ASh-12 Results at the Meat Locker Thread - The Armed Zone mod for S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Call of Pripyat

Ok, after cleaning up some areas of Jupiter where the Monolith seem to be obsessed with capturing (which resulted in a multitude of dropped firearms to the point where I kept getting Out of Memory CTDs upon approaching said locations. Many back & forth trips with loads of Weapon Dismantling Kits at Switch Distance = 25 later....), it's time to do some selective mutant hunting in the name of weapon testing. The Western backlot area of Jupiter just outside the Electro anomaly building seemed like a decent start, as the mutant spawns here are reliable and random. Same with the Eastern Tunnel, although it's considerably more dangerous and less controlled.

For this instance, I had a pair of Psy-dogs waiting for me. From here, I'll proceed to post my findings on mutants I find. For this exercise, I'll being using the base FMJ ammo as intended for full effect. (Personally, I find the damage drop from using AP ammo on softer foes in this case negligible with such a ruthless caliber, so use whichever you got.)

Unfortunately, the Spawn Dialog won't spawn NPCs or Mutants for me, so I'll just have to keep updating this post with my findings on any mutants I come across. This will mean that this experiment will be less precise, as I won't be able to tell if I'm fighting weak, normal or strong mutant variants in the cases that they might exist.

Dogs - LOL No, I ain't wasting that hot $#!t on literal bitches.

Pseudodogs/Psy-Dogs - 1-2 shots on the body. This was from the Psy-Dog pair I found at said location. Strangely, these findings were very consistent - one always died in one hit, while the other took two. This included shots to their back up close and their side flank. Headshots are likely 1 hit kills.

Flesh - 3 shots on the side/back/rear. Face took up to 10 rounds. Porky's ugly mug ain't just for show.

Bloodsucker (light brown w/grey midsection) - 1 shot body shot? 2 shots were fired, and I'm almost certain the first went between its legs and missed. Must be the Weak variety.

Bloodsucker (Brown/Dark Grey) - 2 body shots. I caught a real lucky break - I found an isolated group of ALL 3 Bloodsucker variants fully visible. This should guarantee them all in good health. This one looks like the Bloodsucker we all know. I think I can safely say this is the Normal one.

Bloodsucker (Ashen Grey w/green) - 2-3 body shots. The "Marsh" Bloodsucker design, likely the Strong variant. Coulda swore it took 3 shots once, although one shot might have missed. Best to leave some wiggle room. On the last test engagement, they made the mistake of coming at me in a line. All 3 ate a fat one in the face and quit out. And here I thought thorough testing on these elusive beasts would prove difficult.

Burer - 6 shots to the body, 4 if all in the face. In other words, forget the face. Fire one shot to get its defenses up, close in quickly, and give it a solid long burst up close once it lets up. Even in near point blank range, a 5-shot burst may be hard to control, but it can be burned down before it gets its psi-blast off. For this example, I got lucky - the Volkhov AA burer had respawned. I don't know if this one specifically is different from other Burers, but I see only one Burer entry in the Spawn Dialog, so I'm guessing probably not.

Chimera (wounded) - 13-14 shots to the body/front. By super luck, I found a lone Chimera just after leaving the Volkhov Burer. However, it already seemed somewhat wounded. By what, I couldn't tell. Didn't put up much of a fight. Hard to say how well it regened, but fat chance it could outpace the ASh. But almost as soon as it went down, I quickly found myself swarmed by...

Cats - 2 body shots, 1 in the dome. I thought to myself "Did Cats really soften up a Chimera that well?" I mean, nothing's faster than a Cat running straight, and there were 4 of them. Still.....they were Cats. I know they excel in inflicting bleeding & shredding armor, but I've little experience in the effects of bleeding on mutants. And a damned Chimera at that? That's like my house cats jumping a Leopard.

Snork - 4-5 shots to the body, likely 5. One if headshot. This one was a tad difficult. Mostly because it took so long to run into some once I sought them out, but then I needed to find them at long enough range to reliably not shoot them in the head. This issue is further compounded by the fact that the ASh-12 is not the most accurate gun at even medium ranges, and it's shaky as $#!t. Still, 5 shots always seemed to be enough, even if they didn't always all hit. I kinda assumed that in many attempts there was possibly one missed shot. Snorks in Misery are surprisingly durable, and when you can find anywhere between 2 to 7 of them at once...

