Comments - AwesomeStrong

Nice bugfixes, I'll try out mission 11 (which I simply couldn't complete) soon :) thanks for all the work, as it stands this patch likely makes it the most playable and fixed up!

Okay I have been destroyed by 3 AI's on hard on mission 10 :) they just build up everything (it looks like all the tech is unlocked?) and with a bloodthirster to boot :) preds, defilers, lots of troops.

I suspect the game set different restrictions and levels of AI for each enemy - at least different preferences - or if not this was a lot easier the first time round :) (possibly with multiple terminator squads, hah!).

May be worth balancing the AI sides a little (set different preferences, restrict at least Isador's forces from ever attacking), although again could be a fluke, might try again. Due to the beefed up AI in later games for the more skirmish-like campaign map I also don't doubt the AI is "better" (it rushes all at once together).

Mission 11 as always is a little the same - the enemy while I'm dealing with random stuff (and lack of resources/base research) they build up enough to dominate.

There is an intel event from Toth that links to an invalid string, something about the demon part way through.

The Orks rules are broken (I changed the timing to be 100 seconds to test) - I think Rule_GenOrkForce() doesn't properly work in any case as written (it adds units to the squad group from the first creation, which then blocks the rule from doing any more, it finishes and then stops with just grots), and besides, that side of the map has g_Player4's base, which by the point they spawn (600 seconds in) the meagre grots that spawn just sit there and die. Even a larger force would get stuck or die there.

Possibly easier to remove (edit the map using advanced map editor) and bin that extra Chaos base replacing it with an Ork one, or move it, have the Orks start on the map from the beginning and simply have the intel event and objective revealed when they are seen by the player.

To make it a bit more interesting having a new set of markers for defensive Sindri units along with a static Ork AI which just sends attack waves (as per missions before) against both Chaos and Eldar and Space Marine might be good. Even more fun would be to reveal the Chaos defensive line and see the Orks smash into it constantly similar to Winter Assault. Whaagghh! Bit more effort to do and balance though for sure.

The possessed space marines at the start are also buggy - one reason is (For whatever reason) Relic never added the 3rd into the locked squad group on the map (it's the left most squad) so that one runs around a lot, and the top most of the three is never in range of enemies immediately so just stands there until provoked.

Not sure if the horrors work right either, although at least only one set can be on the map at once so it doesn't affect much.

A thought also occurs - I presume usually these missions the AI starts with (in the normal campaign) 0 starting resource - since it's skirmish now the AI gets some to start with, accelerating their growth significantly.

I finally Mission 8 - rushed it and I got through before they built up too fast. I guess the balance on that one is immediately securing your second base not securing all the points on the west. Easier by far then - or perhaps the AI randomly decided to build up properly - they attacked my base and almost wiped me before I got dreads out though. This was even skipping the cutscene too (not sure if resources build up during cutscenes or not though).

I'll go back to 7 at some point.

Mission 9 was fun - easy though - terminators are usually limited to 1 of each, but I had 4 squads of normal, 1 assault and 1 ordeo mallus guys :) bit of a cake walk since the AI never re-captured points I left idle, but did send some guys to stand at them for some reason. Possibly on harder difficulties (or in general)

Oddly it was on hard - SetDifficultyLevel() not working correctly perhaps? I'm not sure what it returns in skirmish games but it seems to give me "easy" resources and potentially I guess easy attacks (Rule_ImplementAggressionLevel1 etc.) - never saw any defilers either - Rule_RelicArtillery() not working?

Possibly meant that the aggression rules also do not run correctly too, and the AI might take control of too many things. This time oddly the AI might have too few resources - no outside points are captured (or ever are even after start of the game) so only 4 relics income + 1 point in the south is a bit lame.

Possible other improvements: make the south base a smaller but more basic 2nd AI which has a limited set of buildings/units to build in smaller numbers but acts as a usual AI and captures things, and if the relics start to be captured is "unlocked" to allow builds of tougher units.

Have a 3rd chaos AI do all the static stuff - Lord Bale, aggressive automatic squads, etc. but doesn't need to capture.

Have the main AI defend the points it has and give it free resources, but don't let it attack until the relics are starting to be captured - or leave it as is but give it more resources or starting points captured (even the entire maps worth) but don't let it re-capture. Not sure it ever got builders either to actually build up its base.

