Chaos SM Challenge - Patch 1.83 Thread - Ultimate Apocalypse Mod (DOW SS) for Dawn of War

I propose a Chaos SM challenge:
Win in Gor'Hael Crater free-for-all against Necrons and Tyranids in right/left and Inquisition in front.

Reqs:
Hard AI
Annihilate
Apocalypse Rules
Builders
Nuclear War

The initial resources and resource rate you want but I double challenge you to be Standard/Standard

100% of the times I played here ( if the units of the AI dont get stuck ) I lose and the Necrons always win.

The purpose of this challenge is to share strategies between all the Chaos SM god players ( yes, I know there are Chaos Gods out there ) of this mod and either show how weak are Chaos SM right now or show how wrong and bad strategist I am

If you want, submit your videos winning.

why nuclear war?

nuclear war makes no sense cuz even in ffa AI mostly nukes player sooo

Because it's a very small map in which without attacking any base the maximum Strategic point you can capture are 3, 2 relics and 1 Critical point.
In this challenge, Chaos is the only faction that cannot build structures that produce all their resources so, in the double challenge with standard/standard resources, I think Nuclear War gives you reasons to invest in nukes if you think is an option.
Anyways, I have played this challenge with this restrictions for almost two weeks and the AI and I never did them because there's no time for them. In 30-45 min you are either dead or you know you are going to lose.

But ok, if I see more people complaining about Nuclear War, we can make it optional

I decided to give this a go. As someone who normally plays on insane, this was actually extremely challenging. I think the real issue is the necrons, though. Even with the generator decay, it seems they're still pretty OP

meh necron AI cheats

meh necron AI cheats

Well given that they're bound to all the same rules as the player and that they don't gain a resource bonus on hard, there's no way for them to actually cheat; they're OP. Granted, they're better than before, but they still have some huge advantages, especially on small maps.

Wallabe wrote:

meh necron AI cheats

Well given that they're bound to all the same rules as the player and that they don't gain a resource bonus on hard, there's no way for them to actually cheat; they're OP. Granted, they're better than before, but they still have some huge advantages, especially on small maps.

Totally agree, they have advantages, their turret and obelisk ranges are huge and in my opinion that's what make them so powerful in small maps like this one or, the other possibility is that Chaos need some range/sight-range bufs.

Did you win, Wallabe?

I took out the Tyranids no problem. I had control of half the map when I decided "f*&k it". The necrons were just making the whole thing into such a slog and really sucking the fun out of it. Given the control I had, I probably could've won.

well necron AI micromanagment is more than what a normal player can do with human speed without pausing I think that's cheating. I see them build attack research and do everything at the same time. While as a human I am bound by physical c hence cheating.

Wallabe wrote:

I took out the Tyranids no problem. I had control of half the map when I decided "f*&k it". The necrons were just making the whole thing into such a slog and really sucking the fun out of it. Given the control I had, I probably could've won.

What did you do to prevent them from coming through the relic point? And how to reflect the goddamn turrets destroying everything from their side?

That's what mainly bugs me and make me lose.

In small maps if it's 1v1 necron won't be op in small FFA maps though it's just easier to pile up turrets all together making necrons stronger but imo you could still destroy turrets with defilers especially if you switch them to fully range mode

madah123 wrote:

In small maps if it's 1v1 necron won't be op in small FFA maps though it's just easier to pile up turrets all together making necrons stronger but imo you could still destroy turrets with defilers especially if you switch them to fully range mode

The long range Defiler strategy is one of the best options but the main problem is that you get Defilers in Tier 2 and Necrons get Heavy Gauss Turrets in Tier 1. Also I have to point the fact that those heavy turrets are quite cheap for the range/damage they make and can be upgraded with researches, while I think that even adding to the turret's cost the cost of it researches, it's final cost is cheaper than the cost of one Defiler for damage/resistance/range.

If you play in that map with standard intial resources and standard rate you will understand how unfair is this.

