Protoss Tech tree alternation Thread - SC Revolution Mod for StarCraft

Switched Citadel of Adun with Cybernetic Core.
Cybernetic Core grants air upgrades, with is strange, because first air units come in mid game. At the moment you build CC, you have no access to aircraft's.
Cybernetic Core develop Leg Enhancement, Singularity Charge and Overload upgrades.

Citadel of Adun allow to produce early-game High Templar and is pass to Advanced buildings.
High Templar has starting spell Hallucination, which in early game will be very useful, due to creating decoy target that will suck enemy attacks. It would be innovative, not-direct early unit support. Also early hallucination is great scouting tool.

As upgrade, High Templar can gain Blink [Psionic Transfer]. This allow HT to be used for scouting purpose and for escapes. Also for map scouting, would be good if Blink not required to see destination location, to traverse up-cliffs. Thematically psionic teleport fit Templar very well.

High Templar require Templar Archive to gain transform into Archon skill. Templar Archive: allow Dark Templar, Archon and Dark Archon, together with Psionic Storm upgrade for HTemplar.

Also after few game Sentry with Blink, has rather exploitable tactics with dancing around attacking force. With early greater range and high burst dmg, its OP vs Zealot or Zerglings rush. I await enemy attack in base. Then jump at the units back. Melee units follow me. I run away and come back. This tactics dont feel right.
Moddb.com

Sentry - req. Shield Battery. 5 range early damage unit, with Plasma Surge: range 3, target unit recover +50 Shield, but Sentry lose shields and cannot attack for the duration of cooldown. Upgrade: Phase Reactor - sentry dont lose his own shield when doing Plasma Surge.

Sentry Plasma surge suppose to be last resort, rescue skill. You disable single Sentry from fight to gain few second for escape with your endangered unit. Also the 3 range force player to plan this skill use ahead, potentially reducing micro and increase skill use planning (need to take into account that sentry need time to come closer).

Dragoon become mid unit. Produce in Robotic Facility. Required Cybernetic Core. His skill Overload required upgrade.

Warden - this unit looks quite majestic, would welcome if become late unit.
Two Sentry could merged into single Warden (same system like with Archon), if Arbiter Tribunal is build. Proposed Sentry Plasma Surge, would be like upgraded to healing version at Warden. Sentry temporary attack losing => permanent no attack abilities. Hovering => Flying.
So then, Warden would not be produced in Robotic Facility.

Also for gameplay reason: Corsair could required Observatory to be build in Stargate. I doesn't have believable explanation for that . But access to each unit would be gained gradually. Which, I believe, is what it should be.

Edited by: Łagi

I have planned sometimes to change the protoss tech tree to allow more flexibility early game.
Personally i would like to have robotics used more as early support (hence the warden)

Proposed Templars: blink will give more survivability. For scouting, hallucination is already a good tool. So i see blink here mostly as an escape mechanism (or to connect a storm into a unreachable position, which may become imba)
Also i dont know if investing 150 gas in early game only for hallucination would be a good incentive.

Sentry's countering melee units:
The sentry drawback is also their high gas cost, if you invest too much in sentries you will get behind tech and upgrades, and less gas for HT and archons.
For its cost It should counter basic units (that also cost only minerals). Vulture also can kite melee small units and cost only minerals

The Warden was designed mostly as an early game support unit. The guardian shield ability is only effective against fast attack/low damage units (like marines, zergling, hydras). Warden Fill a similar gap than the old sentry. The decision to replace the sentry with warden was based on:
-Too many ground spellcasters from gateway (templar, DA, sentry)
-Encourages to go robotics early to support your gateway units before going citadel or stargate. And enfasis on Robotic as the support tree
-Instead of another ground spell caster, make it flyer to synergize also with air compositions.