Chimera - Actually, f$ck it. ASh-12's a bad choice for these. I just lost count of how many shots had missed after I got to about 40 hits or so, and it still wasn't dead yet. The gun's too shakey to reliably put rounds fast enough into something that never stops strafing & leaping. After a few frustrating attempts, I simply pulled out a rapid 7.62x39 shooter with Soft Points that was far easier to control. I could speedily burst fire it with better accuracy, and was downing them considerably quicker. What's also noteworthy is that I found a pair of them, but while one came after me, the other split off to tackle a nearby quad of Loners. 2 out of 4 of them went down, but they managed to down the other Chimera, not long after mine. All were using rapid fire shooters of intermediate rounds at close range - one had a Vintorez. That seems to be the key with Chimeras - rapid, on-point application damage to outpace its regen, something the ASh-12 has issues doing after all.

Zombified Stalkers - 1-2 shots on average. These deadheads take punishment better from most other calibers, but this heavy round doesn't seem to care if their brains are fried or not - they drop 'em just as easily as any other faction. A couple of them couldn't even last a single shot, but most took 2.

Tushkanos - Does this even need to be said? I'm trying to create the bodies, not vaporize them.

Poltergeists - Trying to shoot a moving target which is the size equivalent of a floating coin with what feels like the ballistics of a paintball is the unofficial definition of a bad time.

Pseudogiant - 32 shots to the body....head.....thing?. Considering how much I've complained about how weak Pseudos are now, I'd been looking forward to this. The results were pretty much what I'd anticipated. 32 clean hits, with the majority delivered at close range for minimal chance of missed shots. Regen clearly did not play a factor here. 32 shots = about 2.3kg. If only losing weight was this easy.

Boar - uh, like Flesh, but weaker. Yeah, real descriptive. But here's the thing, where Boars are rampant in Zaton, they're sort of a rare sight in Yanov, and I only just realized why - everything's killing them! If it's not NPC shooting them down, they're getting their ass whooped by other mutants giving chase. I've come across boars on several occasions freshly dead - fresh enough to loot. Seems like everything's a couple steps ahead in the quest for ham. In the remote situations where one's trying to run past me, they usually go down with just a couple shots to the side. I thought that maybe they were weak variants, but Boar doesn't have that according to the Spawn Dialog, just plain normal Boar, and the Strong version. I've never seen them be weaker than Flesh, and something about that doesn't sit right with me.

Edited by: Servalion

Some interesting journey you got there, I can't tell whether that's how the Ash12 is meant to work or not, so I'll let kuba do so. I'm just here to laugh at the blind cykas, damn annoying hoes, they neither kill you fast nor leave you be, they just keep biting your ass till your outfit is all shredded. Fooken pricks.

Yeah, I ended up killing some dogs anyways with it. Surprise, 1 shot, every time. Strangely, my walk around Yanov was largely devoid of most mutants in the usual locations after that, besides mostly ones I'd already shot. Too many Flesh herds around, but not even a Boar? It's almost 8am. Another night spent up until dawn for little reason other than an obsessive love of the game. I better hit the hay, and continue this later.

There was a different encounter earlier that I couldn't find again for more precise data. A group of dogs and Pseudos swarmed me, as if that wasn't bad enough, but then a pair of Bloodsuckers hit me as well. I took out the mutts while avoiding the duo. They were colored differently. Hardier too, although I couldn't be certain of the hits due to the chaos and having to hipfire a bit. One took either 2 or 3 body hits, and the other 3 or 4, maybe even 5. I'd guess that the first one was a Normal Bloodsucker, while the other was the Strong variant. I know they're all colored differently, and the tougher one had that Marsh Bloodsucker look to it. But yeah, I couldn't find that pack upon reloading the last save, so I'd render it inconclusive for now.

