Why Christainity? Thread - The Debating Society

Hello this is your friendly moderator Deer_hunter.
Awhile back another moderator created a forum called The Atheist theory because he wanted to know why we are atheists.
It came to a brick wall because the very definition of atheism is lack of belief in gods becuase of lack of evidence. No one their could provide evidence to why atheits sould believe.

It dawned on me that I have never hear a christain give me a the reasons they believe, not even once- and because i believe in fairness i decided to create this forum for them to explain there beliefs. There are so many believers there must be some evidence, so please share it so we atheists can see it to.

Rules
No trolling- be nice be respectfull (this goes to both atheists and theists)
This is about christainity not atheism ( I have noiticed christains often attack atheists) and any arguements involving this tactic will be deleted as spam.

the bible cannot be your only source, if you want to state a point using the bible you must use another non-religious source to back it up. actually for fairness sake it would be best if you don't use any religious texts at all (mostly because they but defult cannot be verifited and cannot count as a reliable source)

You can't prove me wrong arguement and any arguement that involves special pleading are not allowed
nor is anything experienced based (you can't say jesus talks to you, sorry)

To atheists this is a debate forum, which means you can debate their evidence, but please be nice no insults or personal attacks (same goes for theists)

Okay well... I don't really know where to start with this.

I mean for Christ sake dude. You're asking us to answer why we are Christians (so theists) from a non-theist perspective. That's really not possible.

You ask for Christians to say why they believe and you assume we believe because there is some evidence that to what we believe. Let me assure you, believing in God has nothing to do with evidence. Not for me at least. I know that the average atheist thinks a very different way from myself and most of my fellow Christians. They think very logically. Scientifically. This is a good thing too. It gives them reason and structure. Well, Christianity is different. When we say it is about faith that's not to be taken figuratively. Any Christian with the balls to admit it will admit that there is little or no real tangible evidence to support the existence of God, or an afterlife. That's kind of the point though.

(I know you said not to use the Bible as evidence but as I said I am not offering evidence to support theism I am telling you why I believe in God) In the Bible you can see a similar pattern with many of the Pagan religions of the time. They sculpted idols of their Gods and laughed at the Jews and later the Christians who worshiped a God they could not see. Faith is the key component of Christianity. It always has been. Jesus even said to his disciples (and I am paraphrasing here) Blessed are those who haven't seen me, and believe anyway.

Now more specifically... to answer how I came to believe in Christianity. I'll be honest, my parents are Christian and raised me to be. My father is a Jehovah's Witness. My mother does not officially belong to any Church but is fairly close to Southern Baptism. Now, this caused a rift that still exists between them today. My father is as most (if not all) Jehovah's Witnesses I've met. He's tolerant of other people's beliefs and generally tries to avoid conflict. My mother is argumentative and is the type of Christian that believes that everyone (excluding Christians who are in her particular sect) is going to burn in Hell for all eternity. To make a long story short... their constant conflict caused me to realize the dangers of organized religion and I gradually evolved (no pun intended) into the non-denominational, tolerant and kind hearted man that you see here.

I believe in God for another reason too. Something very hard to articulate into words.

If God doesn't exist... if there is no life after death... if one day we simply pass away into nothingness. Any life, any accomplishments mankind makes... would be merely temporary. Meaningless. I won't believe that. Perhaps you think it is a fear of death? Hmm... perhaps. But that's not it either... somehow, I feel as if I know that God exists. Almost as if I can feel His presence in the world around me. I simply know.

And that's what we call faith... and the Atheist calls "blind faith."

In conclusion, I will make the observation that I think that unless the average Atheist has something occur in their life... something real... not just idle chatter on a website... something that can make them stop and see things differently, he or she will never truly comprehend what I have written here. Ha, perhaps I truly am mad and no one will eh? Hehe, it is late at night when I write this.

To Deer_Hunter or whatever he calls himself now... I know I got off-track from your rules a bit. But in my defense they prevented me from giving a full and complete answer to your question. So delete this if you wish... but I hope this helps you come to a greater understanding about me, perhaps other men of Faith, and your fellow man in general.

Peace be with you...

Edited by: MattmanDude

Thank you Matt, And i just thought i should clarify- I didn't mean you cannot use the bible at all I just didnt want the response THE BIBLE IS RIGHT AND I KNOW IS CUZ IT SAYS SO!!! (not that you would use this arguement but some people do and it is very annoying and rather dishonest)

And I can respect that you can admit you are taking the bible on faith, most people wont and it takes a great amount of honesty to yourself and others to admit it is faith.

and if you need to bend the rules alittle bit I can be fexible on them , I don't have any Thou shalt nots here lol

