Feedback for Duke Forces Thread - Duke Forces mod for Duke Nukem 3D

Going off of what was discussed in a PM:

I got some questions for you before I get on with my nitpicks, bare with me here.

1. What do you have planned for the weapons in later versions? Will there be more added? Will they get tweaked?

2. Same as number 1, but with enemies.

3. How many episode end perks are there? So far I have only gotten 3, and Force Choke wasn't one of them.

4. Do you plan on adding more perks?

5. What else do you have planned that I haven't asked about?

6. Are you aiming this mod's content to be in line with the Star Wars lore? Such as equipment functionality etc.

I'll add and change lots of stuff, but there would be no point in getting into specifics right now, especially since any ideas I have now are likely to change.

Alright, here is my list of nitpicks.

1. Thermal Detonators in Duke's hand is way too small, they are supposed to be the size of a baseball.

2. When using a force ability, Duke raises his left hand. That's fine up until he raises his left hand when his left hand is still present and holding a weapon in a gun sprite. I recommend lowering the weapon sprites further on the screen more to avoid that awkwardness.

3. Droidekas should not even exist in the Rebellion era in which this seems to all take place in. In all honesty, I would like them removed from the MOD. They are super annoying to deal with because of those shields, and they stand out too much compared to the other enemies due to them being 3D models.

4. The Battlelord replacement you have going isn't a robot, it's an exo suit. General Mohc (the last boss of Dark Forces) pilots this, the Phase 3 Dark Trooper suit. Although I did find its dialogue quite humorous, it doesn't fit being used by Star Wars characters.

5. The weapons in this MOD feel like they are underperforming, this is due to them either being underpowered, or enemies having too much HP, or both.

6. I'd like to read this backstory you have going for this MOD, but as it stands, I really feel the D3D enemies should be left out of the MOD.

7. The enemies could use some revision, especially in the spawning department. Trandoshans spawning in place of Pig Cops for instance, is way OP for Duke maps.

8. Weapons could also use some revision, they do not function like they are supposed to.

9. Tie Fighters are so out of place in this MOD that it just looks silly with the way they function. I would recommend changing it into something else.

Here is a list of suggested tweaks for the current content:

Weapons:

1. Lightsaber - I have mixed feelings about this weapon. I really don't think it should have an ammo count for starters. The auto-deflecting of projectiles consumes it rather quick, and in most cases it isn't a 1-shot kill. And in a LOT of cases, you don't want to use this against more than 3-4 enemies, otherwise you take too much damage making it not worth the effort. I would change it to have a self recharging ammo capacity, and that ammo capacity would basically act as fatigue for how long you can deflect projectiles. That would make it much more better.

2. DL-44 Blaster - This thing should be hitting things rather hard. This is basically the hand cannon of the Star Wars universe, so nothing humanoid should be taking more than a few hits from this. I recommend using a different blaster as a starter weapon for it to be more accurate to the current stats you have setup. Or maybe allow weapon upgrades and allow the current one (provided it is beefed up) to replace the new one later down the road.

3. E-11 Blaster - This version is actually pretty nice, nothing wrong here.

4. Imperial Repeater - This weapon is OK, but it doesn't function accurately to the original. The projectiles are not lasers, they are metallic bolts, and currently they seem like lasers. The alt-fire is supposed to be a triple shot burst in a triangle formation that can sustain a low ROF if you lay on the trigger. This purpose of it's design was to effectively shoot at Jedi so they can't deflect the projectiles and basically force them into a defense only position. It also made it more effective against larger targets since the bolts do not spread and are propelled with more force.

5. Packered Mortar Gun - This weapon was OK, but I would much prefer the original functionality of it. Primary fire should shoot impact mortars, the alt-fire should shoot ricocheting mortars, both fire modes should explode on contact with damageable objects.

6. Thermal Detonators - It should function the same way as the mortar described above by default.

7. Fusion Cutter - The weapon sprite looks better than the original, but the projectiles are meh. I would recommend using the original projectiles, they had more oomph to them.

8. Stouker Concussion Rifle - This weapon is underpowered in the player's hands, and it doesn't function like the original. The primary fire projectile is pretty accurate (projectile is supposed to be a very very light blue color), but the alt-fire is not. The alt-fire does not function like a hit-scan laser weapon, it is supposed to be a fast traveling ring-like projectile. Also, neither of the fired projectiles can be blocked by a Lightsaber, if it were attempted it would explode on contact of the blade. Force users have to use Force Push to deflect concussion rounds, or pull the guns from the enemy's hands.

