StormRaven Thread - SC Revolution Mod for StarCraft

I have quite a lot sentiment to this unit, as fledgling avatar of this mod improving. Getting real:

What is this unit role? Slow down incoming melee enemies. Besides early Melee rushes, close combat enemies are not very threatening (thanks to pathfinding ).
Terran has counter-measures against zerg (firebat), but lack in means against Protoss. So I suggest, let each hit reduce additionaly target shields/energy (litlle EMP with each shoot).

GRP - stop forcing players to imagine SR as medium unit, if the beholers eye see fragile female. Especially now when Firebat is medium.
Consider changing cost 50/50/1, HP 40 + 40 shield (ghost already has it, open possibility to add shield upgrade for Ghost, SR, Diamondback), armor 0 [+1] (zero armor to balance shield regeneration).

Weak point:
if Firebat is melee, let SR be long range, with no melee capabilities. Give it min range 1, so in close quarter Crows will need to retreat.

upgrade Electrostatic discharge: add splash to energy reducing effect. With affecting multiple units it will be more explict counter without need to prouduce mass SR only to balance protoss shields.

upgrade Optic Flare: AoE (2 use per unit, like vulture), GRP as granade launch, and some light explosion. Precise one unit blind is hard to use, but with AoE would be great against enemy with stack of long range units (blind all tanks and come closer).

upgrade Shock blaster: remove min range, reduce max range, increase RoF. SR replace shock rifle with something with bigger rate of fire, but it has also drawbacks. Gameplay purpose of this upgrade is to reduce issues with min range for AI, that may or not occurr (RavanWolf mention it in some discussion long ago).

P.S. Dont know if its possible, but skill to reduce target attack range (not blinding) can be alternative to micro-EMP, if you dont like such audacious anti-protoss effect.

I was thinking the same about stormraven, the unit doesn't have a good role at the moment. And im still undecided on how to improve it.

The problem with your approach its that is too specific against protoss, it wont have much proposes on the other matchups.

For some reason also i dont like limited abilities (spider mines are fine, but i will try to avoid adding others) i prefer energy instead.

Reducing range with it basic attack its something i have considered

AtM firebat its great to counter most CC units (lings, roachs, zealots) and also perform well against dragoons.

So not sure about making ravens specialised against protoss, what i think is that it should synergy well with mech units.

The current version its
Cost 50/25 hp/shield 30/30 1 supply, small size
Attack: Long range (6) and electrostatic

Shield makes it not medic dependant. And long range slow makes it good to protect siege lines from fast moving units

But still not convinced by the unit overall

Other stuff im considering

1. Making it a combat engineer: will be similar to the current state but able to repair units and build bunker and turrets
2. Make it a harass unit: more in the shape of a SC2 reaper fast moving, some survival ability and harass potential (but dont know how to do it...)
3. make it a caster: with blind AoE and some othe support spell
4. Scrap the unit? (if the unit doesnt have any porpuse may be will be better to remove it)

ROLE:
What we have now, looks from stats, like front line, common unit (cheap, low HP).

Support for mechanical unit OR Harassment - upgrade to work together with other troops or in seclusion. Something like ghost (with lock-down his a good support).

Nice harass feature would be to timely turn off structures (workers stop gas gathering, stop unit production, put down defenses structure (detection), infantry need to leave bunker)

Harrasment: Cloak? Teleport? Speed? Hide (on/off)?
IMO last option hide (like zerg burrow) is the best. Ghost will act like prominent stealth unit. Storm as early, worse stealth unit (move, hide, wait, go on paralyse eco).

BLIND for SR:

I think we reach consensus how Blind should work, no matter what role StormRaven have, its good ability for her:
[blabla] Its hard for me to imagine convinient use of Blind, other than AoE cast. Passive chance with each hit? You end with blinding melee units who didnt need it. Blinding single unit dont give any benefit (enemy use other unit LoS). [/blabla]

For some reason also i dont like limited abilities (spider mines are fine, but i will try to avoid adding others) i prefer energy instead.

