AI Resource Rate Thread - Ultimate Apocalypse Mod (DOW SS) for Dawn of War

We all know that the AI can be really dumb as well as cheat, play without fog and micro perfectly but what I recently realized is that their resource rate change depending of their level:

• Easy - They get less resources than the player (not sure if 50% or 100% less).
• Standard - They get the same resources than the player.
• Hard - Same than the player.
• Harder - I think they get a minimum of 50% more than the player.
• Insane - They get 100% more than the player.

You can actually check this if you go into Sandbox mode, but don't look at the number of the rate (for example +20 with only the HQ in standard rate, because it will be similar), look at the number of resources they are gathering and compare them after some minutes with the ones of the faction the player selected.

I know this was made on purpose (maybe since vanilla Soulstorm) but in my opinion this should change (if it can) because in UA the AI is better than in Soulstorm and it will get better in the next patch.

So I think that, by default, every difficulty level should get the same resource rate than the player and then have the chance to change the rate of the AI via Addons, for example one Addon to decrease the AI rate in a 100%, another to decrease it in a 50%, as well as Addons to increase the rate (maybe they can get stacked?).

I think this will open a path of "handicap" for every difficulty level as well as making the games against high difficulty AI one step closer to simulate a human gameplay in the default mode.

In my case I am at that point where I destroy Harder AIs without problems but I get destroyed by Insane because of the resource rate they get and strategically there's nothing I can do in maps without many SPs.

It really depends. Right now, I'd say the resources make things a tad bit harder than they should, but even insane is playable. The question is what they end up doing in the future. Apparently Cylarne is still tweaking the AI to make it, in his words, "truly unbeatable", and I think he means it. The problem is that if the ai is ever truly unbeatable, it makes the difficulty unplayable. And if that happens, in my mind insane will effectively be gone, with the only way to win is to have only one ai (or less) for every two human players. And so if that happens, I would absolutely want the ability to tone it down, just to the point where it became a difficult but surmountable obstacle.

Wallabe wrote:

It really depends. Right now, I'd say the resources make things a tad bit harder than they should, but even insane is playable. The question is what they end up doing in the future. Apparently Cylarne is still tweaking the AI to make it, in his words, "truly unbeatable", and I think he means it. The problem is that if the ai is ever truly unbeatable, it makes the difficulty unplayable. And if that happens, in my mind insane will effectively be gone, with the only way to win is to have only one ai (or less) for every two human players. And so if that happens, I would absolutely want the ability to tone it down, just to the point where it became a difficult but surmountable obstacle.

You can handle Insane AI depending of the SPs in the map and its size, but in maps with fewer SPs actually you can do it with some factions, I can do it with Necrons, Nids, Daemons and sometimes with IDH (turtling with Necrons and rushing with the rest), but it's impossible to do it in those maps with for example SM, Orks or Tau and the only reason is because they simple outresource you instantly.

I know that Insane AI uses different advanced tactics than Harder so it's a pity you can't properly create counters or survive more than 15min with some factions because the AI gets x2 resources than the player.

Also I guess Cylarne is tweaking the behaviour and tactics of the "'truly unbeatable AI" and not increasing its resource rate.

caribpa wrote:

Wallabe wrote:

It really depends. Right now, I'd say the resources make things a tad bit harder than they should, but even insane is playable. The question is what they end up doing in the future. Apparently Cylarne is still tweaking the AI to make it, in his words, "truly unbeatable", and I think he means it. The problem is that if the ai is ever truly unbeatable, it makes the difficulty unplayable. And if that happens, in my mind insane will effectively be gone, with the only way to win is to have only one ai (or less) for every two human players. And so if that happens, I would absolutely want the ability to tone it down, just to the point where it became a difficult but surmountable obstacle.

You can handle Insane AI depending of the SPs in the map and its size, but in maps with fewer SPs actually you can do it with some factions, I can do it with Necrons, Nids, Daemons and sometimes with IDH (turtling with Necrons and rushing with the rest), but it's impossible to do it in those maps with for example SM, Orks or Tau and the only reason is because they simple outresource you instantly.

I know that Insane AI uses different advanced tactics than Harder so it's a pity you can't properly create counters or survive more than 15min with some factions because the AI gets x2 resources than the player.

Also I guess Cylarne is tweaking the behaviour and tactics of the "'truly unbeatable AI" and not increasing its resource rate.

Dude, the less SP's in a map, the easier it is, because it reduces the ai's advantage. Let's say an LP grants +18 req per for players. With 5 points each, insane ai generate +90 req more than players. With say 10 points each, insane ai generates +180 req more than players.

I definitely disagree with some matchups being "impossible". Beating Necrons may be impossible sometimes, but just because they're mad OP. Orks and all the other swarm races tend to have big advantage against insane comps.

The big keys are acquiring resources and spending them wisely. On the topic of the latter, it's important to remember the ai aren't that aggressive about early map control. Capture the points farthest away from you and move you way in; you can easily match or even out-generate the ai as long as you spend smartly. Spending resources is mainly about not buying units and researches you don't absolutely need. And avoiding turrets. Turrets are such a trap on insane difficulty. I can't even tell you how many insane games I've played where I got my ass kicked, went "wait a second, I'm building turrets again", and won when I restarted and didn't build turrets till late game.