I repelled them by having a metric ton of slaanesh turrets pointed at the pass. Keeping their turrets off me was kind of a losing battle. Eye of the warp from two bases helped a lot though.

madah123 wrote:

In small maps if it's 1v1 necron won't be op in small FFA maps though it's just easier to pile up turrets all together making necrons stronger but imo you could still destroy turrets with defilers especially if you switch them to fully range mode

I don't know why you're so dead set against acknowledging it. The necrons economy is extremely OP. Unless they get rushed, they have a humungous advantage on small maps. It's not the turrets, those just make them even more ridiculous. And once the pylons are up, taking out their turrets becomes a lot tricker. It's that they can build generators at a rate that far exceeds the req income of other races. Other races are, at least to an extent, limited in their resource income by the map. Necrons have no such limits. Obelisks merely make the process easier. Yeah, their economy did just get hit with a nerf in the form of decay, but it doesn't seem to quite be enough. Contrary to what you seem to believe, beating the necrons isn't as simple as "Do X and Y and win." Sure, they have some vulnerabilities, but unless you're getting rushed from a top-tier pvp player, any success exploiting them is typically the fault of the player or ai controlling them.

Now, I could have taken out the necrons, but it just wasn't worth it. I play on insane, and these hard necrons just sucked all the fun out of the game. I'm not going to spend 30min-1hr on a miserable game just to prove I can beat an enemy who should be a piece of cake for me.

Idk You claim opness but I only see it in AI I fight necron players and Play necrons, Yes I have easier time playing necrons than some factions but not that much, and I think balance should be for multiplayer not for AI. I don't see the necrons always winning in multiplayer games especially if there is inquisition/demons/SM/DE.

I have beaten other necrons as necrons and as faction in some cases it's harder in some cases it's easier but after most recent nerfs to econ and sentry pylons I just don't feel necrons are that strong anymore. They aren't weak but vs demons/inquisition / nids/ DE they are equally matched, but it really depends on maps, allies, settings etc.

If you wanna show imbalance it should be by statistics. Find me necron players that are always winning matches. In most fights I go to Necrons do win but statistically I feel demons always end up winning then nids.

Inquisition depends on resource rate and map but they also win more often.

madah123 wrote:

Idk You claim opness but I only see it in AI I fight necron players and Play necrons, Yes I have easier time playing necrons than some factions but not that much, and I think balance should be for multiplayer not for AI. I don't see the necrons always winning in multiplayer games especially if there is inquisition/demons/SM/DE.

I have beaten other necrons as necrons and as faction in some cases it's harder in some cases it's easier but after most recent nerfs to econ and sentry pylons I just don't feel necrons are that strong anymore. They aren't weak but vs demons/inquisition / nids/ DE they are equally matched, but it really depends on maps, allies, settings etc.

If you wanna show imbalance it should be by statistics. Find me necron players that are always winning matches. In most fights I go to Necrons do win but statistically I feel demons always end up winning then nids.

Inquisition depends on resource rate and map but they also win more often.

Yup, silly me citing pve in regards to a pve challenge. If i'm wrong, please prove it.

Now, the economy is better, but if you make it to mid game you still have a huge advantage in resources. No one is your equal. That being said, losing is still possible if you don't properly manage your overabundant resources. I'm not surprised you can't beat demons or nids. You seem not to grasp the value of anti-infantry units, which would leave you completely vulnerable.

I am saying there shouldnt be PvE balance in favor of pvp balance. Also I tried your match and the nids are winning the necrons I didn't manage to win but necrons aren't that much granted that i totally devoted to destroying them early

tactical explosive op vs necron AI

Also that i notice when it comes to abilities the AI always used it on human player so FFA isnt' a good idea vs nids and necrons.

I can say that in ffa it's really hard cause if you rush necrons you will lose to others, so idk if that's considered unbalanced or that the inquisition and tyrandis barely fought each other idk i feel even in FFA AI focused player more. I was able to hold off nids with sacrifice but not for long 1500 is so much lol. inquisition ignored necrons and brought landraider to me.

Wallabe wrote:

madah123 wrote:

Idk You claim opness but I only see it in AI I fight necron players and Play necrons, Yes I have easier time playing necrons than some factions but not that much, and I think balance should be for multiplayer not for AI. I don't see the necrons always winning in multiplayer games especially if there is inquisition/demons/SM/DE.

I have beaten other necrons as necrons and as faction in some cases it's harder in some cases it's easier but after most recent nerfs to econ and sentry pylons I just don't feel necrons are that strong anymore. They aren't weak but vs demons/inquisition / nids/ DE they are equally matched, but it really depends on maps, allies, settings etc.

If you wanna show imbalance it should be by statistics. Find me necron players that are always winning matches. In most fights I go to Necrons do win but statistically I feel demons always end up winning then nids.

Inquisition depends on resource rate and map but they also win more often.

Yup, silly me citing pve in regards to a pve challenge. If i'm wrong, please prove it. Now if you mean my claims from the other thread, being in a pvp game doesn't magically change the fundamentals i've demonstrated.

