Churchill AVRE w/290mm Spigot Mortar image - Normandy 1944: European Theater mod for Company of Heroes: Opposing Fronts
Normandy '44: European Theater combines a higher level of realism with a more elaborate doctrine system, which incorporates almost 50 different military units that took part in the period of Jun-Sept 1944. This spectrum ranges from divisions of free Polish and French units serving under the main allied armies to volunteers from the Eastern Front that served in the German Wehrmacht. This is only a small portion of the doctrine variety however, as we feature numerous well known units of all factions as well. The mod also features numerous new abilities and custom made units each with a completely revamped size and structure. Between custom made units and structures with historically correct skins, Normandy '44 offers over 150 NEW UNITS, making for an almost endless variety of different scenarios and unit actions. Combined these factors provide for an experience unlike any other mod for CoH!
A Churchill equipped with the Petard, a 290 mm Spigot mortar, throwing the 40 lb (18 kg) "Flying dustbin" with its 28 pound high explosive warhead; a weapon designed for the quick levelling of fortifications developed by MD1. The AVRE was designed after the Canadian defeat at Dieppe, and could also be equipped with numerous other attachments, such as mine flails, fascine rollers, explosive placers etc.
You have posted a new unit every day, that was the plan, right?
I do not see why you posted this one :/ (the skin is great though)
Maybe it will shoot better than the original... I wasn't impressed by it (290mm) and sometimes no damage to the target.
It has a completely new firing system, skin and unit designation. It is a new unit.
I may have asked before but what are the highest tier Commonwealth/American units in the game? by that I mean, what are the larger, more developed classes covered by the mods era? any that can oppose the Tiger?
I don't entirely follow your question. I recommend to check out v1.7. The featured units, for each faction, all field the actual armor assets used in the campaigns of Jun-Sept. 1944. 1v1 the Western Allies have nothing that can take on a Tiger alone, as it actually was. You can however field multiple Allied tanks for what it costs the Axis to field one Tiger. Recreating the 1 to 5 Tiger/Sherman kill ratio that was experienced during the period. There are numerous variants of the Sherman to make the match more interesting, 105 Howitzer Shermans, Easy Eight, Firefly, etc. You won't be disappointed.
actually during the normandy campaign the best allied tank for dealing with german tigers was the sherman firefly which basically had a sawn off 17 pounder anti tank gun. there were engagements such as villers bocage where firefly's took out german tigers it all came down to who saw who first. if the tiger saw the firefly first then it would detroy it and vice versa so this tank could actually take out a tiger on its own.
Speed is key as all Sherman models have terrible armour
Jolly good, I was just curious because during WW2 the allies had access to some heavy and super heavy vehicles like the Pershing and the British Tortoise but I dont know when they were used or what period and if the mod covers it so i guess thats what I was asking if the allies have any fat tanks but Sherman fireflies and such are all good.
Also could that petard knock out a tank? 290mm explosive charge is pretty big.
It's actually a myth that either of those tanks, the Pershing or Tortoise, were "available" so to speak to the allies. I know there were literally less than a dozen Tortoises ever produced, let alone fielded. While the Pershing saw very limited action itself. There are only records of it serving in an indirect fire role during Operation Varsity, March of 1945, literally just weeks before the end of the war, but never saw significant action against infantry and certainly not against German armor. It is included in many COH mods for the sake of gameplay, but it never actually saw such service in WWII. As for the AVRE, the Spigot mortar was designed for taking out fortifications and the charge itself didn't have the same effect as AP rounds. It certainly would put a dent in Axis armor, but it was never intended for that role. It was only employed with Royal Engineer units and not tank corps.
The pershing were used in WW2 for field testing, there is a vidoe of it fighting in a german town agaisnt panthers and infatry and ther eis also a pic of a knocked out pershing that was destroyed by a tiger tank.
We are not, and I repeat ARE NOT putting the Pershing tank back into the modification.
If you have some real evidence other then a video depicting one, small engaugement and a picture then feel free to show it to us on our forum.
I'm not saying that the Pershing didn't fight at all. I'm saying that in comparison to the vehicles that we've included in the mod the amount of combat that the Pershing experienced in the War was extremely seldom, at best.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but it simply isn't a truely realistic option.
The Tigers and King Tigers are still in the Mod as Call ins to show how significantly rare they were, and the Pershing didn't experience enough combat to even justify a one time call in.
I just said it saw combat, not that it needs to be ingame :P
So, I've been playing this mod with 5 other friends on a nightly basis for several months. Most of us, having lineage back to WW2 on both German/US sides we were curious why a large majority of specialized unites weren't included in the realism mod? I can go further in-depth on this question, but I'm looking for a vague answer.
I didn't see this particular post earlier. It's always good to see gamers interested in a higher level of historical accuracy because of interest derived form a family member's service in the conflict. Where did your relatives serve?
