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Blackstab
Blackstab Sep 26 2011, 12:02pm says:

The writer just forgot two things:

- God gave free will to the people
- Satan tempted Eve to eat the apple, Satan takes minds, Satan corrupts people. There is an ongoing battle between God et suis and Satan et suis. A battle over people.

Also, the statement made in the final paragraph is a false deduction: if you poke your nose, it is (as I believe) not God's explicit will that you do so, it is your own will and He just doesn't stop you. Otherwise 'your will' wouldn't be a free will.

I hope this clarifies the misconception :)

+8 votes     reply to comment
Akalonor
Akalonor Sep 26 2011, 8:46pm replied:

But if man was made in God's image why was Eve corruptible?
And at what point do you intervene when your creations which you love are tearing each other apart, aswell as the earth 'you' gave them and proceed to allow those to kill your messengers in your name?

+3 votes     reply to comment
Blackstab
Blackstab Sep 27 2011, 12:31pm replied:

That's where our own free will plays its part: we are given the possibility to choose for our own. Not rarely we make wrong decisions, following Satan's sly ways...

There are plenty of interventions to be found in the Bible. Two of the greatest being the flood, killing all people but Noah and his family (and their partners), for all others had gone evil, and the crucifixion of Jesus Christ Himself, the ultimate reaching to save all people, a hand to every single person.

As for the messengers: I must honestly say I don't know. I do know that Matthew 5:10 says "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
The Word must be spread, that is not a task free of danger. Though if you are prepared to give your life for the sake of God and for spreading goodness and rescue, you will be blessed forever.

I know this all may sound vague and hippie-like (all is love), but that is the way it is.

+5 votes     reply to comment
Akalonor
Akalonor Sep 27 2011, 7:32pm replied:

But why would an ancient civilization be more sinful than the modern world? Which has an immensely larger population, not to mention more diversification and advancements in science (Abortion, test tube babies etc), aswell as many single moms who gave birth before marriage and all of the unruly teenagers doing drugs and spreading the word of Satan.

P.S. There is a scientific explanation for the Noah incident.
P.P.S. If the story is to be believed, how is fitting the entire worlds land species on a boat a good idea in any such way? Heredity has proven that 2 of one species can not give balance to future generations. This also goes for Adam and Eve. There is a reason you are not allowed to marry your sister.

+3 votes     reply to comment
Blackstab
Blackstab Sep 28 2011, 3:02pm replied:

The modern world is not less sinful than the ancient world at all - God just does things on His own time. Remember that just before the flood ALL people but Noah & family had become evil. Today there are still millions of Christians all over the world. Probably it is not time to intervene just yet.

May Genesis 18 clarify and show God's great love for mankind. God told Abraham about his plan to destroy the sinful cities of Sodom and Gomorrah if necessary. Abraham asked several times if the cities would still be destroyed if even a small number of righteous people was to be found there.
Genesis 18:32 "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten [righteous people] can be found there [Sodom and Gomorrah]?" He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."

Only ten righteous people being present makes God forgive the sins of thousands of bad people. His love is infinite. As Deuteronomy 5:9-10 says: "(...) I punish children for their parents’ sins to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me. But I show mercy to thousands of generations of those who love me and obey my commandments."

P.S. There also is for rainbows, yet God showed the rainbow to Noah as a sign of peace and as a promise the earth would never be flooded this bad again. God created the world, so why should the things He does be beyond this world's logics? Why couldn't He use the systems He created Himself? Besides that, how is it explainable that Noah and his sons built a giant wooden boat in time to survive the flood? Building such a boat took at least multiple years, maybe even decades. Even such a flood can't be foreseen from such a long time by humans alone.

P.P.S. God created all life. So wouldn't he be able to prevent genetic weaknesses if necessary (like in Noah's case)? I also think Adam and Eve were created with pure, clean genes, so no genetic diseases could have developed before there was enough diversity in all man's genes to counter that.

0 votes     reply to comment
SоrataZ
SоrataZ Sep 26 2011, 4:55pm buried:

(buried)

God didn't give free will to the people. No one has free will, wether because our minds are playthings of our bodies, we are living in a dictatorship or state with corrupt media or are single inviduums in a collective of billions. Besides, how do you know for certain your all-powerful God doesn't make you THINK you have free will when you actually don't? I mean, he is all powerful; it wouldn't be impossible for him/her, would it?