Cybernetics: While air upgrades comes in a time that you dont have air units, swapping buildings like suggested would force to build an additional building for upgrades if you go air. What i mean, you currently can go directly to air composition without citadel/archives (unless you want to add arbiter). Anyway most of the time you will go citadel for zealot speed.
The Cybernetics core will turn into a weird building unlocking core upgrades of each tech (Air upgrades, zealot speed and access to archives for 2+ upgrades, and dragoon+upgrades from robotics)

Robotics: in vanilla (and in current version of the mod) is mostly for support/specialized units (which i like mostly). Puting a core unit here may complicate unit production, making protoss have to build lot of production buildings (You will need gateways for zealots, starports, and now additional robotics for dragoons)

Options to reduce the overlapping between sentry and dragoon
-Making robotics unlockable after gateway, and move sentry to robotics: so it will be more of a choice to which unit build first, dragoons or sentry, with the drawback that sentries will be expensive due robotics cost and you cant have much production due the need of make more robotics early game
-Make sentries only GtG unit: this will remove some overlapping between units, but at the same time will remove an interesting counter to some compositions (ie against mutalisk): Maybe Make it able to attack air units after a late game upgrade?? (or dragoon may have that behaviour)
-Make dragoons or sentries require citadel (so units come at different tiers, but also limits options early game)
-Return to sentry as a support caster: would leave less space for warden (as it probably have same/similar spells) and protoss already have lot of spell casters. So would need to replace Warden with some Robotic specialized unit?

About merging units: Yes!
From the start of this mod i wanted to add more protoss units formed from merging 2 units (i have also considered merging units from different kinds).
I have considered several combinations, but none fully convinced me or dind found good grp to implement it...
What was planned long ago and i got some work in progress is the Oracle
Fast Flying unit from stargate that have ground concussive attack (for harassment and anti infantry), with some support spells (maybe revelation), and can be merged to form an Arbiter

RavenWolf wrote:

Proposed Templars: blink will give more survivability. For scouting, hallucination is already a good tool. So i see blink here mostly as an escape mechanism (or to connect a storm into a unreachable position, which may become imba)
Also i dont know if investing 150 gas in early game only for hallucination would be a good incentive.

Hallucination dont allow you to cross terrain, as there is no protoss air units early. Hence the Blink twist suggested.
PsionicStorm come late game, when there is abundant of flyers.
Gas cost should be for sure adjusted.
Hallucination: with scarcity of early units, you would want to create decoys to suck damage[in defense esp.] or do risky scout.

but all above HT in not important when you go to sentry/dragoon paragraph

RavenWolf wrote:

The Warden was designed mostly as an early game support unit. The guardian shield ability is only effective against fast attack/low damage units (like marines, zergling, hydras). Warden Fill a similar gap than the old sentry. The decision to replace the sentry with warden was based on:
-Too many ground spellcasters from gateway (templar, DA, sentry)
-Encourages to go robotics early to support your gateway units before going citadel or stargate. And enfasis on Robotic as the support tree
-Instead of another ground spell caster, make it flyer to synergize also with air compositions.

good design. note "enfasis on Robotic as the support tree"

Cybernetics: While air upgrades comes in a time that you dont have air units, swapping buildings like suggested would force to build an additional building for upgrades if you go air. What i mean, you currently can go directly to air composition without citadel/archives (unless you want to add arbiter). Anyway most of the time you will go citadel for zealot speed.
The Cybernetics core will turn into a weird building unlocking core upgrades of each tech (Air upgrades, zealot speed and access to archives for 2+ upgrades, and dragoon+upgrades from robotics)

right. Arbiter req is a good step then? it massively reduce Arbiter in my games appearance.

RavenWolf wrote:

Robotics: in vanilla (and in current version of the mod) is mostly for support/specialized units (which i like mostly). Puting a core unit here may complicate unit production, making protoss have to build lot of production buildings (You will need gateways for zealots, starports, and now additional robotics for dragoons)

Terran has core unit in each facility. Allowing to make viable build going Bio, Mech or Air. And borrowing tools from other tier, so they not becoming obsolete if you focus on another. Zerg can cherry pick what he want, by growing required structure.
Current multi-building Gateway is way to build army core, taking some Gateway "slot" by Robotic isn't a good step for protoss?
Protoss tech tree is most simple, more complication I see as benefit. Also it would result with for more Robotic builds.