If you have questions about specific units and their involvement with our mod/period please do not hesitate to post them. We can certainly offer sufficient explanation why certain units are included over others. We obviously can't include every single unit involved in our time period, but those that are included are for specific reasons. I look forward to your questions/comments on this subject.
en(.)wikipedia).(
org/wiki
/M26_Pershing#cite_note-0
It's taken me less than 3 minutes I've found where M26 variant Pershing's were recorded in combat v/s German armor. Reading is a great tool. Read the pictures and captions on the right side of the page. Also, read the "Super Pershing" section. You're welcome.
I really hope you're kidding about wikipedia, I don't even think it's considered a suitable academic reference at the grade school level. We're clearly talking about substantiated evidence found in published references. Reading something anyone could post on the internet is one thing, actual research is quite another. We consulted countless published editions and government archival data in order to find the information on the almost 150 regiments and battalions represented in our project. People can post anything on the internet, real research is a completely different thing.
Curious, have you read "Pershing: A History of the Medium Tank T20 Series"? It's from a writer who obtained his information from LT. Col Grey, showing lots of pictures and documentation regarding the Pershing and it's involvement during the last MONTHS, not weeks of the war.
If you can find combat reports and other documentation proving the Pershing saw combat against German armor you would be the first in academic history. The Pershing was ONLY used in Operation Varsity and the subsequent crossing of the Rhine but it did not play a direct combat role in any capacity. If it did there would be a plethora of documentation from the participating battalions as it would have been the model's first test in combat against armor/infantry. No such records exist. Combat footage from WWII can be edited to depict almost any type of battle scenario and is used many times in attempt to validate otherwise unsubstantiated claims.
Now, let me get this straight. You're willing to keep a King Tiger II in the game but not the M26 Pershing.
I've never been one for history, so I couldn't pull this information out of a hat. But, thanks to wiki's I've found something interesting.
The Schwere Heeres Panzer Abteilung 501 (s.H.Pz.Abt. 501) arrived on the Eastern Front with only 8 out of 45 tanks operational, mostly due to drivetrain failures. The first five Tiger IIs delivered to the Panzer-Lehr-Division broke down before they could be used in combat, and were destroyed to prevent capture.
Now, more excerpts are found throughout the King Tiger II's section relativity the same in content.
So, I've not counted the numbers yet, but i'm willing to bet more Pershing's seen viable combat than King Tiger's in WW2.
If you're willing to dispute that fact, I'm willing to do the research and prove one of us right.
Pando,
The King Tiger did see combat in WWII starting in 1944. The Pershing only saw service in one operation literally weeks before the war ended and only in an indirect fire role. Any book, not wikipedia, about Operation Varsity can tell you that. Our focus is definitely on historical accuracy, which is why you'll find the King Tiger only as a one time call in for all doctrines, which we feel sufficiently represents it's use on the Western Front.
Not ALL doctrines, it's certainly not available to all doctrines, for those it is available to it is a one time call in.
My question to you is; A. Was the Pershing in the war in 1944? If yes, why is it not in the mod? Is it because the combat it did see, however viable it was, is not significant enough to make it into a video-game mod? In the "historical" department, did they mention how many tanks were retired and no longer in service in 1944? There are more than 9 units by my count that were not reported/documented in combat in 1944 that are in this mod. Or, is this claim of historical accuracy just another puff of smoke?
Please list the units that you think are out of service and I'll state the published references, not a wikipedia page, stating where they were fielded,
I'm not sure how "Operation Varsity, March of 1945" could be construed as 1944.
I think you'll find doing research will only prove your point moot, but feel free to do so, especially before making unsubstantiated claims in the future. We appreciate your interest in N'44, I assure you we know what we're doing in the historical authenticity department.
I'm quite sure the information on wiki's are accurate. If that is not the case, please feel free to sign up and remove the information as not being accurate. Regardless of your opinions, your historical authenticity department needs some work. Either you're horrible at reading, or you have something against specific units.
Here's some information for you if you're into reading.
www(.)
3ad(.)
com/history/news/super(.)
pershing.1.htm
Put it all together and remove the parentheses.
seriously get the hell over it
More information - believe this is the same page i linked you before. Certainly shows more than one operation.
wikipedia(.)
org/wiki/M26_Pershing
Find section; Combat History, subsections World War II and Europe.
Don't bother posting websites, anything that is not published is not credible. Ask any historian or professor of history. You can't just make unsubstantiated claims and expect to render a change in perspective on historical events. WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A CREDIBLE REFERENCE, READ BOOKS!
Dear god, it's like speaking to a wall. Have you taken time to read where the source information comes from? First, I'm not making "unsubstantiated claims". I'm simply relaying information you're to stupid to read/comprehend. I swear, it's like cracking the cover on a book would kill you. I'll get right on asking a Historian his opinion. No thanks, i would rather read first-hand from people who were there, documenting history as it happened. I've supplied the information you've requested. It's not my fault you lack the courage of convictions to see it through.
FYI, I own/have read the book I mentioned above which just by chance is directly related to this issue. You need to read more before making unsubstantiated claims against my person.
Today, after I awaken and fulfill my appointments. I will make it my mission to correct your lack-luster delusional view of how history happened.