And how do you know the bible is the true script about the battle? God made the world and Satan tries to destroy it. That's, when we come down to it, is what the bible says. It's kind of a one-sided deal to me, how do we know it's the truth? It could be faked to make God stand in a better light than the truth is. Also, if God cannot destroy Satan forever, doesn't that mean that Satan is just as powerful as God?

-5 votes     reply to comment
Yuribeard7
Yuribeard7 Sep 27 2011, 11:54am replied:

God can and will destroy Satan forever. Read the book of Revelation. Satan will be cast into the "abyss" which represents non-existence. Therefore he will be obliterated. In the mean time God gives everyone the time and opportunity to repent for their sins and be saved from the lake of fire and/or the abyss. Satan has no power of his own except for what God allows him to do and what you invite him to do in your own life.

+5 votes     reply to comment
SоrataZ
SоrataZ Sep 27 2011, 2:19pm buried:

(buried)

"Satan has no power of his own except for what God allows him [...]"

Ahem. If I was you I would rethink about praying to a deity that allows his/her enemy ANY power.

-5 votes     reply to comment
Blackstab
Blackstab Sep 27 2011, 3:04pm replied:

As the Bible says: God works in mysterious ways
Humans barely know anything about what's going on in the heavens and what the relations between, thoughts of and motivations of its 'residents' are. Even not Christians. But we know He created us, He loves us and He fights for us.

"Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith,
because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings." (1 Peter 5 : 8-9)

It is more the case, like yuribeat5 says, that the devil has power because humans let him take their minds. Yes, there is a war. Yes, God is more powerful than his enemies. No, that is not a reason to go standing in the firing line, without armour or weapons, and not a reason at all to blame God if people get hit (get corrupted and evil). He didn't fire the bullets you got hit by, the devil did, and you choose (with your free will) to go stand right where they would impact.

May God protect and show the right way to all people.

Moddb.com

+7 votes     reply to comment
Akalonor
Akalonor Sep 27 2011, 7:47pm replied:

"God works in mysterious ways." isn't that another way of saying "We got nothing." I refer you to the Epicurus quote:
"Is god is willing to prevent evil, but unable?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent
Is he neither willing nor able?
Then why call him god? "

There is no reason for god to allow the devil to continue on then if god is superior. If you say he is trying to teach us a lesson his tactics have been failing for over 2000 years now and needs to rethink his management.
And if the devil is the one pulling the trigger, then he is actually saving more lives than god is. Also in that sense, the devil killed Hitler. (Jealousy maybe?) (jk to last sentence.)

(1 Peter 5: 8-9) This can be interpreted as "All other religions are bad, the devil made the others." That seems to be the general mentality atleast.

+3 votes     reply to comment
Cervi_Messias
Cervi_Messias Sep 27 2011, 10:04pm replied:

I tend to look at the this from a deist perspective,is nothing more than conflicting pionts of view. Some see the religious as evil others see the non religious as evil, some see communists as evil while others still see capitalism as the problem. Even your example of Adolf Hitler is not correct,we as a society see him as one of the most evil bastards that ever lived, but those that followed him saw him as the savior of the ayran race.one mans butcher is another mans hero, its all just piont of view. so to say that a God or Gods doesnt do anything about evil is a moot piont because how do you know what evil is? or even if it really exists at all?I personally think the idea of evil is soley human in origin and is based on human culture and societal values.
If there is a god (and I believe there is) I see it as being like a storm neither good nor evil just there raw power that doesn't heed the will or cling to the petty dreams of men. If a supreme being did create the universe it would be far behond are comprehention and understanding and its mind would be infanate and nothing like the petty simple human mind. So to try and claim good or evil or even understanding would be rather pathetic and impossible.
think of it as a bactierium trying to understand and grasp the milkyway galaxy. compared to the mind of a being capable of all that we would literally be mere bacterium in comparison. I am more of a deist I guess because of this but this is how it seems to me. I think most of the religion was added on by man because they couldn't grasp or understand.

+6 votes     reply to comment
Akalonor
Akalonor Sep 27 2011, 11:42pm replied:

Like Schrodinger's cat, there is no base for definition so both is true and false. Interesting.
And I see your point of Religion being added on by man, there may be a factual base, but the contortion and embellishment would have torn away any existing fact.

+3 votes     reply to comment
Blackstab
Blackstab Sep 28 2011, 3:21pm replied:

Let me refer you to my reaction to the first comment you made on this page, because the discussions are pretty much in the same direction now.

