Tobari Thread - R.E.A.R.M. - The Unofficial Classic HW 2 Expansion mod for Homeworld 2

You have the Turanic Raiders for the Vaygr, the Nassar for the Hiigarans. How about having the Tobari for the Kadeshi?
No one one has ever really defined the Tobari, but your good at coming up with neat new stuff.

You have a good point about Tobari being not that defined. I've read a few things about them, but still there is a lot of unknown about them. And they are an existing HW2 race so it would be a shame to miss them in the ally races.

But Kadeshi are the problem. A big one actually. You see I can't imagine them being particularly friendly with anyone...

There is a race that already exists and is known to make contact with Kadeshi in the past, but as the Kadeshi ambassador said: "The Turanic raiders, who came before you, refused to join and were punished for their trespass".

Edited by: Pouk

Well... if not allies, what about slaves? Subjugates of the original people of the Nebulae, forced into remedial tasks like farming, construction and RU gathering, and given a chance at Kadeshi citizenship through military service.

Or for a less sinister approach:
"If you have come to join, we welcome you and will spare your ship until all have disembarked."
What if others had agreed to this proposition? Perhaps if others agree to this, they are not forced into Kadeshi society, but are allowed to govern themselves as allies to the Kadeshi (under an iron grip) in their own part of the nebulae. There could be huge diversity within The Great Nebulae.

Edited by: Hell_Diguner

Yes of course, that was actually a plan (really), to have a slave race. (Actually I'm not sure why I'm doing now what I basically always do -making everyone sure that I had the same idea. That's so obvious that pretty much everyone will come up with the same result pretty instantly). Or a drone race, something not very sentient. Those two are the only ones I see as not problematic.

Ok, let's say it is technically possible. Although I have never understood the sentence "...until all have disembarked", my English somehow refuses to decode that for me. Are they saying that they'll spare their ships until they'll all get out? So are they expected to disembark and then their ships will be turned into metal for Kadeshi ships? Or will they be allowed to stay, but ...what? I simply don't know what did he mean.
But what I want to say is that I always thought (and still think until it will be explained to me), that Kadeshi reforge the ships to make their own designs and integrate only the people. In that case any race which would join would simply turn Kadeshi. So everyone, including allies, would be just Kadeshi.
Plus I don't think we can talk about "races". Some Taiidan freighters, some other small packs of cargo ships or maybe those Turanic raids. But in every case the only full sized race which entered the nebula I know about are the Kushans. My point is that even if they'd keep the trespassers their ships, I don't see them being seen as one specific race at all. I can imagine a wide range of different designs. But as I said, I understood it as the Kadeshi use them for metal (and maybe weapons or something), so still I don't see it.

But ok, let's imagine there would be a race that would enter the nebula, join, somehow contact back the rest of the race so we could justify them being called an ally race... no. When I'm writing it I just found this another problem. "There's no withdraw from the garden". It would really have to be another enter in the Kushan style, otherwise we can't talk about a joined race, only a small strikeforce maybe. But that doesn't make much sense to me, why would I want to have a separate group of different ships if they are such a tiny part of the Kadeshi fleet.

Hell_Diguner wrote: There could be huge diversity within The Great Nebulae.

That's the problem, I don't see it. I'm repeating myself, but I agree that if they'd keep them their ships, the diversity would really be huge. But the Kadeshi I know will tear your ship apart to forge their own ships from it. They appear to be very uniform.

But I want to point out one thing. Even I'm not sure when I'll be able to execute the plan with Kadeshi generations, I'm afraid that it won't be any time soon, everything I said applies only to the first generation. The Kadeshi of the Nebula.

Edit:

I have just noticed two things:
-How fast a Tobari thread turned into a Kadeshi thread.
-When I just said all that I did, it appears to me that I have suddenly problem with slave race as well.

Edited by: Pouk

Have you ever read about the Warhammer 40K universe? The Tau and the Kroot are kind of like this. Why don't you just do what they did. Let's just say in some cases the Kadeshi let those who join keep their ships, for example the Tobari. Then the Tobari, let's just say they're more of a mercenary race for the Kadeshi, but like the Kroot they don't actually "follow" the religion. So whenever a Kadeshi ship comes under attack the Tobari send aid but they aren't complete friends. You could also point out that the Tobari "sneak" in and out of the great nebula at will.

If you ever add the Progenitors I was thinking you could have the T-mat be their alliance race. You could say that the Progenitors built them to build the massive structures that sit around everywhere. But they were smarter than that and declared independence, but they still saw it as an advantage to remain allies with them. Sort of like the US and the UK

Since we are on Kadeshi can I just put out my opinion?
-The needleship feels more like it should be a carrier
-You'd think that after 4,000 years the Kadeshi would have a valid mothership?

Edited by: Syrtees

I'm not really familiar with details of the Warhammer 40K universe.
In the second generation the Kadeshi can have allies, but I'm not convinced about the nebula Kadeshi.

The Needleship:
Firstly, I'm not sure if you're familiar with my 3 generations concept. If not, then the current Kadeshi are the HW1 ones, they don't have any Mothership other than the Needleship.
And a Needleship is not a Carrier. It's not a Mothership either. That's why you aren't limited to one.

What exactly is the whole 3 generations?

It means that there'll be (well someday) three steps of Kadeshi evolution, the three kinds of Kadeshi. And the current Kadeshi are the 115years old ones, the Kadeshi from the great nebula in HW1.

