The Debating Society
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A place where ModDB members can debate civilly, and learn from each other's views.
I've seen some here arguing that communism is a good form of government just because the premise is decent (the idea of everyone being equal in class and money would be a dream come true). This is a logical fallacy considering what the rest of communism is about. For Marx (the father of communism) there needed to be three phases that needed to be completed for communism to arise:
Phase 1: A revolution must take place in order to overthrow the existing government.
My response: No problem here. Bad systems are replaced all the time and if communism really is to make everyone equal then overthrowing the current government would not be a bad idea.
Phase 2: A dictator or elite leader must gain absolute control over the proletariat. During this phase, the new government exerts absolute control over the common citizen's personal choices -- including his or her education, religion, employment and even marriage. Collectivization of property and wealth must also take place.
My response: This is where we reach the flaw in communism. The premise was fine but the actual system isn't. The system would have us abandon freedom (I'd argue we're not truly free currently but we have a higher level of freedom that the restrictions communism would impose upon us). Communism would have one leader ruling over us deciding what would best suit us, controlling us and what we do.
Censorship is still with communists today. Speak against their ideology which is part of their communism and they scream bloody murder and try to censor you.
In a communist society you will not be able to question anything the government declares to be truth.
Phase 3: All non-communists to be destroyed in order for the Communist Party to achieve supreme equality. The government would control all means of production.
My response: This has never been achieved so I have no real response to add. I've already spoken about about the dictatorship.
Communism has a few good ideas but the bulk of it is horrible.
The reason why Capitalism is still strong is because it's still better than communism and that's saying something.
I'm not denying that people died under Communism, I'm just saying that more have been murdered under Capitalist regimes.
Yet you provide nothing to debunk what I said.
And Commander, communism has directly killed in its own name.
People killed by Capitalist Regimes
United States:
US intervention in Latin America: 6.3 million dead
Invasion of Philippines: 650,000 dead + 1898 war 3 million dead
Afghanistan: 1.2 million dead
Vietnam War: 10 million dead
Korean War: 10 million dead
Yugoslavia: 300,000 dead
Iran-Iraq War (US funding both sides): 1 million dead
US intervention in Congo: 5 million dead
US Civil War (financial vs land capitalists) 650,000 dead
Native American genocide: 95 million dead
African slave trade: 150 million dead
Indonesian purges against communists: 1 million dead (underestimate)
US Bombing of Laos and Cambodia: at least 1 million dead
US backed Batista, Pinochet, Metaxas, Saddam, Suharto, and various dictators supported by the United States: at least a few million
Britain:
Bengal Famine: 10 million dead
British Occupation of India: 20 million dead
Famine in Held British India: 30 million
Irish potato famine (British farmers could have helped): 1.5 million
Japanese imperialism in China and Asia: 12 million
South African apartheid: 3.5 million
Spanish Civil War: 350,000
French colonies: 1 million dead
From your propaganda communist site.
Source:
Sciforums.com
A forum. A sci-fi forum no less.
Try again. This time with real sources.
Oh look. Another communist source.
Meanwhile the sources I provided were all more reliable (with the exception of Wikipedia but it's still way more reliable than some random forum post).
Then go look up all the wars and genocides I stated on Wikipedia.
Most genocides were caused by communism and the biggest war (WW2) was also by communism. I'm not arguing for Capitalism. I hate it too. I hate all politics but communism is the worst.
wait, Back it up... Communism caused WWII? Are you drunk? Explain that...
What were the Nazis Evanp?
You are aware the Nazi party is inspired by socialism too?
It called itself National Socialism. Just like communism, it came from socialism and shared similar ideals to communism and Hitler even took communist "coverts" to his party.
Economist.com
Alaindebenoist.com
Wnd.com
Either way it wasn't capitalism that caused the world wars.
Mises.org
You seem to keep claiming that communism is innocent but it's not.
Firstthings.com
And all of that site has sources.
Nytimes.com
The number of deaths estimated to have been caused by communism range from 75 million to 100 million which is way more than what capitalism has really done.
Even if I'm wrong and capitalism has caused all those deaths directly, then as CommanderDef put it: capitalism has been around longer. Communism has been around for a short while and already it's killed more in a shorter time span. That's all the evidence I need to call it crap.
Knight, I see you have it mixed up... If even Wiki is communist propaganda... And Hitler gave people work, yes, but that's all what those two had in common.
See my three first links in the above post. They are quite similar. Both are socialism and both want totalitarian states.
Maybe I misspoke then but it's still not capitalism that caused the world wars or the most genocides.
Standupforamerica.files.wordpress.com
Yeah, I'm going to trust information on Communism from a webiste call Stand up of America
No but you are going to ignore all the non-biased sources I provided. That last link was simply an image about socialism.
But you're ignoring The Economist, New York Times and WND links I posted which have way more reliability than some random YouTuber with a communist avatar (thereby clearly being a communist himself).
Judging by how you didn't respond to the prior comment, I guess we can say we're in agreement?
They're pretty much all American sources
And that invalidates them? Would it matter if I provided UK sources too? Either way they are from sites which aren't promoting a bias and they're stating the facts.
Any system is only as good as their leadership plus the ethics of their population. Terrible things have being commited under the name of [insert all kinds of things].
Since it is unethical (and potentially flame-baiting) to simply go back & forth with which country did this & that. So this is my 2 cents.
Oppression exists in all systems, just that some forms of it are more subtle than others... The intellectual tyranny of the majority is just as oppressive as the blatant oppression of a totalitarian state. The difference is that under intellectual tyranny of the majority the discontent is less visible.
Communism is a good system in a perfect world but people are greedy so it will never work.
Pretty much word for word what my history class decided on today.
Pretty much word for word what everyone decides on.
I think you've got it backwards, violent revolution can be good, yes, but it leads to a period of instability- a period in which things can take a horrible turn for the worst. With the US, we were lucky having a 1787 constitutional convention- had we not reformed our post-revolution government, we could have devolved into a bunch of warring states, tribes, and the American states could have been taken back by the british.
Most revolutions end only in death- unless you live under a state that shows doctrine of violating it's citizen's natural rights, reform is the best- in theory a democratic government could become communist or fascist and still live on in a relatively safe stasis if done so through a series of reforms in government- still, neither of these ideologies are very good imo. A federal/state democracy is the best system, but it can be misused as can be seen in the case of the US- A better example of such a government would be Germany. It's the most neutral form of government in practice
Freedom is too overestimated. It makes our civilization weak. And about censorship - leaders were afraid that time. Todays "democratic" leaders are not. You can say what you want, nobody cares. If you say something against politician, he would laugh to your face. Is this that kind of freedom everyone wants?
Better to be able to say something if it's worth saying.
Weak, maybe, but philosophy and culture thrive in freedom.
You won't have cynics thinking outside the box when you don't have any asshats to criticize.
Current status is that we are overpopulated civilization on planet with half destroyed environment and exhausted resources. That's why I vote for work now to sort it out and free thinking just in time we have space for it.
History is written by the victor(s). In this case, the Soviet Union lost. Of course you're going to find more sources against them.