Saying God works in mysterious ways is indeed a way of saying 'I don't know', because we all just don't know. Keep in mind that the lack of full knowledge of something (or someone) does not mean that something or someone does not exist.
As Deer-Hunter says: human minds are limited too. Thinking that we can understand everything going on is the pinnacle of arrogance.

I can't see how the devil saves more lives by killing people forever than God does by ... well... saving them. Please explain (also the Hitler-statement)

+5 votes     reply to comment
Akalonor
Akalonor Sep 28 2011, 5:30pm replied:

Take a genocidal maniac like Hitler, he will kill more, making his death saving others. It's sacrifice, take one to save many. and as other have said it is the devil that pulls the trigger and causes one to kill a person, without specification that can be made into a Priest arming himself to defend his home, a soldier killing an evil being, a hunter providing for his family. It's a bad excuse is my point.

+3 votes     reply to comment
Blackstab
Blackstab Sep 29 2011, 1:32pm replied:

The fire-fight between God and the devil was a metaphor (I admit my comment can be rather chaotic xD)
I'm not talking about really killing as in taking away one's earthly life, but as in corrupting, making one go evil, taking away one's eternal life.
If one opens his mind for Satan, he will enter and corrupt that mind. That's 'the downside' of a free will: it can go the wrong direction.

About 1 Peter 5:8-9: It is more about the devil prowling around like a roaring lion, which we must beware of and resist. The part about all of the Christians undergoing the same suffering I have put in because I didn't want to cut in the middle of the verse.

Please explain how 1 Peter 5:8(-9) can be seen as a statement saying all other religions are bad (which by the way is the case: “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments." These are the opening line and the first two of the Ten Commandments), because it is a warning.

(oops, long bracketed text xD)

something else: for those who did, please don't karma me - karma God.

+4 votes     reply to comment
Akalonor
Akalonor Sep 29 2011, 7:44pm replied:

It isn't the devil whispering to them, its desperation, you could lose your family, home, and life entirely due to misfortune, but it isn't the devil that is causing you to become sad and angry, its the realization the world sucks at times, and the need for security and happiness.

The downside of free will.
The DOWNSIDE of free will.
What? No, don't answer that.

I'm not going to go on because I know it will end badly and likely insult many people, I hope comrade winston doesn't see that.

"Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil(temptation) prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour(recruit for cause). Resist him, standing firm in the faith(ignore them, always believe in God),
because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings.(Believers are also tempted to join other causes, don't betray them)"

() is how it could be read, hard to explain over textual communication, adn could go on with more detail, sake of time mixed with lazyness, irritability, and weariness I won't.

+1 vote     reply to comment
Blackstab
Blackstab Oct 1 2011, 5:26pm replied:

The devil might not make you sad and angry directly - but who is it that took away your family, your home?
I suppose you read the Book of Job (summary to be found here En.wikipedia.org)

About 1 Peter: I think I get what you want to say, and you are right. Satan devours people, takes away their lives, corrupts them, 'recruits' them. And when the earthly life is over they will be thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulphur. He devours them.
We as humans must resist him and stand firm. We can do so, because we know (1) our brothers and sisters undergo the same sufferings, we are all together; (2) God is with us, and with God we can 'jump over a wall' (Dutch translation of Psalm 18:30) (and that wall is more than 3 ft high)

As for the free will: (I'm very sorry if I hurt anyone by making this example, but it fits most) if you daughter would commit suicide, wouldn't you wish for a moment you could disable her free will?
I bet you would. That's when you see the downside.
Again, sorry for this strong sketch.

God bless.

+3 votes     reply to comment
Cervi_Messias
Cervi_Messias Sep 29 2011, 5:09pm replied:

No fighting, I am going to delete this conversation if you don't stop!
SorataZ quit calling yuri crazy. and yuri please be nice, I know you have trouble with it but I know you can you don't have to take every thing personally. yuri you should not have brung up the thing about your mother, it makes things to personal and then people start insulting each other and then people get offended.
if you want to keep talking go ahead but I will not tolerate insulting.
we want constructive debate here and i would appreciate it if it stayed to that.

+2 votes     reply to comment
Yuribeard7
Yuribeard7 Sep 29 2011, 6:02pm replied:

I brought up what I did because that what witnesses do. We give account of how and why we believe what we do and I was providing the evidence that God in fact exists. Oh well, pretty much everyone saw it anyhow by now and I'm glad that little but is over. I know I resorted to sarcasm to deflect the insults but it was getting to the point where I was ready to go off.