Mutants have slow HP regeneration so if it fought with something earlier before you came in then he might be on, say, half HP value and might come down from single shot.

About spawning, area near Jupiter seems to be not working, I always use Zaton swamp area (best to sit on top of Shevchenko - can test damage on longer ranges easier) or assaulter spawn area (wall being Ranger station)

That's a good point on HP regeneration. I've noticed small hints of it, even as recent as last night. Like for example, in that dual bloodsucker fight that I couldn't repeat. I got one limping as I was really pacing out single shots. Got one holding its wound like "Aw f@ck", then I held off a bit so I could be sure which bloodsucker I was focused on. But after a few more passes from each of them, I noticed that neither one seemed wounded anymore and were back to normal. I held off even longer, wondering if the wounded one took off and a 3rd bloodsucker had joined up. That's some pretty decent regen on them in that case.

In fact, I bet its what makes the Chimeras so tough. They probably regen like mad, and their whole "Hippity, Hoppity, you're now my property" shtick gives it ample time to work, especially when they run away. When they're not long range targets, they're jumping all around you, or making you jump away, which stretches out the time spent to shoot them, buying the regen time to work and keep the fight going. Its why I blew like 100 rounds of .44 Magnum from a Desert Eagle, and about 120 rounds of .50 AE from another Desert Eagle on one Chimera, only having 15 .50 AEs left when it finally died. Too much time spent reloading and lining up shots again with the recoil. The damage was there, but the DPS wasn't. Beefy Boi needs a more rapid, heavy-hitting solution.

On the other side, Pseudogiant probably has little, if any regen. It's also not only among the slowest targets, but it's also the biggest. So not only does it not recover from damage well, but you can usually unload into it like few other mutants allow. Unfettered DPS potential with subpar defense makes for an easy kill. On top of that, there's a decent chance to find a Night Star or Gravi on one (someone's gotta explain that one to me). Spent about 1kg of ammo on one, get 4-12kg in mutant parts & artifact loot? Seems a bit lopsided in our favor.

But thanks for reminding me - Zaton's packed with mutants in the right spots compared to Yanov.

Shevchenko's a good spot (top of Noah's Barge too, if you don't mind being bold and forgoing cover), but it'd be terrible for the ASh-12. These big ass bullets are slooooooooow. Quite similar to the 9x39s and Vychlop rounds, so there's significant drop as well. (These guns really need certain upgrades, Flatness upgrades are of huge benefit to them.) Not much mutant variety either. Mostly Flesh & Boars on the hills across from the ships, usually. But if you want a firefight, its the place to be. It's basically a huge marshland arena between Skadovsk & Noah's barge with Shevchenko right in the middle. Especially in this mod, you'll usually be late to the party with bodies everywhere for the picking - just be sure the victors are on your side first.

Ranger station usually has someone in it or nearby. Issue is, that's usually NPCs, not mutants. I've seen a Chimera there, once. Beyond that, it's usually a lazy day spot for Bandits or a touring Merc lot. In fact, more often these days, I find them not in the Station, but walking around the road beside it, and especially the hill between the station and the Preobrazhensky bridge. That last one's a real hostile hot spot, and can catch you by surprise, even if you're expecting as you approach. A good variety of non-NPC hostiles can spawn on the arc under the bridge, however. I've seen Zombies, Izloms, Snorks, Zombified Stalkers, Burers & Controllers show up there.

If you REALLY wanna throw yourself in the $#!T, however, I know just the place - The whole backwoods area between the Iron Forest chopper (Stingray 2) & the Gaseous anomaly Chopper (Stingray 5) is teeming with every mutant that can possibly be, and often multiples of them. They like to throw down at the campsite directly behind the Oakpine Anomaly - head there and they'll often come to you. The open field behind the Krug is the real danger zone - the worst of the lot can often be found there either waiting for your curious ass, or battling it out among themselves. Controllers, Pseudogiant pairs & Chimera pairs can be found here with high frequency. I'd managed to get some new results in Yanov, but later on, I'll head Zaton where I'm sure I can get the rest done. Besides reliable spawns of uncommon Mutants at the Volkhov AA, it's been boring, and ASh-12 & its ammo really weighs you down.

