Science cruiser? Thread - R.E.A.R.M. - The Unofficial Classic HW 2 Expansion mod for Homeworld 2

Now I haven't managed to play Homeworld with rearm yet (because of this %&##! Mac incompatibility),
but I do have this idea of a spaceship running (well, flying) through my head:
How about a Hiigaran science cruiser? If I'm not mistaken, the Hiigaran want to be a peaceful race right?
So it wouldn't be unfitting for them to have something like this.

It would be a cruiser (perhaps slightly smaller sized) ship with very high defense but next to nothing attack,
its power would more lie in exploration (it would be nice that it would be faster than most ships of its size)
and supporting friendly units in battle by:
-projecting a defensive field (stronger than the frigate with the same job),
-creating a large EMP field that would disable all ships in the immediate area,
-projecting a tractor beam to hold an enemy in place (can't escape, can't maneuver),
-large cloaking field (upgradable to resist the anti cloak scanner?),
-large hyperspace wake,
-resource multiplied when used as a drop off point,
-collect resource itself more efficiently (?),
-perhaps needed for more advanced researches,
-creation of utility crafts

I was thinking that the shipyard and science station (that I believe your developing) would be needed before
constructing it.
This is for me a great idea, that is, if you didn't think of this before, or if something like this doesn't already
exist in REARM......

Interesting idea. There are few things I want to say about it:

Fisrtly, are we sure that people would like to build a large support and powerup ship instead of a Battlecruiser? My experience is that people prefer a new ways to "blow sh*t up", if this wouldn't be done right, it risks being seriously underused. I personally don't like powerups in Homeworld, I don't like them at all in general actually. But a Defense field, HW1 style gravwell or EMP emitor, that sounds nice.

Secondly, the clasification. Your description says:
-slightly smaller than cruiser
-next to nothing attack
-resource collection
-building of utility crafts
If I didn't know you're talking about a cruiser, I'd see nothing but a Carrier in my head.
So I have two solutions:

-To give it a weapons. Not as much as BC but still enough to kill something. This way it could deserve a Cruiser clasification. And this way it's also becoming the ship I have aleady planned, a defensive BC -main module with buildable ion turret or massive defense field, four or six other smaller positions for kinetic turrets or armor plates. Good amount of health, partial modularity but not extraordinary firepower. A frontline ship that can withstand a lot of damage and atract a firepower. It's certainly a more violent solution, but this ship is planned to be a direct counterpart to Vaygr Missile BC. A Vaygr MBC - a lot of firepower, different weapons, less health and more easily killed. Hiigarad DBC - a lot of health, defense field and armor modules, less firepower.
So to this ship I'd just add the EMP ability and some of what you said. (-not cloaking though, cloaking and def. field can't be combined, an engine limitation).

-Really make it a Carrier. It doesn't have to build much (maybe just fighters), but technically it would be far more fitting. It would be a support ship already from its nature, it could just do even more. You wouldn't feel like missing a needed firepower and blocking a unit cap space for a proper heavy hitter as the Battlecruiser. And it would be a core of your strikecraft attack, this thing in the middle using it's EMP or def. field magic with fighters and corvetes swarming around.

A big defensive thing with smaller things flying around was the idea I had in mind, but also if you would've built the
modules for it.
What I was thinking, since its a science cruiser it has some hi-tech stuff on-board: I also said that when used as a
drop-off point, and with the right module installed, it would be able to multiply the resource a collector brings,
and since its armed (I didn't mean it to be totally weaponless) it could hold its own without gun platforms before
you send back-up (the irritating thing about the mobile refinery is that when too far away it usually ends up getting
destroyed along with the gun platforms).
A carrier can't collect resource, but the science cruiser, with the right module installed would be able to suck empty
meteors five times faster (with an energy beam thingy like in HW1) than a bunch of collectors, also it wouldn't risk being
destroyed so easily when attacked.
Also (I forgot to mention this before), with the right module installed it would be able to repair damaged ships faster
(also with an energy beam thingy).
Since it doesn't have so much firepower that energy that's left would be able to be used for the engines, making it much
faster, good for exploration.
As far as building its own units go... well, I've been thinking about it and its not actually a good idea...