Pouk couldn't decide how he wanted to approach the Kadeshi. On one hand, he (and others) want to see original Kadeshi ships in HW2. On the other hand, he (and others) realize that after 115 years, the Kadeshi have probably changed, become more advanced, and possibly have changed their political and religious doctorines.

So to have both types of Kadeshi present in the game, he created the generation idea, where the first generation would be like the Kadeshi we know from HW1. The third generation would be what the Kadeshi should be like in the HW2 time period, and the second generation would be like a transition between the first and third generations.

In-game, the player would advance his ships not just through research, but also by advancing the time period, which would unlock newer ships in each successive generation. Pouk never mentioned in detail how this would work. It could be a fairly rigid system, where after doing the right research, you then "research" the next generation of Kadeshi, and from then on, you can't build the older ships. It could be a more loose system, with clear generations for each ship, no clear fleetwide shift from one generation to the next.

The state of allies for the Kadeshi might be generation dependant, so no allies in the first generation, but definitely allies in the third.

Ultimately, none of this is rigid, and anybody could sway Pouk to change his mind about how to implement the Kadeshi as a race.

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"...until all have disembarked"
This is a good question, and I've never figured out a clear interpretation. Actually, yours makes more sense than my interpretation, which assumes this sentence is poorly translated by the Kushan ambassador, and the Kadeshi mean: If you have come to join us, we welcome you, and will allow you to live with us in the Gardens until the Taiidan are no longer a threat, and there is no longer a need to keep our existence secret... and then when the Kushan overthrew the Taiidan, word didn't reach the Kadeshi for a long time, and/or they didn't believe it to be true.
This is assuming the word "ship" is a poor translation. To the Kadeshi, their ships are their livelihood, their culture, their entire existance. So when the word ship is translated, it should be taken as a metaphor for other peoples culture, livelihood, and entire existance.

But to be honest, your interpretaion makes more sense.

The 3 generation system sounds like a fantastic idea. It'd be an interesting way to input them. Though I'm not going to lie the current Needleship is a little overpowered and feels like a battlecruiser straight out. Coupled with the Lanceship it's just outright unfair. I know the Kadeshi are WIP at the moment but I don't think the needleship should deserve the ability to dish out 4000 damage.

If the needleship isn't a mothership and it obviously isn't a carrier, then what exactly would you classify it as?

Hell_Diguner wrote: Pouk never mentioned in detail how this would work...

Because as you can guess I'm not entirelly sure yet, but I or we together will figure the details out.
The only thing I'm certain of is that each production ship will be capable of building only ships belonging to it's generation. With the only exception of hyperspacing a Needleship or any mothership class vessel of the next generation to upgrade to the next level. So for example the 1G Needleship will be able to build only 1G Swarmers.

Hell_Diguner wrote: the second generation would be like a transition between the first and third generations.

The beauty of this system is that all generations have their purpose and the second isn't just a filler.
Before I had the Mololu's Kadeshi, I had my own concept of them. But I was aware that there'll probably be a lot of people who wouldn't like that concept, because that particullar vision of the race is rather ...problematic. And so none of those race variations can really be used as the only or a definitive version, the first ones are too old and the second ones aren't what they used to be. So there is the third version, the evolved advanced Kadeshi, maybe something like Vijil's concepts. And so it wasn't hard to realize that the three generation system would be a very interesting solution, because I would have:
-1G -something faithful to the original
-2G -something I originally wanted
-3G -something which is actually current to the time of the HW2 universe

Gameplay-wise I see it as:
1G - mass and chaotic combat. Strikecraft heavy. Unusually long sensor range.
2G - nasty, cloaked cheating bastards.
3G - Hi-tech, a normal presence of cap ships of all kinds.

Plus as a bonus it solves what to do with Kadeshi in a faction gameplay. Instead of Kinetic, Beam and Missile/Hi-tech, there'll simply be a first, second and a third generation.

Syrtees wrote: Kadeshi are WIP at the moment but I don't think the needleship should deserve the ability to dish out 4000 damage.

Yeah yeah yeah, it won't be that strong, it's not supposed to be. It's not even finished, from those two the Lanceship is far more finished.

Syrtees wrote: If the needleship isn't a mothership and it obviously isn't a carrier, then what exactly would you classify it as?

Exactly, what the hell is it? It could be a Supercarrier or some kind of micro-mothership... Nothing fits or makes sense. I clasify it simply as a Needleship. Look into unitcaps, you'll see that Needleship is in the family of "needleships".

I can't exactly be a supercarrier because it has to hyperspace everything above fighter. Speaking of which what if you made it so that it could build frigates? You could have the front of it slide forward to reveal a larger production bay.

Yes it could be a Supercarrier, I said it doesn't exactly fit, but that hyperspacing thing you just said is a nonsense. If it currently can't launch corvettes or frigates it's just because I was rebuilding the dockpaths (how many times I have to repeat it's just a WIP. You're keep commenting things you think are flaws, while they are just unfinished). Why would I ever want to hyperspace in a corvette and why would you ever presume that I want to...
BTW if you don't build frigates in your Needleship, where do you build them then???

Sorry. I was assuming so as every other mod I have seen thus far has made it hyperspace everything in.

Kadeshi will in fact have the most detailed dockpaths from all races.

That's good to hear!

Although I agree the Needleship belongs in its own class, I think it is most similar to REARM's version of Battleship class craft. It just exchanges weaponry for massive gravwell generators, and has an unusual design.

Yes it's very similar to the REARM Battleship.