Ok, I think I've done enough testing with the ASh-12. I've edited my initial post at the top with all of my findings. Didn't bother looking for Zombies or Izloms. Both are piss easy "Shoot me" fodder that it'd be a waste of such exotic ammo. While I thought about trying it against a controller, I decided that this wasn't the best of ideas. Most of the time you're engaging a Controller from a considerable distance, while poking out from cover. Getting into the intended range for the ASh might leave you uncomfortably close and possibly without sufficient cover. This wouldn't be a big problem in any other situation since you can rush a Controller if it's close enough to where it will prefer to try to melee you instead if you're within spitting distance of it, but Misery makes a Controller's psy-field freakishly strong, and even end game gear might not make it insignificant, depending on your chosen class and intended optimal armor types. Also, I couldn't find any in the last few days.

After using it for so long, it's an interesting option that needs a good bit of control exercised to use it well, and most of the time you're going to be employing single shots at all ranges just to keep it managable. Honestly, its the extreme recoil that sorta kills it - even 2 shot burst attempts at all but punching distance often means wasted ammo. Now I understand that the round it uses is huge and borderline extreme for an automatic. Calling it a ".50 Cal SMG" doesn't really do it justice. But like the Thompson, I would think that its high weight would play a significant factor in its recoil management. This huge thing is 6.1kg, empty. Load it up with FMJs and slap on a Susat, and now you're at 8. That's more than an unloaded PKM, which is known for its low(er than expected) kick. The ASh-12 is a prime example of why upgrading the RoF at a technician isn't always, or isn't even usually a good idea. Sure, you can lower the recoil with the right upgrades, but its not usually enough to counter the added accumulative recoil that comes with faster firing. Hell, sometimes I wish I could upgrade a gun to lower it's RoF, and this is one of them.

EDIT: And for some reason, any attempt I make to make a new post simply gets merged into my last post as if I merely edited that one. Since that means this thread isn't getting bumped, not sure if people will notice this. Must be a "feature" since my post was the last in the thread, but it's quite the hindrance instead.

Edited by: Servalion

Pushing your thread so you can write more I'll leave niick to come and see the results.

Thx for that. Kinda sucked having that last post be way longer than intended, but its basically 2 or 3 posts merged together into one against my will. Just a bit glad to put the ASh-12 down for now. Such a heavy burden......definitely not something to carry around all the time.

That thing is surely heavy, but it can't be as heavy as a frigging M249 or an M60, I carried one of those around in two different playthroughs, man these two are heavy af! they force you to cut loose so much loot and any extra weapons. I always prefer an average AR like a SCAR, M4, or even the AMD65, and a pump action shotgun, mostly M620 and Remington 870, long barreled pumps, and a pistol or revolver, sometimes both. My current loadout is a customized SCAR-H, M620 Stevens, P226, and a Mateba, this is my favorite mix so far. I had the MP5K when I carried the M249, it's a very cool SMG for both; backup and even assaulting, I even used it to clear Jack's gang and totally forgot I had the M249 :p

I do miss a solid shotgun of average size. I'm starting to think the AA12 is excessive for lugging around everywhere. Sure, you can't beat its speedy reload and huge capacity, but it still kicks more than I expected, especially with successive automatic shots, and I still end up tap firing. Furthermore, that peep ring sight isn't to my liking for a rapid fire weapon - it just slows down my time to re-aim the weapon in my opinion. Granted, I see that there's two more AA12 variants, and I've only seen/found the base one, so perhaps time will tell if I find a super rare one and like it better.

Traditionally, I like me a good action shotgun of average size and medium-long barrel length. Something either pump action or semi- with a good tight spread for improved range and that true shotgun feel. In my many romps into CoC, I'd play around with both STCoP and AO, usually alternating between them on different playthroughs. I'll enjoy a good pump action if the RPM is ok, and the time between shots isn't unnecessarily drawn out. The animation also plays a large part in this. I'm usually turned off by pump action animations that feel "Hollywoodized". This generally means when anyone unnecessarily moves the gun to the side or the sky just to pump it. Like, does it make pumping easier? Is swinging it close so its pointing at your side to cock it easier worth all that time to take it off your target and then aim it back in position? It feels like a massive waste of time, as if you're -not- concerned that you're in combat or that they'll attack back. I find it hard to respect anything but keeping the gun generally pointed at what you're shooting at while pumping.