Basically what I mean is a massive all-purpose utility craft for combat support or non combat.
So.. what do you think now...

No. That shaped up kinda worse, which I didn't expect.

Tattorack wrote: ...would be able to suck empty meteors five times faster... ...that energy that's left would be able to be used for the engines, making it much
faster...

So we have a resource rusher here. All you need to do it to build two of them and suck all the resources from the map as fast as you can. And according to what you said it would really go fast. And you said 5 times faster?!?! If you think a multiplier with a value of five is just alright, I want to see what is your idea of over the top then.

Anyway, I'm sorry, no Crusiers will have resource drop-of points.
That's also why I see a carrier in your description. Resourcing and battleling doesn't go together to me in the Cruiser or Battelcruiser Class. The concept of Battleship I have, that will have resourcing, but Cruisers,... I like to have those separate, so the player have to care about his units and their protection, I simply have no intention in making it any easier easier for him.

But ok, let's say theoretically we have a ship like that. Why is it a Crusier then? Why wouldn't you call it something like "support ship" instead ("utility", "defense"... "ship", "vessel"...)

Edited by: Pouk

Well... generally a cruiser is a ship class above frigate no?
And since we already have a supportive frigate...
Anyways, it doesn't have to be specifically "on the dot" of my description; don't forget I've never modded homeworld
so I can only slightly imagine how faster resource collecting would be.
Also the faster speed would be more meant for exploration... but if that doesn't work out...
You said your more aiming for things that blow crap to voidless hell right? The Vaygr would fit that description more
than the Hiigaran, so that's why I was thinking more of a scientific approach for them.
I've been thinking again, and if your really looking for something with combat you could give it the ability to transfer
power to nearby large ships... (but that's just another idea).
Anyways, I wouldn't see the Hiigaran come up with too many destructive ships.
But that's up to you of course... and you've done a great job so far.

Tattorack wrote: I've never modded homeworld so I can only slightly imagine how faster resource collecting would be.

It has nothing to do with modding skills. Don't you see that 5 times faster is really fast? Anyway I already said I don't want a Cruiser with resource drop-off points or harvesting ability, so that's a problem.

Tattorack wrote: the faster speed would be more meant for exploration.

So exploration OR support? That doesn't make sense. You either have a support ship for your fleet with special abilities or an exploration ship which is fast, but surely has enough of weapons to defend itself. And instead of special abilities it would surely have other things instead, like an extended sensor range or cloaking ability. I see you have two ships and you're mixing them together.

Tattorack wrote: You said your more aiming for things that blow crap to voidless hell right? The Vaygr would fit that description more than the Hiigaran, so that's why I was thinking more of a scientific approach for them.

That is true, that surely is a Hiigaran aproach. But firstly define what this ship even is. Scout or fleet support?
Scout:
-no special abilities.
-not even a Battle Cruiser and maybe not even a Heavy Cruiser. More like a Light Cruiser.
Fleet support:
-as I said earlier I already have a ship for this role and again it already has the defense field generator.
-such ship (as any other Cruiser) can't have anything concerning resourcing.
-won't be that fast.

The problem is that other games of the same genre which have a scientific race would have this nifty ship that could support
allies and do some nice boosting effects (like bringing up stronger shields, making ships stronger....) and scan neutral/enemy
targets for more info about resources and enemy weaknesses.
But since Homeworld has only one resource and there are no ships with special weaknesses this can't be done....
The closest this would come is the scout-cruiser... would have been nice though, science cruiser for the Hiigs...

