give everyone his part of the job he can work on without to rely on another work group

Step 7: A-Sync production of the planned content

Step 8: Compile all Content together to the planned release state (#1)

Step 9: Internal beta test

Step 10: Bug fixes and Correction

Step 11: Public beta test

Step 12: Last polish and inclusion of feedback

Step 13: Public Release

So yeah, mostly everything is planned and researched as much as possible. After all nobody wants a project to fail because of unseen issues or misinformation.

I watched some gameplay of your modpack at the channel of RedBuro (can be found here and here). And as it can also be seen at the screenshot below your units look at the same time familiar and strange. Some details of the film-designs can be found but they also got their own ùnique touch. How did this evolve? Did you decide willingly for them to look this way or is it more resulting from the lack of 3d-skills?
Answer: Yeah, this is the result of our copyright research. We searched what symbols and uniforms are copyright protected and how we can solve this issue. The solution was to make the unit designs “inspired” and “based of” but not exactly copied or very close to them. Even the logos like the “white tree of Gondor” only look like them at the first sight, but when you look closer you see alterations that make it a not copyright protected symbol. Others like the shield of Rohan are not copy protected and can therefore be used freely.

So yeah, we wanted to make it possible that the players get the feeling to play with units out of the LotR universe without breaking the copyright and make sure that the mod does not get pulled down.

Using assets from other sources have always been a topic for the LotR modders out there. Is this something your team decided not to relay upon and to do everything by yourself? Or was it simply not practicable for your game to use models from other sources?
Answer: And again we have the copyright answer. It would have been nice if we could just make it easy for us and use assets created by other modders and get faster to our goal, but we had to make sure that everything that we do is copyright confirm and some sources’ modders can’t be found or asked, that make these assets/objects not a very reliable thing to use.

Most modders follow the common sense rules of asking for permissions. What are your thoughts about people using assets from other sources without permission?
Answer: As a person who experienced the “Steam workshop war” with all its abuse and stolen mods, I have no positive words for these kinds of “modders”. Behavior like this is the reason why a lot of modders do aggressive branding on their work or some even stop modding overall. Its no nice feeling to create something just to see it getting stolen and others are getting “fame” for it. Stealing is a crime, no matter its form.

What about the iconic music of the films? Is it getting used too at your modpack or are you relaying on the native game music of SpellForce 3 which has it’s own charme?
Answer: Well nothing is that much copyright protected as the music of the LotR movies. Even the songs without any music, so we had to rely on the native SpellForce 3 music who doesn’t really stand behind that much if you ask me.

[The full original soundtrack can be found here]

To continue on this road: You have made following uncommon note at your modpack:

This is a non-profit community fan project. All content of this “SpellForce 3 - Lord of the Rings Mod Pack” (SF3 LotR-Pack) is created by normal SpellForce 3 users and fans without breaking the copyright or damaging the original publisher of SpellForce 3 or Warner Bros. Entertainment.

Do you think your work comes into conflict with intellectual property rights? And do you fear sometimes that ‘SpellForce 3 - Lord of the Rings Mod Pack’ might share the same fate as the Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim mod ‘Middle Earth Roleplaying Project’ which got a C&D order and had to stop developement?
Answer: Yeah like mentioned before, we planned and created this mod entirely on an allowed copyright level and with that we have to do some “security mechanics”. We are very proud that we created a mod inspired (not based) on the LotR universe that does not break a single copyright law even if they wanted to sue us.

This mod counts as private made and private used content and is allowed by current EU-Copyright law to be shared and used under these conditions. They key behind this is to make every user agree to these terms. For that we developed our own installation software where all users have to agree our EULA to install and use this mod.

With that method and the other steps we did to make this mod copyright compatible, we don’t have to fear any copyright claim.

One mistake that many make is to use original footage of the movies for their character portraits. These are of cause copyright protected and the reason mostly that these types of mods get pulled down. Luckily we have have a 2D artist in our team who created fitting unit-icons to our redesigned units.

And everything that is self-created, cannot be copyright claimed by others and opens even more possibilities for your project.

Do you really think that any of the players will even read the EULA? I would bet a whole Dwarven hoard that you could write in there that by downloading the mod the player is obligated to worship Morgoth twice per day and no one would notice it.
Answer: Not a bad idea! Morgoth could use more followers... , just kidding. I know that less then 1% of all people read EULA’s and even less truly care for them, but this is mostly a security feature for us to ensure that the one “person” out there who hunts down such mods has no success in putting an end to it. That’s the reason for most EULA’s, be secured for the one unique case that can happen.

In all the discussions I have been involved around the copyright issues I think it have been mostly the Germans thinking about it. Do you think it is some kind of ‘German Angst’ in the LotR modding community?
Answer: Oh... ehm... let me talk to our lawyer first...

To be honest, I don’t think this has something to do with nationality or political views at all. Everyone who does their projects with a plan will come to the question “What will the future bring?” at some point and making sure that the answer is not “It gets killed!” later on. So everyone who plans their projects and does researches will most likely also want that it will stand the tides of time and ensure that it will last as long as possible.

So yeah, to make it short, if “German Angst” means being prepared for what can happen in the future based on experience of the past, then I guess everyone with a good project plan has “German Angst”.

“A man who builds a house without a roof, is not brave but an idiot.”

And after all this copyright researches, you still haven’t found a better name than ‘SpellForce 3 - Lord of the Rings Mod Pack’ for your mod? Shouldn’t be the use of the title ‘Lord of the Rings’ the one copyrighted thing most people will think of first?
Answer: Yes most people think that, but it doesn’t if it doesn’t stand alone. You see that before “Lord of the Rings” always stands “SpellForce 3” and behind it always “Mod Pack”. With that method we don’t use the trademark but describe something in association with it and that is legal.