I can understand your reasoning (kinda) being that I was once a theist myself

but I would like to ask you the other part of the question, how can you be sure that your faith is correct? I mean what if the mormons are correct? or the muslims? or heaven forbid the Scientologists? How can you (or anyone) be sure they have chosen correct? This is incredibly important to atheists
(Again a reminder the bible is allowed as long as its not in a circular arguement)

With the various Christian Faiths... how do I know my particular branch is correct? I don't. There is no way for any Christian to know for certain which sect of Christianity is the most accurate. However, while many of the various sects believe that all other members of other sects will go to Hell for not believing as they do... I believe it is more about the individual than the specific beliefs. If you are a good person and if you accept Jesus Christ as your savior I don't think that God is going to hold a few varying beliefs against you. So I think the Catholics, and the Mormons, and the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc will all have the chance to be saved. (It's also noteworthy that the Bible seems to indicate that some people will be preached to even after death and given the opportunity to come to Christ.

In answer to the other half of your question... how do I know that my religion is correct vs. Atheist or other religious beliefs. I actually answered this question in an audio recording I made and uploaded to Christians of Moddb... but I shall answer again. I have Faith in God and I believe that Christianity is correct, however, I do accept the possibility that everything I believe "could" be wrong. I don't actually believe that it is... but I accept that it is within the realm of possibility. It's like... Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

That's the best way I can think to answer. I hope that helps. :-)

I believe in God because of the events in my life. for example I can ask for healing and I get healed, or if I'm stuck on a test question I ask for help and I am able to answer the question better than I would have been able to without asking for help. Overall, even if its just a placebo effect, its worth being a christian. Atheist's don't exactly have that sort of advantage:D Additionally all the facts that I seen so far point toward an intelligent designer and more specifically it fits the biblical account of history.

ElfFriend wrote: Additionally all the facts that I seen so far point toward an intelligent designer

Would you mind telling us what facts are these ?

Edited by: Cyborg_Putin

Yes agree with bot, if you claim all the facts point to your religion- you have to show those fact and then show how they prove your faith.

If you cannot show that then you cannot claim it.

@Cervi

Well technically he can claim/believe whatever he wants, and you can choose to agree with him or not lol.

Well yes technically he can, but if he wants people to take him seriously he needs to back up such a claim

@Cervi

You mean if he wants Atheists to take him seriously, lol. I thought we had that discussion already? :-P

Besides he most likely just means that personal life experiences and the majesty and complexity of the universe makes him believe in a higher power (y'know intelligent design). Just a supposition though.

MattmanDude wrote: In conclusion, I will make the observation that I think that unless the average Atheist has something occur in their life... something real... not just idle chatter on a website... something that can make them stop and see things differently, he or she will never truly comprehend what I have written here.

I've experienced something similar, but in the opposite direction. Almost a year ago now, I had a massive change in perspective as I came to truly realize (I knew of it, but never fully considered or fundamentally understood it) the sheer incomprehensible majesty and size of the universe, the infinite, mindbending beauty of such a place. The idea that a set of particles and a set of natural laws were able to create the universe as we know it, with planets, nebulae, black holes, suns, dark matter, and matter posessing consciousness such as ourselves, without design or intent, struck me as infinitely more fascinating, fulfilling, and wonderful than anything I believed in as a theist. I find it equally difficult as you to describe why the idea of law-abiding universe, without favoritism or intent, where our destiny is what we choose for ourselves, is so appealing to me. It's not because I'm some sort of OCD control-freak who demands that everything must make logical sense; that, within itself, is illogical and foolish. One way or the other, such a realization permenantly changed my life and how I look at all things, vastly for the better. Others seem to have undergone something similar. Perhaps both 'scientific epiphany' and religious revelation are fueled by a human desire to find something grander than their own existence, and it comes in different forms?

Someone wrote: Perhaps both 'scientific epiphany' and religious revelation are fueled by a human desire to find something grander than their own existence, and it comes in different forms?

That's quite profound mate. You could be onto something. :-)

I know It's a bit late to post but I would like to post why I believe in Christianity
I was almost likely a atheist when I was watching a movie (I can't really remember what was that movie) when watching that movie my mind have so many questions do God really exist? if it really exist why is the world like this? etc. during our CLF class my teacher use to lecture us..one of my classmate asked my teacher..
If God really exist why did God made this world like this why can't he just made this world a better place with many good people? my teacher answered It's not God who made the world like this it is us who made this world like this.. God give us free will we are not robots that need to be controlled... God give us the freedom to chose between evil or good.. God knows that good always wins...as Mattman said blessed be those who believed me but haven't seen me..Before that lecture I asked God if you really exist give me the reason why is the world like this chaos everywhere....then God give me the answer using his creation..
Sorry for my bad English...

Well you arent late, this forum is open for posting as long as neccessary

are you trying to say you believe god exists- then you ask why god would make a terrible world (not my opinion by the way- this is what i am gathering from you, i think this is a great world)
then you say that your belief in god explains this so it reinforces your already existing belief?

