CoD2 German mission select menu image - Back2Fronts Mod for Call of Duty 2

what you believe isn't what is right. the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Right is chosen by the victor, but its been 60 years, the soldiers who died have a right to not be thoght of as villains.

No, it's not chosen by the victor. Nationalism, racism and militarism isn't right by any means, no matter if it's in Nazi Germany or any other country. I don't think racial segregation in USA was right just because they won the war. And I don't think german soldiers were 'villains', but it is a fact they WERE fighting for the wrong side.
Defend german soldiers honour and art of fighting - EVERYTIME.
Defend the ideology they fought for - NEVER.

And the Red Army Solders are Heroes or what.... ?
The Red Army fight for the badest and for the wrongest ideology ever existed. All my Family Members who live in that time fight for Germany! Right is chosen by the victor and this is a fact. All Alled Warcrimes(or the most Allied crimes) are forgotten. And the Axis ? All speak about there because they lost the War.

Greetings from Germany and (again) sorry for my bad English

Did you even read what I wrote?
>Nationalism, racism and militarism isn't right by any means, no matter if it's in Nazi Germany or any other country. I don't think racial segregation in USA was right just because they won the war.
it concerns every country. Noone implies allies were always right.

Well we agree, just in different manners of saying it

DeltaForce95 Shut up ******* idiot!

If you fight for a genocidal, totalitarian, racist, ultra-nationalistic, militaristic, revanchist regime; you're fighting for the wrong side.

Why would it have a german title? Then soviet campaign should have russian tittles too?

I'm just having a looong argument about this with my friend Perun.

So, basically I think that Wehrmacht itself was not bad or nonhuman. What they did falls on heads of those who commanded it. Why didn't they resist? Because a good soldier does not, because nazi propaganda was brilliant. It might even look appealing to torture someone for a while, since in group behavior changes and mental barricades are going down (just look at riots). This is not only Nazi issue, it goes the same with Red Army or Japanese. Propaganda made effective soldiers...

I am not Nazi lover, nor Wehrmacht lover, but I do remember them as an organized and effective army - used to do bad things.

I never saw or heard about any American, British or Russian crime that was even close to what Germans and Japanese did. Not all of them of course. But so far I was not able to find any evidence that British, Americans or Russians were burying their enemies alive
Chinadaily.com.cn
or forcing them to dig their own graves
Russiapedia.rt.com
Posing with corpses
Ww2db.com
1.bp.blogspot.com
Or using starvation of civilians combined with bombing as strategy to conquer city (Leningrad blocade).

And believe me - I tried to find similar things done by allies (I am not one of those who see world black and white). I don't deny that Russians for example did many bad things but no, nothing that was close to this.

Přes 75% německých zajatců se z Ruska vrátilo (číselně jich zemřelo kolem 450 000).. většina Rusů z německého zajetí ne - 3 500 000 tedy přes 60% z celku. Zbytek nepřežil proto, že by byl Němci propuštěn, ale protože byl zachráněn spojeneckými silami.

Jinak počet objetí Sovětského režimu je značně zveličovaný - například počet lidí kteří zemřeli v gulagu. Spousta lidí tvrdí že gulag = koncentrační tábory a že většina lidí je nepřežila, faktem je že 80% lidí co do gulagu vstoupilo také vystoupilo a celkový počet usmrcených lidí je podle Sovětských archivů něco kolem 3 500 000 lidí. (Což je opravdu hodně ale výrazně méně, než kolik mají na svědomí nacisté) - zdroj je zde:
Web.archive.org

Ale to už se dostáváme do politické debaty, která nemá moc co dělat se zločiny vojáků jako takových a v tomto případě jsem přesvědčen, že zločiny Německých vojáků na Rusech výrazně převyšují zločiny Rusů na Němcích.

Ostatně chování Němců a Rusů ke svým zajatcům o tom svědčí:
31.media.tumblr.com

Obrázky z opačné strany vypadají spíše jako pohled na židy v koncentračním táboře.

Jinak během války neměli Rusi dost jídla ani pro sebe, proto se nelze divit, že na zajatce toho tolik nezbylo.. ovšem Němci byli v hrozném stavu už v době kdy do se do Ruského zajetí dostali.

Ruští zajatci však rozhodně neumírali z nedostatku jídla v Německu, problém je že nebyla ochota jim ho poskytnout.

Každopádně jak jsem řekl - mluvím o zločinech způsobených samotnými vojáky bez rozkazu nikoliv jejich vládami.

I am not talking about the fact that they had orders. But these soldiers doesn't seem to have any problem with it.. too often they even enjoy it.

End there is countless number of crimes these soldiers did without any command.