Now, the economy is better, but if you make it to mid game you still have a huge advantage in resources. No one is your equal. That being said, losing is still possible if you don't properly manage your overabundant resources. I'm not surprised you can't beat demons or nids. You seem not to grasp the value of anti-infantry units, which would leave you vulnerable.

Plus, you can't rely on raw statistics from pvp. While it's just as important as pve, there are too many variables that can't be controlled. You need to look at individual games, the circumstances, and the responses. Trust me. I may not be the best at pvp, but i play with some of the very best

I lost but in terms of actual economy and score here how it is

I dont see necrons with huge economy difference, also I used the tactical bomb a bit late if I did it earlier (cuz i had to use sacrifice because of nids rushing me) I would have damaged necron economy more

also this is the third time i play csm in THB

First off, my apologies for the sort of double post

madah123 wrote:

I am saying there shouldnt be PvE balance in favor of pvp balance. Also I tried your match and the nids are winning the necrons I didn't manage to win but necrons aren't that much granted that i totally devoted to destroying them early

tactical explosive op vs necron AI

Also that i notice when it comes to abilities the AI always used it on human player so FFA isnt' a good idea vs nids and necrons.

I can say that in ffa it's really hard cause if you rush necrons you will lose to others, so idk if that's considered unbalanced or that the inquisition and tyrandis barely fought each other idk i feel even in FFA AI focused player more. I was able to hold off nids with sacrifice but not for long 1500 is so much lol. inquisition ignored necrons and brought landraider to me.

First of all, pve and pvp balance are not mutually exclusive. Balancing one balances the other. The difference is that pve can test "by the book" playing better because its a controlled environment. PVP is good for finding stuff it takes a player to think of.

Second of all, your post about the necron economy proves nothing. If you went out of your way to cripple them early, you skewed the data. If I kill an opponent, their economy stops entirely. Does that mean that their economy is underpowered? However, the fact that you targeted them shows that you know how ridiculous they can get, proving that you know they're OP.

As for the tactical explosive...honestly, sinking that much req into unlocking in just to beat the necrons will ultimately cripple you because it's so damn expensive. Any opponent you're able to use that technique against and not totally screw yourself over against is probably a poor opponent. Hell, if you're wasting that much req (over 3000), you probably should've gotten steamrolled before you even got to use it.

Plus, the tactical explosive is kind of OP against everyone. Forcing your opponent to rebuild half their base is going to set them back a lot.

ok i tried it again I killed the necrons so far but not winning vs nids and inq it's hard tho

can't beat inquisition tooooo op

inquisition way outresource necrons if you aim necrons first

i left tho i mean I didnt continue he brought venerable dreadnaughts i had 1 mutilator 1 oblitarotr 1 chaos lord in terminator armor and i couldnt seem to kill them so i rq but maybe coulda won idk

I just feel inquisition is same as necrons if you don't cripple it's op aactually more op. idk how to kill inq units really they outmatch mine in everyway (as csm) then again I am the noobiest csm player

thing is beating necron wasn't that hard cuz i always play necrons but idk how to beat idh in general cause I don't play them D;

madah123 wrote:

ok i tried it again I killed the necrons so far but not winning vs nids and inq it's hard tho

can't beat inquisition tooooo op

inquisition way outresource necrons if you aim necrons first

i left tho i mean I didnt continue he brought venerable dreadnaughts i had 1 mutilator 1 oblitarotr 1 chaos lord in terminator armor and i couldnt seem to kill them so i rq but maybe coulda won idk

I just feel inquisition is same as necrons if you don't cripple it's op aactually more op. idk how to kill inq units really they outmatch mine in everyway (as csm) then again I am the noobiest csm player

thing is beating necron wasn't that hard cuz i always play necrons but idk how to beat idh in general cause I don't play them D;

Killing necrons early, especially on a mode as easy as hard, isn't hard, no one is arguing that. It's mid-late game that gets crazy.

Second, your claim "inquisition way outresource necrons if you aim necrons first" isn't even remotely reliable. If one player/ai is killed earlier in the game, they stop producing resources. That's just how the game works, I don't see how that isn't brutally obvious. Players/ai generate more resources the longer they're in the game. Also, rain comes from the sky. This is an apples to oranges comparison at best.

I am saying inquisition mid/late game is easy if left too. check resources inquisition got 88k while i gathered 45k

How isn't it clear? You say leave necrons they become op. so go for necr inquisition they become op. what's the difference?