This seems to be the primary problem when the religious try to explain why they believe to atheists
atheists look at things from nothing and then try and understand by looking at how a system works, we dont make assumtions we wait till we have all the necessary information, or atleast as much as can be aqquired- believing an idea on faith and using faith to reforce it (which is what i think you are saying) is an alien idea to us.

again thak you for your post,

He just said that he was nearly an atheist (I guess agnostic at the time) because he had the same doubts as you and when he had his religious teacher say that the world is the way it is because of free-will (which God has given us) it made him believe because he had previously asked God to answer his question "why is the world so terrible" which was answered through the teacher.

Cervi_Venator wrote:
are you trying to say you believe god exists- then you ask why god would make a terrible world (not my opinion by the way- this is what i am gathering from you, i think this is a great world)
then you say that your belief in god explains this so it reinforces your already existing belief?

H@X0r wrote:
"Before that lecture I asked God if you really exist give me the reason why is the world like this chaos everywhere....then God give me the answer using his creation.."

So I think it's a "no" to that question.

I am sure he has other reasons too but one of the problems atheists always highlight is "the problem of evil" argument which is addressed within Genesis. I have heard many atheists say that they don't believe in God because of the bad things that happen in this world. I guess this was the case with H@X0r before he learnt of what The Bible has to say about the origin of evil and free will.

In summary this brings me back to this: God doesn't have to be a loving father. All God has to be is a creator. I think many atheists think that God has to help everyone with every little problem. Being a Christian when something bad happens, you always find people asking you "why has God allowed this?" and I always give the same answer that things occur because of free-will. God determines nothing and simply watches. He owes nobody nothing.

Edited by: KnightofEquulei

@ Wolf
Free will can only work without influence from a world outside of our own mind. But look around you. We are constantly influence from the point of birth, from within our brain to the magnificence of the cosmos. From terror of something that imprisons us to the purest of all freedoms. Everything is manipulating us and cutting our "free will" to a point where it does not exist. We can make decisions, we can think and progress, but after all it is not because of free will., rather then an evolutionary subroutine that allows us to progress and grow. Think about it.

The world is not evil because of "free will", thats where the teacher was absolutly wrong. It is because we are stucking in a cycle or spiral of ancient behaviors and dont break free into freedom. Meaning we are trapped in feelings like hate, greed, arrogance and fear.

What you brought up that atheists say is just one common point. The other is, that religious people say that God is good, which contradicts the current situation or let it look like God does not exist in the first place, if he is not evil itself. The other thing is that there is nothing that proves the existence of God and can be explained by logic. ALL the evidence for god is leading to the conclusion that we humans created Gods for whatever reason.

H@X0r had doubts. Doubts are good, it allows you to question things even beyond your feelings. I wish more people would have doubts, especially those who dont dare to question their faith. And besides, God did not answer his pray, the teacher did - and it is garbage to think that he used his creation for it because anyone could give you the same answer, atheists and theists alike. Thats another point why atheists dont believe, because it is always a human that answers gods will, it never was himself coming to us in person.

You're implying that we are forced to do things we don't like and think things we don't want to think. Just because parents may influence us along with the cosmos and whatever else doesn't mean we don't have free-will. These things just influence the way we think and the way we perceive things. Nothing more. If you decide to go and murder some poor bastard just for the fun of it then that's because you chose to do that. That is what free-will is. Simply the ability to make choices by yourself that are no pre-determined by God.

Feelings are part of free-will. Everything you are able to feel, think and do are all part of this. Hate, greed, arrogance and fear may very well be shackles for humanity but at the end of the day it's still a man's own choosing if he decides to go out and rob someone.

Saying God is good doesn't contradict the current situation. See what I mean? It sounds like you're implying that for God to be good he's got to come down here and go Superman on everything that is bad to make the world perfect for everyone to live on. You conclude that you need God himself to come to you and answer you but if he did that then everyone would be forced to follow him. It would be a major influence on our lives. The whole point of life according to Christianity is so that we can be tested and for that, evil must exist. It doesn't make God evil if he simply chooses to watch humans make decisions on their own and have given them that ability.

Edited by: KnightofEquulei

We may differ on the definition of free will it seems. May my thoughts go way to far with the word "free". However your definition of free-will is pretty much what I would call freedom of choice, the ability to make decisions in certain situations, which is granted and totally valid. The greater our knowledge is, the greater is our freedom of choice - most of the times.

To think that prayers work, I dont know if you do and dont want to imply that you do, requires at least some sort of actions from God. I did not expect him to play superman and save the world all the time, but the his appearance would solve on of mankinds biggest problems through with religion: which God is real?

You conclude that you need God himself to come to you and answer you but if he did that then everyone would be forced to follow him. It would be a major influence on our lives. The whole point of life according to Christianity is so that we can be tested and for that, evil must exist. It doesn't make God evil if he simply chooses to watch humans make decisions on their own and have given them that ability.