RavenWolf wrote:

Options to reduce the overlapping between sentry and dragoon
-Making robotics unlockable after gateway, and move sentry to robotics: so it will be more of a choice to which unit build first, dragoons or sentry, with the drawback that sentries will be expensive due robotics cost and you cant have much production due the need of make more robotics early game
-Make sentries only GtG unit: this will remove some overlapping between units, but at the same time will remove an interesting counter to some compositions (ie against mutalisk): Maybe Make it able to attack air units after a late game upgrade?? (or dragoon may have that behaviour)
-Make dragoons or sentries require citadel (so units come at different tiers, but also limits options early game)
-Return to sentry as a support caster: would leave less space for warden (as it probably have same/similar spells) and protoss already have lot of spell casters. So would need to replace Warden with some Robotic specialized unit?

In this paragraph I use all above collected "post resource":

I have different vision: I see Sentry as early range unit, with AtA attack. Dragoon as mid unit. More powerful and more rare.
but since you're vision will prevail ;

Pushing Sentry to robotic is believable. Dragoon in Gateway also feel right (its cyborg, so not pure mechanical unit, and his bio-part remnant need to come from outside protoss heritage line).

Robotic Facility early access [after Gateway] to Sentry - AA, range unit, with supportive function* (fit to RobFac philosophy).
*Plasma Surge: target recover +50 Shield, but Sentry lose own shields and cannot attack for the duration of cooldown. Upgrade: Phase Reactor - sentry dont lose own shield doing Plasma Surge
Then merge 2x Sentry => Warden feels fine, can even be allowed early as soon as you produce 2 sentries.
Wouldn't Blinking Sentries be too offensive for Robotic Fac? Higher gas cost of Sentry would make mass produce of Dragoons anyway.

This make warden early flying support => we have 3 early unit (zealot, sentry, warden). HTemplar can go back to be late unit.

RobotFac early access: how about Shuttle? limit early transport? (req. Cybernetic Core)?
CyberCore: pass for Stargate & Citadel? or only Stargate? then Dragoon from Citadel has faster access and there will be faster templars also.

Dragoon req. Citadel. Citadel having Gateway units (zealot, Dragoon) upgrades - this I like.
I'm not sure if there is official timing classification, but for me Citadel = mid game (can rush to go there sooner/later but still). And that means, early Sentry, mid Dragoon (as I wish ).

RavenWolf wrote:

About merging units: Yes!
From the start of this mod i wanted to add more protoss units formed from merging 2 units (i have also considered merging units from different kinds).
I have considered several combinations, but none fully convinced me or dind found good grp to implement it...
What was planned long ago and i got some work in progress is the Oracle
Fast Flying unit from stargate that have ground concussive attack (for harassment and anti infantry), with some support spells (maybe revelation), and can be merged to form an Arbiter

you're lack of comment about sentry merge into warden, make me think you dont like this particular idea.

Oracle could boost Observer facility. AtG yes. Concussive yes. I like that.
Maybe its strange for You, but taking into consideration unit name, Observer function in game and merge into Arbiter: I would rather suggest some form of blindness or concealment. As a middle step between ultra Arbiter hiding skills.

Maybe Oracle can have very short view range?

Łagi wrote:

Terran has core unit in each facility. Allowing to make viable build going Bio, Mech or Air. And borrowing tools from other tier, so they not becoming obsolete if you focus on another. Zerg can cherry pick what he want, by growing required structure.
Current multi-building Gateway is way to build army core, taking some Gateway "slot" by Robotic isn't a good step for protoss?
Protoss tech tree is most simple, more complication I see as benefit. Also it would result with for more Robotic builds.

Yes, but i consider that a kind of racial difference. Protoss main army comes from gateway and stargate with support/utility from robotics
If you look at reaver, it have an unique damage upgrade (it dont depends on ground weapons) so is viable with every composition (ofc ground benefit reaver armor and air benefit others robo armor)
Anyway, Im not against to add a combat or core unit in robotics, if that unit isn't mandatory. Fomenting builds that requires to add more robo would be nice.