Wallabe wrote:

Dude, the less SP's in a map, the easier it is, because it reduces the ai's advantage. Let's say an LP grants +18 req per for players. With 5 points each, insane ai generate +90 req more than players. With say 10 points each, insane ai generates +180 req more than players.

But also the less SP's in a map, the less req you are going to gather and if you lose one LP, it's not likely you will take it back instantly.

Wallabe wrote:

I definitely disagree with some matchups being "impossible". Beating Necrons may be impossible sometimes, but just because they're mad OP. Orks and all the other swarm races tend to have big advantage against insane comps.

Try some matches with Tau against IDH, CSM and ultimately Daemons and Nids (forget Necrons) .

Note: I normally play free for all 4 players (sometimes 1vs1) with initial standard resources and standard rates. Maybe it is easier with high resource rates.

Btw, thanks for the tips.

caribpa wrote:

Wallabe wrote:

Dude, the less SP's in a map, the easier it is, because it reduces the ai's advantage. Let's say an LP grants +18 req per for players. With 5 points each, insane ai generate +90 req more than players. With say 10 points each, insane ai generates +180 req more than players.

But also the less SP's in a map, the less req you are going to gather and if you lose one LP, it's not likely you will take it back instantly.

Don't get me wrong, there are downsides to small maps. But here's the thing. The Insane ai is pretty damn easy to outsmart. The one thing it has going for it is its resource buff. Mitigating that helps swing the game in your favor.

caribpa wrote:

Wallabe wrote:

I definitely disagree with some matchups being "impossible". Beating Necrons may be impossible sometimes, but just because they're mad OP. Orks and all the other swarm races tend to have big advantage against insane comps.

Try some matches with Tau against IDH, CSM and ultimately Daemons and Nids (forget Necrons) .

I may try a couple 1v1s and see how they go.

caribpa wrote:

Note: I normally play free for all 4 players (sometimes 1vs1) with initial standard resources and standard rates. Maybe it is easier with high resource rates.

Btw, thanks for the tips.

I play standard resources too. Personally, I'd avoid high resource rates at insane for the same reasons that bigger maps can be dangerous; any bonus you receive is doubled by the ai.

Though I will say, ffa's can be pretty damn tricky on insane. Personally I prefer 2v2's or the occasional 1v1. The big challenge in an ffa, which I'm sure you've realized, is that you have to treat the comps like a hornet's nest. You do NOT want to be the one to poke it unless you've got the right gear on. But if you leave them alone, they seem to have a higher tendency to just not bother with you and fight amongst themselves.

And no problem!

Wallabe wrote:

Though I will say, ffa's can be pretty damn tricky on insane. Personally I prefer 2v2's or the occasional 1v1. The big challenge in an ffa, which I'm sure you've realized, is that you have to treat the comps like a hornet's nest. You do NOT want to be the one to poke it unless you've got the right gear on. But if you leave them alone, they seem to have a higher tendency to just not bother with you and fight amongst themselves.

Yes, that's exactly what happens. You know, the reason this happens is what made me created this thread

I know Cylarne told me some time ago that UA is oriented to big maps with a lot of resources, so maybe some players don't really notice the huge amount of resources the AI get in the higher levels if they always play in big maps and turtle as long as they get what they consider right to tier up fastly.

I'm saying this because almost in all the videos I watched of Cylarne and his crew, they turtle (and play with high resource rates almost always). I'm sure they know about the rates the AI gather in Insane but some other players may not (I realized this in this week) and ragequit when they don't know what to do against it.

But I really think that, concerning the AI, being able to modify its resource rate will make more possible those ffa Insane AI games in all kind of maps, at least to the players that aren't able to micro as fast as others but also like challenges, as well for the players who would like to fight against the AI that gathers 150% more resources over them:D

I realized I drew the wrong conclusion about maps actually. It's all about sp distribution. The more points not on any side's base, the easier (ie, maps where map control is more possible). For some reason that seems to correlate to smaller maps a lot.

Edited by: Wallabe

Not much to add to the technicalities, but I'll just say that I only play against the AI. Being able to customize some aspect of it, like the resource rate, would be great.

Wallabe wrote:

I realized I drew the wrong conclusion about maps actually. It's all about sp distribution. The more points not on any side's base, the easier (ie, maps where map control is more possible). For some reason that seems to correlate to smaller maps a lot.

Totally makes sense. One of my favourite maps for ffa is Gor'Hael Crater (4 players) and in my view is one of the hardest as each base has 3 SPs inside, 2 relics shared with the enemy bases at the sides and one Critical point in the middle of all. So I have the impression that if I can win in that map with a non-melee dedicated faction, I've master the faction. Basically what makes this map that hard is what you said about the SPs distribution. I only manage to win there with melee faction (obvious advantage) against Insane AI. What prevents me from winning with other factions is the x2 resource rate the AI gets as you can only capture a maximum of 3 SPs, 2 relics (but hard to maintain) and the Critical Point, while the AI gets with only 3 SPs what you would with 6 so its likely you are always in disadvantage. With melee factions you can early rush efficiently as everything is pretty close.

Galrick wrote:

Not much to add to the technicalities, but I'll just say that I only play against the AI. Being able to customize some aspect of it, like the resource rate, would be great.

I hope this proposal can be implemented as I guess you are also at the point where sadly Harder AI don't suppose a challenge anymore and Insane tend not to play fair although in some maps and with some factions can be handled.