:/ , I like limited "ammo" - more than "clutter" every units with energy. Usually you dont use the stash before unit die , and even if you find yourself without stock, you can build next unit. Also Blind can work like that; StormRaven can use it only when has full shields and each use deplete (zero-ing) the shields.

CASTER or not:

Slow down: no need energy
Hide: has drawback (cannot attack - make sens and its easier to control) - no need energy
Blind: IMO limited use or shields deplete to use
Turn off structure: need to come close and lose Shield when doing so, + can not Hide for few sec.

My vote - no.

P.S. Support for mechanical unit - need to thing about that more, now just my idea for harassment.

EDIT:

SR need some basic feature from the start. Let Electrostatic discharge and Hide be available from the start. Hide for harassment (use to place on map and hide, utill Building Off skill become developed), Electrostatic Dis to accent support role, also longer sight range could make it a good spoter (hide + long gaze).

Upgrades:
Optic Flare - AoE blind. It will also work well as defensive/support ability.
Turn off structure - range ability, not melee - can work similar like Ghost lock down, only versus structures.

That is more than sufficient to fill both harassment and support role.

I maybe go too far with my energy reluctance. Mechanism to deplete shields for casting abilities can be too hard to hack and all the pros can be achieved with energy bar. For energy cost we need to take into account that SR is a cheap and rather common unit, that can be used in amount equal to Firebat's, as opposed to rare and expensive Ghost. Thats why skill cost has to be high, so skill is use only once in a row.

Hide - turn on cost 25. will be use more offen than Ghost cloak, but dont take energy for staying hidden.

Optic Flare and Turning Off Structure cost 150 - can be cast only once in a row. 50 spare energy can be used to hide after (or before) attack or to shorten reload time (wait 100, instead 150). Still with 5 unit you can blind whole army or shut down all enemy eco.

Edited by: Łagi

Im also want to avoid adding energy bars to every unit. But if that meant having to create special rules (like shields acting as energy) for some unit i'll definitely will go with energy.

Other options that i prefer are abilities with simple drawbacks (stimpak, overload, hunter mode, shield deploy)
Other options are cooldowns, but here there are not elegant solutions to make cooldowns noticeable (can be implemented with an energy bar with max energi= seconds. But can cause confusion and still will be an energy based solution)

About the abilities, disabling a building its something i have considered in the past (contaminate spell), but i feel that i may turn in a useless ability (like in SC2) or a complete broken one. Also what effect it should have against hatchery/hive/lair? Zerg have they production limited to that building, so disabling those requires less casters, and have bigger impact on zerg economy

AoE range sight reduction its something i want to add. But its stormraven the best unit to have it? For the existing units with energy it can be reintroduced as a medic spell or may be added to dropship(like planed before) thus it will require to become a spell caster, and i also have considered the option to give cloak for dropships, so it will allow better drop strategies.

But again those last changes will leave the stormraven without a role to fill

If you didnt plan to give any new "role" for Stormraven, I mean giving her new skills or tweaking old, then removing Stormraven is better decision that leaving unit without any specific thing role , and thus creating noob trap for new player who futile try to figure out the unit application.

Dropship with cloak, vortex bombs (reduce sight and range) and emergency pad upg. can be nice thing for testing that open lots of new tactics.

EDIT:

disabling a building its something i have considered in the past (contaminate spell), but i feel that i may turn in a useless ability (like in SC2) or a complete broken one. Also what effect it should have against hatchery/hive/lair? Zerg have they production limited to that building, so disabling those requires less casters, and have bigger impact on zerg economy

Disabling building can not work at all with zerg structure - same as Ghost LockDown.

====

Stormraven (no energy bar)

slow down - default.
hide - default. SR can not move, attack nor use skill while hidden. On/off at will.

upg:
sabotage- timely turn off non-organic structure. range 1. skill take some time to use (like ghost when nuke). Can not be use to turn off structure again, until previous timer went off.
optic flare - AoE reduce sight range. With each use she receive damage (it first go for the shields, then for HP).