I do not support any of the ideologies above, but saying the allies didn't committed absurd crimes during the war is to deny history, my friend! How about Dresden, the Holodomor (3 to 7 million ukrainians starved to death), the gulags and also NKVD's massacres that happened behind the Iron Curtain during the 30's? As Winston Churchill admitted: "history is written by the winners"...

Nobody is saying Allies never did crimes, but I am just saying Axis did much worse and mainly I am talking about soldiers not about crimes of politicians they were fighting for.
I was talking all the time about crimes of soldiers not their ideologies.
If I was talking about crimes of ally politics it would be clear:
-Famine in Ukraine (Stalin)
-Famine in India (Churchill)
-Nuclear bombs
-Some ally bombing and so on.

But I was not talking about these but about soldiers. Can you find Americans enjoying watching their enemies digging their own grave?

And the allied soldiers who raped, stole food from their own people and destroyed entire cities after the peace treaties?

In allied armies it was illegal at least. And once again I never said allies were never raping and stealing (these things are totally common in ANY army in the world), but once again can you find Americans enjoying watching their enemies digging their own grave or similar thing like that (taking photos of smiling soldiers right next to bodies of dead civilians and so on?).
German and Japanese armies were most brutal ones (Germans were that brutal only on eastern front, on western front they were acting like any other army). Japanese loved execusions of POWs and torturing like burying people alive as I mentioned. And things like this cannot be found in ANY other armies exept these two.
German ideology described Russians as subhumans and soldiers who believed that were acting like that. Same with Japanese.

Once again - every army did crimes, but German and Japanese army were exceptions - Germans showed (on the eastern front) brutality that was never seen in allied armies and Japanese were much more brutal and barbaric then allied armies as well. Just find photos of German brutality on eastern front and Japanese brutality in China and now ask yourself can you imagine Americans/British or Russians instead of them? Try to find photos if you want... you won't find photos where allies are that brutal.. if you can let me know.

It's impossible to prove what the allies have done due the the censorship... but you are generalizing a whole army, i mean, there were good soldiers in the wehrmacht/imperial army, see the Afrika korps for example... Anyways I think we have gone a little too off-topic.

"1. For acts which members of the Wehrmacht or its retinue commit against enemy civilians, there is no compulsion to prosecute, even when the act represents at the same time a military crime or offense."

From nazi documents.
It's logical many soldiers did these crimes if they had no responsibility for it.

poor research, look at these articles and books:
Listverse.com
En.wikipedia.org(book)
En.wikipedia.org
En.wikipedia.org
Dailymail.co.uk
Muse.jhu.edu
Spiegel.de
Theguardian.com

Amazon.com
Amazon.com
Amazon.com

Osobně bych se ani nedivil, kdyby nedostatek obrázků o západních spojeneckých zvěrstvech byl způsobený jinak, než že by je prostě nedělali. Spíš se o tom nikdy nemluvilo (když o tom teď přemýšlím, jakto že nevím snad o jediném případu kdy by Briti nebo Američani udělali něco takového?). Teď po 60 letech, když byla historie psána vítezi, si nemyslím, že by obrázky (či jejich nedostatek) měly být brány za 100% důkaz.

Válka je válka a zúčastněné strany vychovávaly vojáky. Když pominu ideologie, pak ruská armáda je v mých očích něco, co se po težkém začátku dokázalo vzchopit, přečíslit a porazit výborného nepřítele. Německá armáda má vizitku dokonale vycvičených vojáků, které zlomila až zima a hladomor u Stalingradu. Japonci výborně vycvičení, ale až moc zfanatizovaní a špatně vybavení. Výborně bojovali i Briti. Američani bojovali jen v přesile, tam nijak velký respekt nechovám a Itálie, Francie nebo Maďarsko jsou mi k smíchu.

Za 100% důkaz to určitě, ale nehodlám brát jako fakta něco co není podloženo na reálných základech a faktem je, že kdyby měli Rusi Němcům opravdu oplatit všechno co jim Němci způsobili v plné síle...

Jinými slovy, neříkám že mám 100% pravdu.. pokud ale nebudu mít před sebou důkaz, že spojenečtí vojáci dělali podobná svinstva jako Němci a Japonci nebudu předpokládat, že tomu tak bylo.

Jinak Finsko taky zasluhuje respekt.

Bombing

Bombing is common in war... especially industry zones like Dresden. I thought you meant something different.

If it was just a strategical bombing it wouldn't be considered a war-crime... most of the targets (factories) were not hit by the bombings, however the residential and historical centers were completely burned to the ground.

Hill 400 and Crossing Rhine are together on the mission select. View picture details above.

Ohhhh, sorry Mac, didn't see that....

Shut up kid.