9. I.M. Mines - I actually like your version a lot better than the original, so no complaints here from me.

10. Wookie Bowcaster - This weapon is underpowered, it needs to be buffed.

11. Assault Cannon - This weapon's primary fire is way off from the original. The primary fire is supposed to function like an automatic explosive laser cannon, but instead you have it functioning like a FC-1 Flechette gun (flak cannon). The alt fire is mostly accurate, but the explosion radius of the rocket is too small, it needs to be bigger. This weapon would be so much better if it was accurate to the original.

Suggested Additions:

1. I would add in either the Rail Detonator from DF2, or the Merr-Sonn PLX-2M Portable Missile System from Jedi Outcast. The MOD kind of needs a tactical rocket launcher instead of a slow moving nuke launcher (which is what the alt-fire for the Assault Cannon is supposed to act as.) The Rail Detonator alt-fire sticks to targets before exploding, the PLX-2M fires guided missiles. The Carbonite Gun would be nice to have for close quarters if you don't have a Lightsaber yet, it is basically a liquid nitrogen sprayer.

2. I would definitely add The Phase 1 and Phase 2 Dark Troopers into the game as enemies. Phase 1 would be a great replacement for the alien drones, and Phase 2 would be best suited as the Battlelord replacement. The current Phase 3 you have in the game would be best as the Overlord replacement.

3. I wouldn't mind seeing a character progression type thing with force abilities as seen in Dark Forces 2 and Jedi Outcast. Or maybe be able to pick a secondary perk tree, one for guns, one for force, and one for engineering. There definitely needs to be more perks added regardless.

Edited by: Valherran

I appreciate the feedback and I agree with some of it. I will definitely be going over this list the next time I make major changes. I will probably disappoint you, though, because I am not trying to replicate the functionality of the original weapons.

Valherran wrote:

1. Lightsaber - I have mixed feelings about this weapon. I really don't think it should have an ammo count for starters. The auto-deflecting of projectiles consumes it rather quick, and in most cases it isn't a 1-shot kill. And in a LOT of cases, you don't want to use this against more than 3-4 enemies, otherwise you take too much damage making it not worth the effort. I would change it to have a self recharging ammo capacity, and that ammo capacity would basically act as fatigue for how long you can deflect projectiles. That would make it much more better.

2. DL-44 Blaster - This thing should be hitting things rather hard. This is basically the hand cannon of the Star Wars universe, so nothing humanoid should be taking more than a few hits from this. I recommend using a different blaster as a starter weapon for it to be more accurate to the current stats you have setup. Or maybe allow weapon upgrades and allow the current one (provided it is beefed up) to replace the new one later down the road.

As I said, I will definitely be going over your list when I'm making changes. There's a lot I won't actually comment on, though. I'm going to comment on these two points, for different reasons.

On the lightsaber, you should understand that my goal was to make a balanced weapon that allowed the player to have some fun but would also force him to still use guns. I believe I succeeded, and your criticisms actually show that. In other words, I'm probably not going to change it much.

On the DL-44 Blaster, I think you are probably right. At one time we had a nice edit of the Bryar pistol in the game, and I was persuaded to replace it with the DL-44. But I wanted it to remain a weak starter weapon, so that is how we ended up with it as it is. Now I am thinking that the player should start with the Bryar and the DL-44 should be an upgrade.

On the lightsaber, you should understand that my goal was to make a balanced weapon that allowed the player to have some fun but would also force him to still use guns. I believe I succeeded, and your criticisms actually show that. In other words, I'm probably not going to change it much.

If you think I was trying to blitz an army with it, then no I wasn't. I just didn't like the fact it drained my ammo so fast deflecting projectiles. I used it more to get away from a firefight if it spawned on me. The only time I really fought things with it was when I was in a vent system, 1v1 a single foe, or when I came across a Sith if I didn't have an Assault Cannon.

I will probably disappoint you, though, because I am not trying to replicate the functionality of the original weapons.

The weapons as they stand were pretty stale, no offense. But half of that was due to the enemies being so damn resilient. Going closer to the original functionalities would make them a lot more fun and balanced.

Another thing I want to bring up; that mini squid monster that replaced the slimes, you need to remove their ability to shrink on hit. That shit was so cheap, and it is incredibly imbalanced for duke maps. If they shrink you in a vent system, insta-death. Not cool.

Valherran wrote:

Going closer to the original functionalities would make them a lot more fun and balanced.

I thought it was fun and more "balanced" than the original duke3d - which made it that much more challenging, entertaining, and "fun"

You're entitled to your opinions, but they are only opinions.

xforgex wrote:

Valherran wrote:

Going closer to the original functionalities would make them a lot more fun and balanced.

I thought it was fun and more "balanced" than the original duke3d - which made it that much more challenging, entertaining, and "fun"

You're entitled to your opinions, but they are only opinions.