A lot of pump shottys in mods fail this for me, so I often found myself with a semi-auto eventually. In STCoP and AO, this usually meant either the SAIGA-12 or the Baikal MP-153, often the latter. I think AO even lets you buy it from Nimble as early as possible. I've found the base MP-153 in TAZ a few times, and while it performs well for me, the animation is......well, stiff. Reload's fine. It's the firing. You line up the shot and fire, and....the gun doesn't really appear to move. It kicks with recoil, sure, but the gun itself appears still, stiff as a board. I got lucky finding an AA12 decently early compared to most other shotguns, so I overlooked most pump-actions after that. It didn't help that they're often found in terrible condition, not generally worth much to sell compared to many other firearms, and can't take Large Weapon Spare Parts, which all combined doesn't make them worth it to repair & sell for profit. Thus, the few Shotgun Repair Kits I find are saved for only the priciest shotguns, almost all Semi-. Shortly before I found my AA-12 though, I did find and patch up a Remingtom 870 (Custom) and a Remington 870 MCS. I did enjoy the feel and the look of them, especially the Custom. Firing animations feel sensible more immersive. The MCS is the only pump I've seen so far worth enough to patch up & sell. They're both long gone, but shortly after I saw your post about them, a funny thing happened. An unlucky Bandit brought me a unique one I'd yet to see - the Remington 870 Police Folder (Custom). Definitely an interesting look. I was surprised to see a level of accuracy that should beat most that aren't the long hunting shotguns or the Beretta 682. It also boasts superior damage to most others. Stranger still, it sells to Bonesetter fully repaired for like less than 9000 RU. I'll definitely have fun rocking this around while I hunt that Custom MP-153 and the other AA12 variants.

As for the .44s, I do enjoy slamming some hard slugs in stuff here and there, but now I have a few options and I'm torn on which to go with. Initially, it was a Desert Eagle .44 (Custom). Surprisingly easy to find compared to the others. But eventually I found a Mateba on a Merc, and then an eccentric Bandit brought a Winchester 1892 to play with. The Deagle's got that kick, but it can fire & reload faster. The Mateba's got respectable accuracy & RoF combined with only moderate recoil, plus that unique detail & look - I can see why you like it so much.

Winchester's got highest capacity, damage & accuracy and low recoil, but reloading is understandably sluggish. Oddly, the firing is, too. Its one of those strange guns with the issue of a RPM so low that it forces you to wait until long after the firing animation is done to shoot again. It feels close to a whole second between the animation's end and the next shot. I thought this might be because you could upgrade its RoF so it'd be faster but not cut the cocking animation short. But then I checked, and there's no RoF upgrades for it. It currently has an RPM of 40. I bumped it up to 60 to test and now it feels just right, like you're firing hurriedly but still only as fast as you can. If you have the Spawn Dialog to test, try doing the same and tell me what you think. Until any official patch change, I think I'll go with the Mateba as a good compromise between RoF and control. Although I see some entries for the Automag .44 in the Spawner, I prefer to find guns naturally, so here's hoping one pops up eventually. I do love me some Dirty Harry.

My main thought lately isn't really a complaint but more of a curiosity. As I've been wondering which 7.62x39 shooter to go with, I usually go for nicer, newer guns with the bells and whistles when I have the dosh or when I'm lucky enough to find one. But in this regard, I don't think I've seen any newer guns shooting such than the AK-103 or the Sako RK 95 TP, both of which made their mark in the mid-90s. If there's any newer guns firing this classic round in the mod already, I'm unaware of such. And speaking of which, if there's any good, attractive weapon models of the new AK-12/AK-15 series for purchase out there, let me know and I'll see if I can contribute.