Sentry may fit robotics as a harass/raider role
The idea of merging sentry to form Warden was also considered during developing. My problems where:
-Unit cost, as the merged unit would cost double the base one. The cost have to make sense for both units
-Diversity of new units, adding a mergeable unit means adding two units in the same production facility. While gateway already have lot of units, robotic may have space to this approach. If sentry is moved to robo this could be an option

Oracle with low vision can be good, with revelation spell helping overcome the drawback
Requiring observatory may have logic, but need to change requirement from robotics to robotics or stargate (because needing to go robotics to train a stargate unit will be weird)

Remember that all of this is only theorycraft, when you start to analyze some of those changes in a more analytic way problems and imbalances start approaching.

Like making robo available after gateway will reduce the time that you can rush for reaver/shuttle. As you can start robotics at the same time than cybercore.

Then if you leave sentry at robotics and dragoon unlocked by citadel (and citadel requiring cyber core), if you dont go robotics after gateway, you only have zealots until citadel which will limit gateway play early game. If citadel dont require cyber core. Then dragoon will probably be chosen over sentry as it can be trained from already constructed gateways and fasten the requirements to templars.

Personally, i prefer to not change the tech tree unless there are good reasons to do so.

Agree, to not switch time for building access, with current ideas.

then:

1.Sentry early unit (req. CyberCore) - same as now.
2.Dragoon req. Citadel. - mid game unit
3.Citadel; 2x Dragoon Upgr [overload+range] + 1x Zealot Upg[speed].
4.Oracle- morph from 2x observer. Robo unit. Conc AtG, twisted vision.

what you think? I think its solid.

only 2 early units issue;
A: add new unit to Gateway - there are 6 already.
B: faster access to Robo - no, because tech tree problem*
C: add new unit to Nexus [morph 2 Probe's into NewUnit [Sentry? Warden?], available if some upgrade done. Possible to add gas cost during morph?]

* if faster access:
shuttle, Reaver, observer - if req. cybercore anyway timing stay same.
faster access Warden. Much mess for 1 unit - not elegant solution.

C: add new unit to Nexus
One the first version of the Warden, it was constructed in the nexus. but i didn't like too much this approach. As it ended feeling weird. Where to put warden upgrades?, which building would unlock it? And robotics feels more logical place to have such unit

Oracle: I prefer it as a starport unit, Having a spell that provides detection will give an option over robotics. Ofc the detection provided will be situational and less effective, so you will need observers against heavy cloaked tactics

For 3 early unit; I just try mod SOR.
There is nice idea to increase meaning of Shield Battery, by twisting this building. Anyway one early unit req Shield battery would be good approach.

Warden req battery and be produce in Gateway?

I play SOR some more, its meh.. but allow me to test some idea:

Sentry with early hallucination is GREAT. Defense base, micro during attack, scout. Its very well self balanced by scarcity of Protoss units. Feel really sensible for the Protoss tactics - in believability term. It just lots of fun to use it.

High Templar in late game hallucination is not that meaningful, you dont play with it as much, and its not that enjoyable. Mostly because other tools required attention and are more efficient (Storm).

If the idea of 3 early unit is still in consideration, then give the early supporting unit, hallucination skill. PLEASE i like it that much.

===================
I would refrain from making robotic accessible earlier. Would rather move Warden into Gateway.
Honestly most "natural" would be to add one more infantry unit for Gateway as early unit. And keep warden in robotic. But its work on GRP. For me early, crippled High Templar, would be sweet.
Zealot basic
Sentry range+AA
HTemplar support hallucination

===================

SOR High templar can put bio unit into prison (no move, no attack, vulnerable) - its not OP at all. You waste energy on it. And putting single bio, never change the tide of battle. plus targeting micro is not worth it (even for me who play on normal speed). I would welcome such skill, only I would prefer only to disable mech unit attack.

Also HT in SOR mod has attack, that feel quite nice. I think good approach would be high dmg concussive 30, with very long cooldown*, 2range, vsG,vsA. *to work as finisher, not a viable attack.