Edited by: Łagi

Sabotage and optical flare doesn't look like useful or attractive abilities (even if they sound interesting), due to a little problems:

Optical flare:
-Reducing the sight range doesn't affect the weapon's range.
-Reducing sight range doesn't have a big impact for units that aren't detectors, cause you always can use other units to provide vision.
-Even if the unit is blinded, the attacker reveals position when firing. This causes the unit to have "extended vision".

This would make the OF too specialized:
-Terrans can use Scanner Sweep, so losing a detector isn't a problem.
-Protoss detectors (hard to find in the map) are cheap.

Sabotage:
-Unless the unit has cloak, this skill looks hard to use.
-In a normal scenario, you'll kill the building instead of disabling it (with the implemenation described)
-The only important application for this seems to be vs Terran's Reactors.

Even with the changes, both spells could be rarely used. This also happens in SC:BW and SCII, both spells are the least used.

Other approach the unit could have is Tier 1/1.5 harass option:

-Concusive Shells (Passive skill): Any enemy unit hit by the Stormraven's attack have their movement speed reduced by % 50
-Jet-Pack (1): Allows the unit to travel up and down cliffs
-Jet-Pack (2): Allows the unit to jump to target position, requires energy.
-Multi-Lock weapon: Allows Stormravens to hit a extra unit per Weapon upgrade, dealing % 30 (or 25) of the weapons damage.

The Concusive Shells will keep the actual "role" of the unit, the Jet Pack (1 or 2) could bring the unit more movility and the Multi-Lock would make the unit a threat for weak small units (like workers). This would give the SR freedom to be used in Hit & Run tactics (creating another option different of the Vulture), harass and still could be used with the main army (due to the Concusive Shells).

Terrans doesn't have a Barrack's option to harass (like Zerg(Zergling/Baneling) and Protoss(DT)) and the only H & R unit is the Vulture, and a small weak unit could be a good option.

KYSXD really accurate comment, pleasure to read

Optical Flare:
Fair points and you're right. In SC:BW Optical Flare need micro and affect single unit, but with AoE it will be way more useful. Blinded defensive cluster of units will lose it longer range attitude, because your troops can advance further before the fire exchange start. Still I agree Blind would be minor useful spell. By making blind status persistent it would become a little more viable and also the Restoration will gain use. Optic Flare should has Friendly Fire to limit it use.

Drawback: Let the game check if SR has shields >20. if:
yes => deal 20 dmg to the SR (which go to the shields), active skill
no => can not use Optic Flare
Use Stimpack code rule (?).

Sabotage:
Agree, disabling structure is weak idea.

Hide => Self-made Cloak- invisible until attack or use skill, after some time since last attack, automatically become invisible again. No need to turn on/off. Reduce micro, more useful. No need energy, has drawback.

Jet-Pack: need GRP, moreover need sc1 Kerrigan GRP. IMO too much SC2. Maybe there is other way to achieve attack over cliff?
=>
Improvised Exploding Device - StormRaven shoot an "missile" which contain an remote mine. On the place of impact create new unit: Vulture GRP Spider Mine. Mine is visible, controllable and can not burrow. It has a weak (10 explosive) AoE suicide attack that deal extra damage vs structure (+150? point is to not kill workers, but damage the buildings) and hold stop units in AoE (paralyses workers) for time.

Limit one mine per StormRaven (or produce like carrier, but its awful micro, or suggested in this post Optic Flare drawback)

Multi-lock: don't fit. Especially if StormRaven suppose to be used in bigger amount. Multi- lock = multi fire work better with big units. (its good skill for Goliath)

Concussive Shells = Electrostatic Discharge = slow down - works the same. Should be default SR skill.

Optical flare (Blinding nova, shock bombs or whatever name) wont only reduce sight but also range. But i think that it that won't fit in the stormraven if the unit remains cheap in cost. Will be better for a support caster (may be dropship, maybe other unit)

I like the proposed jet-pak harass option for hit and run tactics (ofc will require new grp or edit the current one). Slow may remain but combines with multiple target hit, can be imba in my opinion, so probably will have only the slow passive.

The self cloak, option its also a interesting approach, can be good for infiltration in the early game.