Edited by: Servalion

I see the AA12 more like a gun for hipfire more than one for accurate aiming, you got so many shells to fire in a short time, and the recoil is way too low compared to all other semi auto shotguns, but it can never be my main shotgun. My main are always pumps, esp those I mentioned, M620 and R870, standard long one. There is a very nice pump that I used some time ago, it is a very effective one too, Winchester 1300 Defender Tactical. Accurate, high damage, and pump animation is tactical as well. The only downside of this pump is the long range, it's perfect for mid and close range and will never fail you. It kept me alive since I found it on WPP all the way to the evacuation mission, literally a whole playthrough! and it's maintainance is very cheap, esp if you apply reliability upgrades.

Deagles are quite handy since they come in different calibers, but I can't find myself carrying one for too long, they got that kick which throws you away if your first shot misses, or if your target does not fall, I prefer a 9mm or .45 pistol or anything else over deagles, Mateba has a very handy recoil and a great punch, for me it's the perfect revolver, I'd only put it down for another revolver if the looks are refreshing, but eventually I'll get back to it :p A 9mm P226 will always be my main sidearm no matter how many guns we have. Concerning the Automag, that thing is not fully implemented in the game, you can only spawn it. Niick has better info about guns distribution, and from what he explained the Automag should never be available in the zone. Maybe we'll bring it back when we make Nimble a full fledged trader, which we're working on right now.

I'm not a fan of 7.62x39 weapons, dunno why, but you can try the RK62, a nice looking AR, the best looking RK in the mod too. AMD is my all time choice when I end up with too much ammo. I think I have some AK12 models laying around proper models too, I'll see what I have and whether it fits with STALKER. Thanks for the good will tho'!

Yeah, hopefully not the old AK-12 early Prototypes that are everywhere by now. In fact, I don't think any Stalker mod has done the final AK-400 series production models. If you implement it successfully, I'm dead certain that you'd be the first! And I wouldn't worry about them fitting into Stalker - if M27 IARs and FB MSBS Grots have managed to fall into the hands of Monolith & Mercs, it'd make even more sense that PMC groups with close ties to Russia would have a chance at their own bleeding edge hardware.

All the ones I've seen have that interesting Desert Digital camo appearance by default. The only difference between the AK-12 & AK-15 is their caliber, so you could reasonably get away with doing 2-for-1 with the same model. Short barreled versions also exist (AK-12K & AK-15K), but are unnecessary.

While the AK-12 finally seems possible at long last, the RPK-16 is more wishful thinking. It appears to be far more of an LSW take on the new AKs rather than merely a modern RPK-74. Also, comes standard with 96-round drums? Oomph.

Finally, there's the AK-308. Yes, it's almost exactly what you think - an AK firing 7.62x51. It would seem that there's enough interest outside of Russia to warrant such. I managed to run into a good video with a Kalashnikov Koncern rep explaining many of their latest developments, including these in all Black furniture finish, and some surprising new additions towards the end.

And yeah, that's the AK-308 he's holding in the initial pic.

Edited by: Servalion

Although I see some entries for the Automag .44 in the Spawner, I prefer to find guns naturally, so here's hoping one pops up eventually. I do love me some Dirty Harry.

Nope, we decided to keep AutoMag as somewhat of an "easter egg" for the reason that this gun is cool, but doesn't really fit the game world well. It uses unique 44AMP ammo, dedicated for it, which isn't available at all in Europe. The only way to possibly get it would be to hand load it. In game it would require adding yet another ammo type (preferably at least two) that wouldn't really bring much apart from a little bit of curiosity, and would also require fitting it into game world and lore... for which I didn't have any idea. As said before maybe we will find some idea later, we're working on traders system now so maybe then it there will be some space for it

any newer guns shooting such than the AK-103 or the Sako RK 95 TP, both of which made their mark in the mid-90s