Well it's not my problem. ...What I mean is, I'm sorry to say that, but the very lack of those nifty boosting support ships is one of those things I so love about Homeworld. I really don't like special powers in RTS games.
Shields, special attacks -those that make sense and are based on weapons that need cooling down or extra long realoding, some fields or EMPs, those are fine and refreshing.
But what I'm allergic to are those (currently so popular) units that lights up with a flame of aurora borealis over them and go on killing frenzy. Those effects that look like magic. Those that boost up the firepower of friendly units, those that generate a magic fog that gives friendly units invulnerability. I don't like all those powerups and boosts, it's hard to keep a track on what's really going on or to predict the outcome of the situation. What I want is one solid warship chewing out the metal from the other warship's armor. What I don't want is two sides casting their inpredictable magic spells in the middle of the battle to protect them or to do some other voodoo. And at the end it just turns out into a chaotic soup of death and you don't even know if you did well or just had luck, your observation is influenced by too many random elements. And most of the times you can't even tell the difference between special powers being activated or not anyway.

Ok this wasn't as much a reply to your suggestions (maybe except the one where it distributes energy to nearby ships), it was more like explanation of where I stand.
There sure can be a special abilities ship (not a special powers ship, if you can see the small nuance in the meaning), but it has to:
-have a believable abilities.
-a clearly defined role.

And again. If you mean a support ship, I already have that one planned, with the defense field. And it's a Battlecruiser.
If you mean your scout-cruiser, then again, it has to be a Light Cruiser. But then what abilities would it have/need? Probably some electronic warfare features, but that would have to be enough -ECM, cloaking, some slowing-down of enemy ships or their reactions, but not a defense field or power-ups for friendlies.

No, I don't like the abilities that makes things invincible (something being that is impossible) and all other things
like the ability to let a mere scout overcome a cruiser.
But a power transfer boost (doesn't have to be an AMAZING power boost) is perfectly possible, heck, Star Trek
uses it for all sorts throughout the series (powering up damaged depleted stuff for the most part, and without some
spectacular light display). (Ok, this is not Star Trek, but it is sci-fi tech...)
A power boost could just be over-charging the targeted ship/squad by 15% (or what-ever small sum is required to
overcome a ship of equal class just a bit faster than usual, and only to the targeted vessel).
But if you hate stuff like then don't do it, it wont kill anybody to play without them;
A scout-cruiser (light cruiser) with EMP, sensor distort and ECM sounds already pretty good...
especially the ECM part... a good counter to Vaygr missiles..

(What makes science ships in other games nice and nifty is more their ability to scan, those games usually also
have more than just a few races and five kinds of resource)

I could see a light cruiser with inate EMP weapon(s), sensors distortion, fire control tower, and maybe even an electronic warfare tower that acts like an anti-fire control tower on enemies. I could also see having a defense field, or maybe drone control module (like HW1 drone frigate or Complex auto-drones), but not weaponry that shoots down missiles. That is one thing that Complex tried, and proved couldn't be balanced.

Not sure why you insist on the science cruiser and scout cruiser names, as neither make sense for what you are describing. It neither performs scientific research, nor would it be used to scout around the map in HW2. The kinds of features you describe make me think of words like electronic warfare, support ship, and command cruiser (to use the existing HW2 name for a friendly buffing ship).

Edited by: Hell_Diguner

Tattorack:
I don't like Star Trek either, never did... Star Trek ships as warships are about as believable as Ferarri pretending to be a mining truck.
But back on topic, I've told you that if it's fast, like the scouting crusier, it can't have the fire support like friendly damage boosts. Just finally define what kind of ship you mean if you want to see me considering it.
Also by ECM I meant the "sensor distrotion", which in case of the sensor distortion probe is named "probe_ecm" in the game files. That's why I used that term.

Hell_Diguner:
"anti-fire control tower on enemies" -that would be nice, yes.
My drones shoot down missiles. But just the special ones, like artillery missiles and mines. Also they're not particularly great in it.
Yes naming of this thing and its meaning, that's what I keep fighting with and giving up now. Science cruiser doesn't say what he means and he didn't narrowed it down either. Partially thanks to the name I still don't fully know what he's talking about.

Actually that's a good idea about the anti-missile drones - if anti-missile weapons just shoot down special missiles (and not all missiles) then anti-missile weaponry would be reasonably possible on other ships.

You won't have nearly as much trouble with balancing, and it should just be a matter of adding anti-missile weapon options to the modular slots of whatever ships you want, then build a fleet with anti-missile weapons interspersed, play through a few games, and adjust the AM weapons appropriately.