0 votes     reply to comment
Garyn Dakari
Garyn Dakari Sep 29 2011, 4:59pm says:

Like what Blackstab and the Deer_Hunter said, God works in mysterious ways, and we cannot understand the way he thinks.

As an example(A weird sounding one, but it makes sense), do the way dogs or cats minds work always make sense to us? Or insects, or just about any other non-human living thing? I'm not trying to compare God to an animal, I'm just saying that he is not human, and we don't understand how his mind works.

(Again, I'm not comparing him to an animal, I'm just saying that humans have a way of thinking, animals have a different way of thinking, and God has his own way as well)

+3 votes     reply to comment
Cervi_Messias
Cervi_Messias Sep 29 2011, 5:21pm says:

...and now it gone! I love being an admin. Thank you GarynDakari,lets try to keep this dissussion on track shall we?

+2 votes     reply to comment
Yuribeard7
Yuribeard7 Sep 29 2011, 6:28pm says:

On the subject of why God created everything knowing full well what would happen... Think of everything as a means to an end and we have to live with OUR mistakes that WE (not God) made. Despite that, He is willing to forgive us and offer salvation. Now, the reason he made us was to bring glory to Himself and He desires OUR fellowship with Him. He wanted to create us for the same reason He created angels and everything He created in Heaven before us. He didn't want to be alone and wanted something to share His lovingkindness with. In the end all evil will be destroyed and we will finally have that fellowship for all eternity. Even though He knew we would disobey Him He made us and gave us free will because He wanted to and believed that we should have the chance to live and make our choices no matter what they are. He wants us to come back to Him and it is the job of us believers to bring as many people back as we can. The suffering and damnation experienced every day is OUR own fault and the result of OUR bad choices and we have to deal with the consequences in life and in death. If you accept His offer, well then thats great. If not, then you have to live with the consequences of your actions and there is a price to be paid. We are merely messengers. Its up to YOU.

+1 vote     reply to comment
Akalonor
Akalonor Oct 1 2011, 1:13pm says:

I love how most atheists comments have 0 karma, while most pro-god comments have +3-. So begins the karma war. ;)

+1 vote     reply to comment
Garyn Dakari
Garyn Dakari Oct 2 2011, 5:02am replied:

Actually, I've noticed that - before today - The Christians were getting down voted and the atheists were getting up-voted. It seems to have swung the other way now...

If it makes you feel any better, I haven't given any negative karma to anyone on *this* page. I have given a couple of pluses to people who have said their argument well though ;)

I reserve negative karma for people who are disrespectful or insulting(Which there hasn't been any on this page), not for people with different opinions or beliefs.

+5 votes     reply to comment
Akalonor
Akalonor Oct 3 2011, 10:01am replied:

It has been swinging back and forth,odd, when I posted that it was true and now it is balanced out.

+1 vote     reply to comment
Ambient_Malice
Ambient_Malice Nov 25 2011, 7:13pm says:

The real reason for the flood was to exterminate the Nephilim. Their existence was a direct threat to God's plans to save mankind through Jesus.

Secondly, even if modern civilization was more evil, God promised not to flood the earth again. (He didn't rule out earthquake, famines, and plagues, though...)

+1 vote     reply to comment
KnightofEquulei
KnightofEquulei Dec 12 2011, 10:55am says:

Simple answer? Destiny. Fate and free-will. Can God see into the future? Yes but we have different destinies and God sees them but he leaves it to us to make the choice of which one to take. We are responsible for our own suffering and fortune.

Either way, this argument doesn't disprove the LORD in any way. Adam and Eve had multiple destinies and fate. They took the wrong one. God simply sits and watches as events unfold and sometimes when things get dire...he may guide.

Birds leave the nests. The mother raises them and lets them go. Likewise, God is our father and he has raised us but now he has let us go. He wouldn't be a very good father if he held our hand. We must learn from our own mistakes.

+1 vote     reply to comment
KnightofEquulei
KnightofEquulei Dec 14 2011, 7:45am replied:

Further more, just because God can see into the future, doesn't mean he chooses too.

+1 vote     reply to comment
pjdman44
pjdman44 Apr 1 2012, 10:44pm says:

You got it all wrong dude this is a fact but the conclusions are wrong God gave us free will and we can do whatever we want God doens't know what exactly is going to happen but He do know what will be the consequences of our actions We have free will!!

+1 vote     reply to comment
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