Wait, you're implying books are the only credible source when all of the information I've relayed, comes from books? I really wish you would use your intelligence for research instead of " you have unsubstantiated claims". I would love to know which credible historians you've consulted with regarding WW2, and the M20 series.
Sir you have not presented one credible, substantiated reference. I don't see any book title and author above. Wikipedia articles are not completely "relayed" from the sources they simply list and there is no checks or balances to what can be posted there, so the composers may have not even referenced them at all. That is why it is not an acceptable resource in an academic or research environment. The other site you posted has been linked here numerous times, the website is an interesting general overview of veteran's accounts. Veterans accounts are a critical part of research but no doubt they can be exaggerated and/or become faded in their minds over time, this has certainly been my experience. Most veterans have little to no idea what units they actually went up against and can therefore not accurately speak to the logistical aspects of what they witnessed, many will out rightly admit it. Hence the need for PUBLISHED materials that interpret these accounts by cross referencing them with documented combat/battle reports of the time in order to properly organize and present the data about a historical event. I'm saying this for the last time and to be very clear ONLY PUBLISHED SOURCES ARE CREDIBLE AS HISTORICAL REFERENCES. If you find a website directly quoting a PUBLISHED reference that's great and certainly provides more sufficient evidence, but that is not what your sources above are doing. If you can find a PUBLISHED source regarding the M26 Pershing being used outside of Operation Varsity, March 1945, I would LOVE to see it.
Sgt.Pando 8hours 31mins ago replied:
Curious, have you read "Pershing: A History of the Medium Tank T20 Series"? It's from a writer who obtained his information from LT. Col Grey, showing lots of pictures and documentation regarding the Pershing and it's involvement during the last MONTHS, not weeks of the war.
-See this comment above. Like i said, reading must be difficult.
I have not read that book. It's quite a sought after volume as it went out of print back in the 1970's. I'm glad you've found a published source, now you actually have something substantial, but more importantly credible, to work with. Now all you have to do is use the reference and find the section with the combat reports and or regimental/battalion mustering rolls and check the dates of operation and engagement reports and simply cite the pages to make your case. As I said before I implore people to research the aspects of the war they find most interesting and share it with others. You certainly seem to be passionate about this model and rightly so it was an excellent tank, just not one that saw significant service at the beginning of it's career.
I must say I really don't appreciate your snide attitude though, especially after I conveyed to you the simple fact of credible resources being the issue and not the outright denial of any historical facts. Your rude personal remarks were completely unwarranted. I assure you I've been involved with more WWII research, veteran interviews and archaeological projects than you've even heard of, so I certainly know my way around the historical research and don't need to be talked down to by someone who just picked it up this morning. For someone who has "never been one for history" you certainly have demonstrated how fervent you can be about it. I look forward to reading any evidence you find of the M26's service outside of the period I stated earlier, also any evidence validating your first claim that it saw more service than the King Tiger. That would certainly be some excellent research to read as well.
The only reason Wiki's are not publications is the shear size of the content. I'm sure, if wiki's wanted to become publicized they would send off sections of the information. However, wiki's plainly state that you must use your brain when using a wiki as a credible source. I've looked at each citation regarding T20 series tanks, all of them are from books.
As someone who works with those in the publishing industry regularly, specifically military history, I assure you that is not the reason Wikipedia articles are not published.
"Twenty were sent in the first shipment arriving at the port of Antwerp in January 1945. They were given to the First Army, split between the Third and Ninth Armored Divisions.[37] A total of 310 T26E3 tanks would be sent to Europe before VE Day, but only the first 20 would see any combat action." wikipedia(.)org/wiki/M26_Pershing
In January 1945, the mod is called Normandy 44.
Your own sources argue against you.
On top of that "combat action" does not say in what way the tanks were used. If they were ever being shot at or if they were standing around, a few kilometers behind the front, to cover the attack.
I trust therewasatim1939 on this one.
Sorry if I caused so much argueing? I was just asking a question, nor argueing anything should be in the mod, afterall its your work. Also I did not realise how much effort was put into the history behind these units, you went into historical archives for every unit in the game?
Also although it never saw service, the Tortoise would be a pretty cool tank to have in the mod ofc if history was put aside. Not that ime saying it "should" be in the mod, but it would be cool if it was in "a" mod, I see a lot of mensions of the Maus for the Germans in mods hehe
No worries man, you certainly had nothing to do with that. You presented a sincere and respectful question about a unit you are interested in and I answered. Please don't hesitate to inquire about other units in the future. There is a post 1945 MOD, fictional of course, out there I believe. That's your best bet for the Maus. I personally don't know where the Tortoise saw action, but it would be interesting to see made into a model and included in some derivation of COH, it's not likely with our project though.
As for the research we consulted a number of published sources,government archives, mustering rolls and other types of documentation to integrate realistic stats for each unit. As it says in the main description all of the units in game are based off of the actual units down to the battalion level that saw action in the campaigns of our designated time period. I think you'll be very happy with the Soviet units we've included for v2.0, that research was much more difficult but entirely worth it. Thank you for your interest in N'44 and have a happy holiday.
You too man, I look forward to the mods eventual release. happy holidays.