Note: the random AI reinforcements on base defence (and the troops the AI at the base hadn't ever used) were a bit of a pain to attack but they were wholly infantry for some reason.

These are a lot of changes though - fixing the difficulty/defiler/attack rules might make it just work as intended and not be too bad.

Okay mission 7 (I still can't complete 6) is okay - except the commander repeats "The Avatar Is Retreating!" an awful lot. On hard worked fine - a bit of a slog (if you rework the map a bit it might work a lot better) and since it's the final Eldar mission its surprising actually they only use dreadnaughts and their lower infantry mixed in with a seer council. No prism tanks. I liked the base at the end - very tough to crack.

I've explained mission 8 is a slog / near impossible against 2 AI Chaos enemies unless you just run past them to defeat the doors, possibly needs more static unit usage and lower caps on both.

I'll try mission 9 which I recall was a lot more fixed squads (and you get a second base) sometime soon I hope.

Wait replace mission 4 with 5 (first Eldar mission) and 5 with 6 (mission with Orks constantly attacking/IG appearing), keep getting numbers confused :)

Okay Mission 4 was fine except for the opening cutscene - the scouts didn't die (or get attacked) since they are always on invisible - possibly position a detector there to alleviate this. Mission is scripted, no rangers though? (or did I just kill them too quickly - one detector should be enough). Was fine - a bit of a slog as per the original mission especially at the end. I remembered to gear up on dreads before going in at least.

Mission 5 was a wipe again - the AI has so many resources (again on hard) they bring in 3+ dreads, a full complement of everything else (including harlequins which was a ...nice... surprise) as soon as the Imperial Guard arrive. They wipe me and the IG out right away (I barely have got Monastery upgrade so have 0 Anti Tank - they bring Fire Guardians to destroy my single dread and three squads). Fun times.

I'd put up a better fight later on - possibly pop or technology cap the Eldar for a while or do some non-AI led assaults and keep the AI on the defensive. It's possibly made worse by the fact as a player I'm handicapped from the start having to build a base - the sheer amount of time from the opening cutscene to the time I have the base up and Monastry added (for vehicles) means they've had 5-10 minutes of resource time - thousands!

It was fun seeing them also wipe out the Orks though (who are a bit buggy - noted that in the original campaign, if one Ork gets stuck it will never spawn any more) and similar to parts of WA I wish the designers of the original game did a lot more AI-versus-AI fights we could watch.

I'll try the other missions some other time. Sorry this all looks like balance reports but mainly I am saying when I am wiped in the first 5 minutes :) yes I could probably get by if I lowered the difficulty to Easiest :) :)

BTW: Thoroughly enjoying it still even if I am wiped. Nostalgia but also I really enjoyed the base building / unit positioning / weapon upgrading DOW1 had which 2 and now 3 didn't/won't have.

Neat sorry didn't notice that one! Will try it out :)

Hope this is constructive! SM missions tested...on hard for all (so no funky Hardest stuff happening but a decent level of intellgience).

Mission 1: Only one oddity (apart from being reminded about the basics... so much intel!) is that once you fail to rescue one imperial guard squads, the rest...stay invulnerable. Odd since it should only fail if all the things are at least activated once but fail if at least one died (not that failing it affects anything). I don't recall this being the case in the original game. Source of the issue stems from Rule_Objective_S_Guard() which removes the Rule_ConflictCheck() rule being run that removes the invulnerability.

Mission 2 works fine enough, not too hard but it's a basic map. Not sure why you gain control of the IG - should really stay on the IG side so you don't waste resources reinforcing them (or perhaps you can technically save them?). The Nobz "they detect us wait" doesn't show the entire area and the towers see you - but are easily run past (remove the towers?). The Sluggas who spawn guarding the pump station seem to not attack - a cursory glance suggest the "Hold ground" it stopping them doing anything even if they stand on the ramp (their weapons are too short a range to shoot back). Perhaps have a Killa Kan actually attack later might make the mission more interesting once missile launchers are acquired (the Ork AI holds back its forces, maybe I didn't wait long enough, at the last land bridge - nice big fight there!) or the normal Ork AI attack en-masse after a while might be good.