Yes, those are the most modern weapons chambered in 7.62x39, which isn't very far from what is going on in real world, since there are only few new guns in this caliber, all of them came out of last few years. We'll be looking to introduce Bren 2 in 7.62x39 if a good model will be available, maybe also MSBS-7.62 (basically Grot with 7.62x39 mag) and new AK-12 and AK-15 too. But that's for yet unspecified future, for now AK-103 is probably your best bet for most modern one.
From what I can add is that 7.62x39 has one cool overlooked feature, which is that it's velocity is not very dependent on barrel length and it keeps almost entirety of it's power even when shot from short barreled carbine (same with .300BLK), like Zastava M92. So by choosing this little gun you have basically same power as if you took a full-size AKM, but it's shorter, more compact and lighter. Recoil is somewhat higher but still possible to manage, and for fights in close quarters it's not a big drawback. Plus you won't really have much precision with other 7.62x39mm rifles either, so for me M92 is one of the best choices in this caliber.

BTW forgot to mention, I reworked the recoil pattern of ASh12, it's now on G3/FAL level. Effector also matches battle rifles

Edited by: czwarty_

Nope, we decided to keep AutoMag as somewhat of an "easter egg" for the reason that this gun is cool, but doesn't really fit the game world well. It uses unique 44AMP ammo, dedicated for it, which isn't available at all in Europe. The only way to possibly get it would be to hand load it. In game it would require adding yet another ammo type (preferably at least two)

Ahh, that makes a lot of sense actually. .44 AMD? Bah. I thought it was plain .44 Magnum. Shows what I know. I hate it when a neat firearm is doomed to fade into obscurity because of a proprietary caliber that fails to catch on and a lack of drive to adapt to existing calibers (SR-2 Veresk?). It would definitely be a collector's piece that would be hard to justify finding in the Zone, and that you definitely wouldn't expect to see again (like the Winchester, or the Beretta 682). I actually found a news article about a new company resuming Auto Mag production and offering it in 3 new calibers, which got my hopes up, until I saw the options: .44 AMP, .357 AMP and .45 Win Mag. None of which works for us. Ahh well, it's neat anyways.

Yes, those are the most modern weapons chambered in 7.62x39, which isn't very far from what is going on in real world, since there are only few new guns in this caliber, all of them came out of last few years.

Yeah, this is one of those cases where perhaps newer isn't necessarily better. Since writing that post, I found myself trying out a bunch of different 7.62x39 shooters. In many Misery playthroughs, I usually ended up with an AK-103 in some form. But I remember now that AK-103 & the Sako RKs are Misery guns. Also tried both with a 1p29 sight, which just served to underline its inaccuracy with tracer fire at range. With that in mind, I strove for TAZ offerings. This led to 2 choices - the AMD-65, and the vz. 58s. I quickly found myself preferring either of these options with their improved performance, animations & sound, true to TAZ quality. Oddly, I don't think I'd seen any vz. 58s in game this playthrough, and no one sells any of the variants. A shame, since the Custom version seems to offer better control & improved ironsights. An AMD was easy enough to kill for & acquire. In the end, the AMD-65 won me over with the concept of its unique nature selling me on it. I made some personal edits to its recoil to try and simulate the effectiveness of its fixed brake after watching several videos of muzzle brake reviews & AMD test firings. Its reported to be very effective at what it does, although the sound becomes deafening at either side of the gun. Where as by default it's maybe 9% lighter recoil than your standard AK-47s in game, in reality, its probably more like 35-40% reduction in comparison. The ease of shooting it is offset by average accuracy, mediocre durability, and the inability to silence it. A smoother shooter with increased risks. I can take that gamble.

We'll be looking to introduce Bren 2 in 7.62x39 if a good model will be available

Oooh, here's hoping then. I've yet to give the Bren much practice, but that's good to hear. If it's good enough for the French GIGN, it'll be great for us. Don't forget that the CZ 807 is 7.62x39 as well, so either will work.

maybe also MSBS-7.62 (basically Grot with 7.62x39 mag)

Neat. I was under the impression that the 7.62x39 variant of the Grot was only available in its standard Conventional format, which more resembles a Remington ACR. After looking back though, I can't find anything stating that it couldn't be available in the Bullpup build, so that's more good news.

and new AK-12 and AK-15 too

I seriously can't wait for these to finally see the light of day with the TAZ treatment. I expect that they'll be super expensive, as the prototype AK-12s already are, and are carried around even less often by NPCs, with only a tiny chance if any to be offered by traders.