Forge, I am pretty sure he is saying that he wants the weapons closer to how they worked in Dark Forces, not Duke 3D. Most of the weapon sprites come straight from Dark Forces, so players who remember that game expect them to work the same way.

Edited by: DeeperThought

I know what he's saying. Most of it is legitimate.

What's "fun" is subjective.

I can understand "functioinality" and "behavior", but he's also saying a lot of them are under powered. If you make them too powerful, then the balance will get thrown off - and the mod will end up like the original duke3d game where the player is walking around with max health and ammo most of the time.

Edited by: xforgex

Agreed. I might reduce enemy health in a few cases, but not across the board. I agree that Droideka tend to be ammo sponges. And yes, the model is a bit out of place, but it's good enough that I'm keeping it. If I decrease enemy health, I will decrease available ammo by about the same amount.

The TIE Fighters do have a problem in many maps because they are too big and fast to move around correctly. On the other hand, they work beautifully where they do have enough room, so I don't want to get rid of them. A compromise would be to write code which detects how much room they have, and replace them with a smaller and slower vehicle if they are cramped.

I can understand "functioinality" and "behavior", but he's also saying a lot of them are under powered. If you make them too powerful, then the balance will get thrown off - and the mod will end up like the original duke3d game where the player is walking around with max health and ammo most of the time.

I only said 2 were underpowered, how does that equate to "most"?

Valherran wrote: 5. The weapons in this MOD feel like they are underperforming,

Valherran wrote:

Weapons:

2. DL-44 Blaster - This thing should be hitting things rather hard.

8. Stouker Concussion Rifle - This weapon is underpowered

Valherran wrote:

10. Wookie Bowcaster - This weapon is underpowered, it needs to be buffed.

11. Assault Cannon - but the explosion radius of the rocket is too small

A general all encompassing comment and four specifics.

I would suspect that if, for example, the concussion rifle were more powerful, you'd probably be complaining that the enemies carrying it are hitting too hard. But that's just speculation on my part.

Also, no need to get defensive because someone has a differing point of view. I'm not attacking you, I'm merely disagreeing with some of your wish list and subjective comments.

To actually contribute to this thread - I did notice that on several occasions a grell would "disappear" into the ceilings of ventilation shafts. Usually because they're too tall to fit in them and they "float" a certain distance off the floor.

Also the droideka are easy to kill, they're very susceptible to splash damage - my prefered method is to throw mines at them like grenades

Edited by: xforgex

A general all encompassing comment and four specifics.

Whether you are attacking me or not, please get your facts right before saying stuff like that. The 2 weapons that I did state were underpowered were because they are underpowered. The other stuff you quoted was me comparing the weapon to it's original functionality.

I would suspect that if, for example, the concussion rifle were more powerful, you'd probably be complaining that the enemies carrying it are hitting too hard. But that's just speculation on my part.

The enemies carrying it are hitting hard as it is because they spawn too damn much in place of pig cops. So if the thing was buffed a bit, and the enemy spawn amount was decreased, zero problems are to be had.

The concussion explosion actually does more damage against enemies than it does against the player. It is still quite dangerous in the hands of enemies, though. I don't really find bossk to be a big problem, as long as I know where they are. If you rush them, they will not use the explosive blast (they won't fire it at close range). They are the most dangerous when the player is forced to be near walls (splash damage).

Remember that all of these concerns about weapon balance and enemy distribution pretty much go away when we have levels that are actually designed for Duke Forces, rather than vanilla maps with different enemies swapped in. Having said that, I'm pretty sure you will regard the next update as an improvement in many respects.

Valherran wrote:

The 2 weapons that I did state were underpowered were because they are underpowered. The other stuff you quoted was me comparing the weapon to it's original functionality.

Then i stand corrected.

When you said, "The weapons in this MOD feel like they are underperforming, this is due to them either being underpowered, or enemies having too much HP, or both" - that could mean anything up to and including underpowered. Also "The weapons" really only means two weapons.

When you said the blaster pistol doesn't hit hard enough - that is open to be interpreted as underpowered.

when you said the explosion radius for the assault cannon is too small - (basically implying it needs to be larger to damage more enemies with less effort) - that is open to be interpreted as underpowered.

Then you also mention that the bow caster and the concussion rifle are underpowered.

But in none of these instances in your original post did you specifying (either individually or as a group) if they were underpowered compared to the original games, or underpowered just because you felt it was underpowered through your game play experience.

Obviously you're using two different definitions and criteria for what you mean by underpowered. Not doing the appropriate amount of damage based on the original game does not mean the same as not doing the appropriate amount of damage based on your expertise of what the weapon should do because you think it should do more.

It's completely transparent now that, "This thing should be hitting things rather hard", (implying that it's not 'hitting' hard enough) does not mean "underpowered"

So my apologies.

Edited by: xforgex