Few more bugs on MS03:
* AI can build killa kans, trakks and looted tanks from the start. A surprising 3-4 minute attack wiped everything I had out - this was because the generic restrictions unlock it for the mission and you never restrict it. I suspect removing the previously used Rule_TrackPlayer2Limits has broken this. This also restricted the amount of the units that were created instead of 4 killa kans wiping me out (which would happen - but might be the intent? :) ).

* Even restricting them by editing the scar file - due to the sheer upgrades + AI building tons of units (the resources it has are phenomenal even without the +10 every so often) it wipes me pretty hard after a few minutes. See the mass with FOW_RevealAll - might be worth putting an AI restriction on base attacks until the machine cult is found...? (so they're more defensive) or until the player moves forwards (ie; wait until an ork building is destroyed which "riles them"). Can add some more manual attack groups to compensate perhaps? Or some heavy bolter turrets on the left?

* Not sure the trukk attacks work - hard to tell (at least nothing was ever unloaded even if I let one through), I think the AI takes over the unit so it interrupts what it is doing (and then just roams with it). Worth turning the AI off for that player? (I love the idea though!).

Mission 4: If the stormtroops at the beginning with the whirlwinds are new, neato, if not they surprised me :)

Issues: The orks are massively overwhelming (trakks, killa kans, even tanks, nobz, lots of sluggas) but don't attack your base but block the way up (the mission might end in like 3 minutes otherwise once the base is built). With so little income this is obviously not the how the original worked - likely a lot less units were produced from the first and second bases at least until the mid way point. It's a massive slog over a long piece of terribly laid out terrain, worth reducing the early game presence hugely - even going so far as to disable the AI (which as noted before seems much more aggressive and competent in DC/SS which is used for all their campaign maps...wonder if it cheats on Hard too - in those cases it is fine to be tougher since it's at a disadvantage but on this mission they have literally every Ork building, technology, upgrade and unit except squiggoth) until you make it near the base.

I think on this mission (and others) at least one of the AI's was set to a much easier difficulty - like Easy or Easiest - lowering their income, AI and some other variables that the AI uses to make it doable (if there are no further restrictions in the original SCAR files this makes the most sense). Similar to how Eldar always used the Easiest AI in the final MS11 (so they didn't complete the map for you!).

Stopped at Mission 4 because I dare not cross the Eldar's path, yet...

General issues: Isador uses his evil skin all the time (might be unfixable?) and his and Toth's Smite animation doesn't show up properly (not sure if the ability does anything). Also there is a random map still available in the skirmish list - I think one included in a not-long-ago-patch, I think 6p_Temple_Cyrene which I am pretty sure I didn't manually install.

Ahh, takes me back - might be just those references I saw :) shame no voice lines mention his fate though :(

Yeah is a little odd how you get them a mission after their betrayal. The plot of DOW1 is a bit all over the place, a little rushed in design, compared to WA and onwards. :)

Spawning instead of fixed ones would help so much (esp. locking down units), with the advanced map editor I've had a look and it looks like it loads them fine for adding more markers, changing/removing units and squad groups.

I wonder if as a step on from this you'd take on converting all the DC and Soulstorm "big missions" (the strongholds mainly) into the new formats. Some were quite inventive in DC (less so in Soulstorm...) including the IG "titan cannon alley", moon base (although not Tau specific usually had them), underground Necron tomes...

Problem with the DC/Soulstorm ones is a bit more effort covering the races - but at least they cater to (most) player choices - and you can default them to something else anyway if it is less effort (eg; make a "DC - Space Marine Stronhold - Imperial Guard Attackers" which force IG). Not sure how you'd deal with all the usual upgrades players would get (the free mission start ones or upgraded commander) but there is an easy way to approximate it - and simply give them more on easier difficulties anyway, heh.

Awesome will look through those ones and play some more :) one other error I noticed was some "string xx missing" on the NIS intel events for Toth around the demon. It seems to happen early enough since, poor idiot she is, the Farseer just goes and tries to solo the demon early on triggring a ton of intel about him. Might need to lock down the Eldar attacking routines for a few minutes at least (or the Farseer in a squad group to stop her wandering too early).