The exploding device/drone its also a very interesting approach as it can be used to avoid terrain/walls. But will need to find a drawback cost that makes sense and its balanced. In this case a limit amount seems reasonable.

But, i dont want to overload a unit with too much abilities (optical flare, cloak, electrostatic, and the mine)

So probably will end with slow on attack, infiltration skill (cloak, jetpac or drone), and if still feels that something it missing i can consider an additional skill/ability.

Agree, for SR resign from Optical flare. Dont fit to cheap unit.

If SR suppose to be early harassment unit, then semi-cloak should be default skill to define this role. Semi-cloak (hood?) fit to early, cheap unit gameplay. Dont require attention for energy management with lot of units, nor micro with turning it on/off. Slowing attack should stay as upgrade, so SR can be expanded to support role.

jet pack - unit with ability to jump over obstacles should has short fire range.
imagine two unit A and B, standing on two side of the barrier (wall, cliff). Unit A has double the B range.

A can place itself in position when B cannot reach him, and when B step back he use jet pack to jump over and chase the target.
It create situation when B can not counter-act against A, that why jet pack don't fit to long range unit.

Drone - building damaging skill, could work good as late game upgrade, equivalent of Incinerator Gauntlets on Firebat.
===
Storm Raven
Cost 50/25, hp/shield 30/30, 1 supply, small size
Attack: Long range (6), explosive (burst)
default: Hood- invisible till not attack. Cool down to hide again.
Upg: Electrostatic Discharge - slow down
Upg: Drone - create remote mine

Im currently tinkering with the SR.

Mine version:
Problem of having a controlled mine its that the only way to defend against its having enough and well positioned defences on your base. As other case the mine (with enough amount) can instantly destroy a building and the player cannot do nothing about (it doesnt leave time to counter play) Being late game will make it more balanced, but i will like to have it as an early harassment tool. (i prefer this kind of option rather than the hood/passive cloak)

So im considering this approach:

-Instead of a mine will be a drone that can deploy (burrow)
-When deployed it gain extra armor and requires detection(so its fragile while moving and dont die instantly when deployed) and can switch from two modes: scout and combat
-Combat mode: (default mode) attack any nearby unit with a weak attack (that also slow targets), attack will decloak the drone for a time
-Scout mode: Switching to this mode will increase sight but loose cloak and cannot attack
-Each SR have only one drone (drone lives until killed)
So you can use the drone to harass workers at the initial game states (deploy them on mineral field), place them as defence (deploy a cloaked minefield that damage and slow group of units), or use them to have vision on strategic points of the map (like over a cliff, kind of Sentinel's Owl from WC3).

Didnt test Jet pack version yet, but my though:
Go down/up probably will have to be ability with cooldown/drawback (so you cant abuse go up/down and it will have more risk to go to undiscovered area)

My Vision:
Im actually liking more the drone version as it adds lot of possibilities and its a new approach different from SC2.
But i dont discard the jet pack version as it can be interesting to have. Im even considering having both, mine as default/early game upgrade, and jet pack as a late game upgrade. (or a weak/very limited jet pack version at start and upgradeable in late game)

Edited by: RavenWolf

IMO drone should be autonomous. Switching mode A/B is max player influence on drone behavior. With cheaper StormRanens you would have also more Drone to control. This micro can be bad, it would be like controlling interceptors with Carrier.

Deploying Drone should be in form of shooting Drone in the rocket. Its more fun than just put it in same place that SR stands.

Yeah the deploy will be like a missile, so you can deploy them at range (or over cliff) but they still can be selected and move as you want. I dont think they require much micro.
Basically you deploy them on scout mode to gain map awareness( few of the on strategic positions), or use a group of them to harass workers or like a mine field. A single drone wouldn't be capable of do any harm, so you will need to use them on groups.
Once they start attacking there are not much micro involved on your side (micro here is on opponent, retreat workers and send some combat units), try to undeploy and move your drones wont be much effective as the are fragile and mostl will be dead before you can deploy them again.

But this is only theory, i still dont try this approach.

Edited by: RavenWolf