I dont think chaos are weak though I think inquisition is op venerable dreadnaught + paladins even though I had all 3 of necron points + both relics and nobody had the nids point inquisition out resources me and got paladins + dreadnaughts lol.

Idk how to kill venerables nor do I know how to kill paladins.

Here's a try with Standard/Standard resources: CSMChallengeTry1

It's a game aborted because the Inquisition's late game is pretty OP as madah123 said, they were the only left and, even though I had a lot of Defilers bombing everything through the distance, my resource rate was lame due to lots of mistakes so my view is that I had mostly lost but maybe there was a very little chance.

I never came this far using this strategy but watching the replay I think is because the Necrons bugged a little not making vehicles till pretty late and not building back some generators.

Also I noticed what madah123 said about the AI using the abilities almost every time on the player. It's true that Inquisition, for example, can see almost all the map in their mid/late game, but as I see in the replay, they used abilities with a 100% accuracy without seeing me. This is one of the things that should change in the AI. But anyways, I dont think that's enough reason to say that cheats because the harm they did me this way was very unnoticeable.

Can you upload some replays? It's good to see new strategies.

And also give it a try in Standard/Standard, I think things are worse this way for Chaos in this challenge.

for some reason the replay button was grey for me idk why i have to retry and see D;

i think it's cuz i saved once and continued later

caribpa wrote:

Here's a try with Standard/Standard resources: CSMChallengeTry1

It's a game aborted because the Inquisition's late game is pretty OP as madah123 said, they were the only left and, even though I had a lot of Defilers bombing everything through the distance, my resource rate was lame due to lots of mistakes so my view is that I had mostly lost but maybe there was a very little chance.

I never came this far using this strategy but watching the replay I think is because the Necrons bugged a little not making vehicles till pretty late and not building back some generators.

Also I noticed what madah123 said about the AI using the abilities almost every time on the player. It's true that Inquisition, for example, can see almost all the map in their mid/late game, but as I see in the replay, they used abilities with a 100% accuracy without seeing me. This is one of the things that should change in the AI. But anyways, I dont think that's enough reason to say that cheats because the harm they did me this way was very unnoticeable.

Can you upload some replays? It's good to see new strategies.

And also give it a try in Standard/Standard, I think things are worse this way for Chaos in this challenge.

What about nids didn't they kill your heretics with their stupid ability thingie? =.=

but my strategy vs necrons is bolter turret spam cause AI keeps losing his infantry easy to that especially his heroes when his overseer/necron lord dies I build turret all around them, so they die as soon as they wake up and end up being useless. switch defiler to range + do arti mod attack monolith, bring chaos lord fully upgraded and use tactical bomb whenever I can since he stacks generators. For nids I try to save up money to use sacrifice, but I was nurgle I feel that didn't help much. I did same strategy to kill nids though, but I had chaos lord in terminator armor at that point took necron points inquisition had bunch of land raiders I destroyed them with tactical bomb + chaos lord + defilers then went back to kill nids again spam tactical bomb.... and sacrifice he had 1 uber fex but the inquisition killed it for me. I tried to take the nids points but inquisition didnt let me, but I also didn't let him, but somehow inquisition got 3 points and 2 relics I got 6 points and 2 relics, yet he way outresourced me. he built shrine to the emperor which I destroyed with defilers, and build nuke center which I also destroyed, yet he still had paladins and dreadnaughts. i had obliterators but they died so I didn't rebuild them. was hoping to get helldrake but he just pressed on the attack, so I aborted.

I did do it in standard standard, just no nuclear war.

Edited by: madah123

Nice explanation, madah123. From where do you get that many resources? Because are needed a huge amount of them for fully upgrade the commanders and I feel it's like a waste if you're not in tier 4 with the last resource research. I usually got stuck in tier 3 'cause they start pressing a lot in this challenge.

What's better, to level up the commanders till 8 or to invest in the terminator armor? I dont know but I feel like that terminator armor is a scam, sure, overpowered commander but he can die and if he does, 1100-something req for bring him back. I feel that because the Necrons can have the Nightbringer and Deceiver ascension forever after paying it once ( 850e ) without changing the commanders price and they are also overpowered if they have the health/damage researches.

Btw, did you know the Inquisition get req from those skyscrapers? that's the reason they outresourced you.

In my opinion, Chaos should have a better sight, the other races in this challenge can see almost all the map and take advantage of that meanwhile you have to rely on those tier 2 turrets addons which gives something but not enough.