Yeah that SG group is set in the mission editor (one reason I suspect from WA onwards it switches to mostly creating them in the scar file with markers).

I'll see what else I can see. For the AI - there are a few things that could be done, possibly enabling and disabling certain units and setting the population limits, some levels could do with more AI bases, some could do with triggers that auto-create units to attack (which do properly attack and are not under the AI's influence) similar to most WA levels.

The odd thing about how it is currently is that the default AI in original DOW (since WA barely uses the AI, actually not sure it ever does...) is much more static and so now the AI more effectively - as it should - creates a ton of units really quickly (due to the resources given) and then pounds you into submission as soon as the "don't attack" AI event is removed. You see this on most default levels where 2 predators, 3 dreads and a full complements of heavy infantry all sit outside the players base making it a slog to get across the map (Since they constantly re-create it). Mainly tested this on the Chapel level with the assault troop jump acrosses. Man that level was tough.

Other options:
* Limit the AI buildings - newer AI builds a lot more production so gets a massive army that much quicker which I think the original AI does not (or was limited with)
* Add more players with less pop cap or different unit priorities or restrictions (one doing heavy infantry, one doing tanks and melee, etc.) - can even make pop cap go up over the course of the game
* Add in champion units from the expansions on harder difficulties
* Restrict technology and upgrades in easier difficulties (eg; plasma weapons, squad champions).
* Restrict resources in easier difficulties (they build less units at the start - but over time get more due to the captured points they usually have anyway).
* Lock more squads that are placed at the start of the game so they act as defensive units - I think you've standardised and removed some of these making it harder (example; the horrors and melee units on the ms11 final mission no longer are locked I think? so a huge mass of them kill the eldar early on since the AI pulls them back if they get to their markers).

Man if I had more time I'd totally rework some missions to be more inventive too. Have an AI ally work the base while you do side objectives or place a marker for where they should attack (ala eldar mission 5 of WA), or provide defences so you don't have to hassle around a full army on defences and offences (most DOW missions have 2+ enemies which mean they double your squad count at best :( ).

One last missing content thing - although I don't particularly like it myself - was I think the chapel level had Brom actually be drawn to Chaos thus explaining his absence in the final levels. I'm sure there is some voice chat to that effect and his presence is commented out in the code (or was removed entirely). If you re-add him it'd be cool to see some Leman Russ tanks too :) although frankly I'd prefer he still be good :)

Never played the last version on this mission specifically, only did the IG (go humans!) which worked fine.

Error on Lorn Eldar mission 5: ALERT: Duplicate rule Rule_TrackLastMonolith1 added. This is not allowed. Line 1121 (Rule_Necron_MonolithDeadCount). Might be originally a Relic bug or a bug caused by updates to SCAR - but from what I can read when g_m 3 can run multiple times thus Rule_AddInterval is added multiple times. A check for a new variable called something like "g_lastmonolithtrackingrule" and checks against that might fix it.

Easy to do - just destroy 3 (or 4?) monoliths in the final mission.

Also for some reason the Orks don't build so never send anything, not sure why since the Chaos do...may be the AI is bugged (the contructors don't build the HQs - possibly place them as a full unit instead?)

Great stuff, but still some bugs alas! :) I wanted to finish (with the new Orks) mission 11 - problem is I think "sg_gabriel" is never created so I don't think I ever got him down - or I did once but it bugged out. Worth checking? (also man the level is hard! the AI is relentless against the Eldar and then come for me with a full army, fun stuff).

Also any list of other cut additions to other missions? I'll bug hunt some more, brings out my old SCAR coding...I do know the relentless AI is a bit of a pain on some levels, masses an army (but can't attack) making it hard to progress. Wonder if some squad capping might help...

Might also be fun to alter the difficulty to take into account the hardest/easiest settings for the Lorn campaign, that one was always set AI (in all missions I think) so making it a little tougher on Hardest might be neat given HP doesn't increase. Not sure how Difficulty_Get() works with Easiest and Hardest mind you...most of the .scar files reference constants with equal signs. Mmm.

Will poke around a bit more and maybe try a few more missions. Good to say all the Imperial campaign on Lorn worked first try, need to do the Chaos side :)