That’s in fact something new for me, I wouldn’t have thought that. Back to your mod-pack though: Sadly it has currently only around 170 downloads at moddb, so it seems to have a rather little playerbase. How are you gathering feedback for your mod? Are there some very active players with a lot of suggestions how to improve it?
Answer: Well we luckily have a little more then that. On NexusMods we have also 100+ and more then 800+ on Github with some shares, but yes it could be more. One reason could be that the activity for SpellForce 3 is this year quite low since most players still wait for the last features of the game to be completed or just wait for all episodes of the mod to be completed and to play it when the mod is 100% complete.

Thankfully we have some very dedicated fans that gave us a lot of productive feedback and even some praise.

At which moments do you get the feeling that you have done a good job at your mod?
Answer: When the first players give the feedback on the preview screenshots alone: “Is there a new LotR game I missed?” or “Wow I wished there would be a full game out of that.”.

These are the quotes that make me “pad my shoulder” and say “good job”.

Which problems occured for you while working at this project? How did you solve them?
Answer: To say that it is impossible to work with official/given “Modding tools” and editor would not be true, but it’s not very consumer friendly and quality control more than just missing. You would need to have experience with other more advanced level editor and game engines to know how to handle this one. Not impossible, but very unhandy.

The developers always say that the engine is quite powerful and has almost no limits. This is wrong in every point of view. The engine lacks optimization, a lot of features are missing and has boundaries that the SF3-Developers will never talk about or simply never admit.

What issues with the engine and bugs of the editor made the project to be closed down? First the limited map size and maximum asset/object count. Even when the developers of SF3 said that you don’t have any real limitations to the world building in SF3, there are a lot of which you will only see when it is too late and your entire project crashes and corrupts. When you manage to create a world with size bigger then 80x80 panels or use too many assets/objects, then it can/will corrupt your project and make it unloadable with destroying all your work on that project. This was expanded/semi fixed back in October 2018 by the official developers in combination with the project “[Quest] Dracos Island” that had a size of 110x110 panels, but they didn’t expand the other functions that rely on that like the visual rendering and visual creation.

The second big issue has been the Navigation-Mesh limitation and setting errors. The Navigation-Mesh is very important in the logic of SF3-Maps. This is the grid that units move on and all movement-logic is based on. This very important logic-mechanic is hardcoded limited in the engine and editor of SpellForce 3. If you have a bigger map that goes above the planned size of campaign maps, then you simply “run out of NavigationMesh” and whole areas of your map can not be walked like an invisible wall.

You have the option to streatch the NavigationMesh but that makes it buggy and units will not fit some smaller ways, even if visualy they would fit perfectly. An other more critical issue is that sometimes the NavigationMesh will not be set at all, making the map useless and unplayable. This one is the one bug that stopped the production of the 2nd episode of the SF3 LotR-Mod-Pack and the entire project with it.

We informed the Developers (Grimlore games) about the issues and bugs with their game and engine, but sadly with no fix until this day. They started to work on another game (stand alone addon to base SpellForce 3), so I guess their priority on this one is not very high. We asked them before the start of this project about limitations and the answers we got resulted in being totally wrong. A lesson very hard learned. We shouldn’t have blindly trusted them and skipped to create a technical prototype first.

Do you think your modding experience influenced you in any way? Maybe, your professional career or your studies? Was it purely a hobby for you?
Answer: Yes totally. Modding started in me the urge to create something new out of something. To create my own solutions and not rely on given solution, mostly when you have ideas to make all way better. This made me became a software developer.

Working on a mod is hard work and time consuming. Isn’t there sometimes a moment at which you think: ‘Nah, it’s not worth all the trouble, I rather play mods than help developing them.’? If time would be set back, would you put into your project the same amount of work again?
Answer: If I had the knowledge about the truth of the game engine, then I would have planned and designed the mod-pack differently with my team and would have made different decisions, but we would have made the mod, since that was our goal from the very start. But I hope others get inspired by our mod to create their own mods and share them with everyone.

What is your favourite LotR mod? Why do you like it? Also, is there any project that caught your attention lately?
Answer: Sadly I don’t know the name anymore, but the one of my childhood of UT2004 has a very special place in my hearth until this very day. Call it nostalgia but it just shows the quality of a mod when it can hold up its value over more then 15 years.

When it comes to the latest releases/productions I have to say that I will have an eye on TLD Overhaul. Thanks to the news of this group I won’t miss it.

What is your overall impression of the LotR modding community in general?
Answer: It is one of the most dedicated groups with passion and hearth out there. A lot of groups only exist for a small amount of time (mostly as long as a hype lasts), but this community stands above generations. Helpful and kind, these are things you will miss a lot in other communities now a day.

Finally: Would you like to say anything to creative people who are reading this interview at the moment and might think about bringing LotR into a game?
Answer: If you have an idea and can bring it to paper then do it. I know a lot of people fear copyright claims and other stuff, but there is always a way. Don’t let yourself be talked down. If you make a plan and do the research there is always a way to create it. You don’t have to be afraid of copyright, as long you just work along the law. Don’t copy but create by yourself and most copyright issues are gone. LotR mods can make a game way better and even give it complete new options to play it. If you have a favourite game, then try to bring some LotR into it.

As long you planned and researched everything before (without exceptions) there is mostly nothing you have to fear. It doesn’t have to be big steps from the start. Simple smaller texture or map mods can always be a start.

And who knows, maybe your mod can be the beginning of something very big.

Oh and have enough HDD space free for your project. Mostly it comes down to 10:1 used HDD space compared to the final project. There is a lot that will blow your project folder.

Thank you for the interview!