From what I can add is that 7.62x39 has one cool overlooked feature, which is that it's velocity is not very dependent on barrel length and it keeps almost entirety of it's power even when shot from short barreled carbine (same with .300BLK), like Zastava M92.

Now that's a curious benefit. Makes me wonder why they didn't try making an AKS-74U in that caliber. Wait, scratch that - both are inaccurate enough without combining the two. Still, I see plenty of Zastavas about. Perhaps I'll try one the next time one drops. I remember how the Krinkov was one of my favorite Secondary weapons in Payday 2. Kinda hard to control, but the hard hits it delivered would plow me through the danger.

BTW forgot to mention, I reworked the recoil pattern of ASh12, it's now on G3/FAL level. Effector also matches battle rifles

Now that sounds like a great change. I'll look forward to giving it another (lot of) shots in the next update.

Also, did you catch my observation on the Winchester 1892 up there in my word walls? I was wondering on your take of it since you seem to be the gun guy.

Edited by: Servalion

The AMD currently has similar recoil reduction, in numbers it's like 1.35 for AKM and 1.0 for AMD, but since the anims are different (currently recoil is affected by anims too) you might be right and it might feel like it kicks bit too much. I'll inspect it's recoil later.
About the Winchester it wasn't even supposed to be in game actually, it must be some old leftover, it was ditched exactly because anims problems

BTW It's completely true about that muzzle device. My friend has it on his vz58, it's very nice, slashes the felt recoil in half and muzzle rise is also much lower, but goddamn it's loud as fuck. You don't hear it *that* much when you're behind it (shooting), but when you're on the side of someone who shoots one it's insane. I forgot my active protection and I was just wearing some light earplugs that day (something like hickok's) and I felt as if someone jabbed needles in my eardrums every time he took a shot. I had to go and rent full-on hearing protectors because it was hard to stand it. I don't even want to know what Hungarian conscripts had to go through training with these rifles with no protection whatsoever.

Edited by: czwarty_

So, I forgot to mention. A short while back, I decided to personally alter Pseudogiants further. I set its hit_fraction_monster to = 0.15, so it's kinda how it used to be. Against bullets anyways - still soft to explosives, and can't handle more than 3 VOGs. I left its skin_armor as normal at = 0.55. This got me drastically different results.

I used a tricked out MPX for this, as I wanted commonly available ammo for more generalized results.

Decided to have a go with the high end 9mm, the +P+ JHPs. Took 5 full mags, and most of a 6th before he died. This got me anticipating the next attempt, and my hunch was right on.

Attempt #2. This time with the AP 9mm. Took just over 2 mags worth, like 62-65 shots. Less than half the soft-punching alternative. This confirms what I'd started to suspect - their skin_armor indeed plays an important factor, but also depending on the hit_fraction_monster. If I'm judging it right, I picked just the right ammo, as the 9mm AP has an in-game Penetration Rating of 6/10, just enough to beat the Giant's 0.55 rating, if the Penetration roughly means it will pierce skin_armor = 0.60 and lower.

This explains why it took me forever to kill a chimera with .44 Magnum & .50 AE pistols - Their skin_armor's high as high as a Pseudogiants, and the bigger pistol calibers have lousy penetration values. Regen may play a factor somewhat, but it was never the real issue after all. It would seem that we must be mindful of certain tougher mutants. Fortunately, there's only a handful of mutants that are the exception. Burers have a skin_armor of 0.3, while Bloodsuckers have a skin_armor of 0.4. But their hit_fraction_monster values are 0.75-.80, so it may not be significant enough to make AP ammo the winner there. In fact I'd go as so far to say that using plain ammo might be better.

The thickest of the lot may surprise you - Snorks! At a skin_armor = 0.7, they're the most naturally armoured being in the Zone by a solid margin. Combine that with a moderate hit_fraction_monster of = 0.65, and we see why they're so durable here compared to most other mods. I need to go find some to test against, but for the time being, I'd say definitely use AP ammo against Pseudogiants, Chimeras and Snorks.