Would you unlock the 'Ship Ideas' thread again? I have a few things I'd like to add.

Edited by: Hell_Diguner

I said before that the science cruiser would be needed for certain advanced researches,
and do all sorts of hi-tech stuff with modules that no other ship would have (like a drop-
off point module that would multiply the incoming resource, larger hyperspace wake,
larger defense area, larger distort area, small power boost, nearby large ship repair...
but you didn't like all that, and boom goes the definition of science cruiser, especially
with the first two and the last one).
So... yeah....

(Star Trek ships at war not believable!!??!! Try the akira, galaxy, defiant and, oh yeah,
soyuz class starships! The soyuz is a super advanced science craft and that alone could
wipe out a whole Vaygr fleet! Why? well three things, ST ships haves all shields resistant
to missiles, solid projectiles and laser has basically no affect, most HW ships use solid
projectile weapons, but most ST ships use energy weapons like phasers, since HW
ships don't appear to have any shields they are extremely prone to photonic torpeodos!)

Hell_Diguner:
We already agreed on Drone subsystem on Defensive BC, so yes:

Hell_Diguner wrote: For example, the bottom primary modular slot might have the option of a single ion turret, several LC kinetic turrets, or a drone production facility.

Pouk wrote: -or maybe a drone hive subsystem. Like the Drone frigate but larger and with more drones. It can shoot at long range missiles and fighters.

Hell_Diguner wrote: I've forgotten how you were going to do drones. Was it the auto-order way, like the attack drones and repair drones of Complex, or do the drones remain in a formation around the drone ship, like HW1?

Pouk wrote: HW1 way.
Well I'd like to have the Cataclysm active drones too, but the sphere/eliptic formation which is animated to move into positions is the primary way. The Drone frigate already has that in the current version.

The ship ideas thread has been unlocked.

Tattorack:
Yeah, all the Star Trek ships look utterly ridiculous (I'm talking about the iPad clean polished look with huge bright red and blue lights, not about a comparison of one fictional weapon to another fictional weapon. Obviously, technologically the Star Trek ships are clearly superior.). I'm talking about that they horribly fail to look like warships. I'll tell you what really does look like ships that could actually stand a fight and look in fact believable:
-Sulaco and the alien dropship
-ships from Angel Falls First universe (the HW2 mod and UDK Planetstorm game) -those are some beautiful and solid designs!
-Battlestar Galactica, Battlestar Pegasus
-that Low Altitude Assault Transport thing from Star Wars (Although I don't particularly love Star Wars either)
-...

Star Trek ships look so silly that I don't even feel a need to say anything against them, they speak for themself, it's crystal clear that they look more like a cruise liners than warships even without my description, I'm really sorry but it's true (or maybe I just don't want to start a fight about whose ships are better).

Let's forget about it, each of us has his own opinion he's clearly not gonna change. Well if you want, give me just one reply about why you think the Star Trek design is so brilliant, so we're even, and we'll move on.
(Unless you really want this little flame, in that case I'm definitelly ready....)

Oh, I could give flame... but what the hacks the point?! ("opinions are like ass-holes: everybody
got one... so wich one is better?" quote from some one)
I like iPads and pretty much everything else apple makes, so I guess that figures with Star Trek...
Besides, I like almost all ship designs.. no really (of course some I like better);
From cubes with engines to a super slick streamlined designs...

O.k. this topic seems pretty dead..... but!
I've idea that might breath life into this again, and also define the science vessel:
I've said before that scanning would be useless in HW.... but I've been doing some thinking; you make the science ship
scan ships to unlock/improve certain weapons!
Example:
Want to improve cluster bombs against corvets? scan a bunch of corvets.
Want to improve point defense against cluster bombs? scan something that fires them.
Scan cap-ship engines to make the interceptor do its job better in intercepting by making it more efficient against engines.
etc etc etc.....

Since you've made allot of ships (especially on the Vaygr side) I don't think you can unlock every single weapon in a game, so
every time you could try something different.
So...... how is THAT.

(the mod is fantastic by the way!)