How can be someone be forced by his answer just by your definition of free-will (see last sentence on free-will above)? It would be like talking to a teacher of trust, who gives us a few answeres to inspire us. It would pretty much extend our free-will instead of limiting it, would it? Why he needs to test us, especially since he created us? Christians often imply that he is all-knowing, so he dont need to test us in Order to chose who goes to heaven and who not.

Edited by: Medusa_Zenovka

"Which god is real" is hardly one of mankind's biggest problems.

"God can be realized through all paths. All religions are true. The important thing is to reach the roof. You can reach it by stone stairs or by wooden stairs or by bamboo steps or by a rope. You can also climb up by a bamboo pole." ~~ Ramakrishna

I don't agree full heartedly on this quote but I agree many of the same truths can be found in multiple religions. At the end one figures that these creator gods are all the same. Just with different names and over-time, humans have attempted to make them seem more human by giving them human/earthly appearances or characteristics. Take Brahman for example...

"In Hinduism, the supreme being, an impersonal and infinite creator of the universe. Brahman exists in everything, and is the spirit, or atman, of every living thing. Achieving union with Brahman and ceasing to be reborn is the goal of every Hindu. All the images of gods, such as Vishnu or Durga, are aspects of Brahman, the one indivisible god. Brahman acts in the world through three major forms: Brahma, Shiva, and Vishnu, known collectively as the Trimurti."

"The Upanishads describe Brahman as "the eternal, conscious, irreducible, infinite, omnipresent, spiritual source of the universe of finiteness and change." Brahman is the source of all things and is in all things; it is the Self (atman) of all living beings. Brahman is impersonal Being in itself, but it can be known through the many gods and goddesses that are manifestations of Brahman. "

Now compare this to God of The Bible:

God is eternal.
(Deuteronomy 33:27; Jeremiah 10:10; Psalm 90:2)

God is infinite.
(1 Kings 8:22-27; Jeremiah 23:24; Psalm 102:25-27; Revelation 22:13)

God is omnipresent (present everywhere).
(Psalm 139:7-12)

God is within us.
(Acts 17:28, Romans 5:5)

So what we have is two gods with the same characteristics and both called the creator of everything. One however is associated with creating many other gods (just manifestations of itself) while the other acts through angels or directly. However Hindus have come to depict Brahman as a cow and all their gods and goddesses (asides from sometimes have multiple legs or arms) all look human. I say that all humans knew who God was once but eventually through generations created their own versions with some making him more human so that they could relate.

I guess this quote applies...

"All religions develop, become exclusive, become divisive and quarrelsome." ~~ Deepak Chopra

I'll add that some of these religions came from the same source.

But enough about that.

Concerning free-will and God's appearance...

If God showed himself, one would think he would be constantly watching. They would not ever sin out of fear. Robbers would not rob a bank if police were in the area unless they were either stupid or extremely confident in their abilities. There are criminals who wouldn't even perform a crime should a copper walk by say a house they planned to rob. Just knowing there's authority in the area is enough to put many criminals off. So imagine if God came down and centred himself in Israel or something. Everyone would think he is watching, there wouldn't be any doubts anymore. Many would act out of fear.

By remaining invisible to the world, many have doubts. Even the devout will have doubts because it's human nature to question what can't be seen. Therefore the actions of a person are more of their own will and not inspired by admiration or fear.

All-knowing doesn't mean God chooses to know or that he looks into the future. The whole idea of free will is to allow us to decide our path. To make our own choices but how can one see into the future if it doesn't exist? God can make the future but it would be of his will. I say that the whole idea of life down here is so that it may develop on its own and what about if God couldn't see into the future? Need he have to, to be God? How would it detract from him if he is still everywhere and all-powerful and what about if he weren't those things? I find it strange that atheists often attack these aspects and imply that a god who isn't all-powerful or all-knowing isn't a god at all. I would still venerate him if I found out that he was some sort of broken weak god (say, like Illmater from D&D) who has lost all of his energy and can only watch.

Edited by: KnightofEquulei

Ok You to, stay civil- and try to stay on topic

but wolf yor last comment did bring up a good point

why would you venterate any god?- I dontsee the logic behind that idea

Its like revering an abusive parent
or an insane king- this is the whole reason we as humans have tried to move away from letting anyone have absolute power- because as a rule no-one no matter how "good" can handle it- if you read the bible god clearly can't- the amount of cruel punishment shows this- any sane rational person can find better ways to punish people than to butcher them
and the second part of this is even more obvious- any being who demands or desires worship of others by definitionis unworthy of worship and shows extreme charater and mental flaws.

I was just wondering how you can explain it, because even when i was a deist I didnt understand the whole concept of worshiping another being.

thanks

If God showed himself, one would think he would be constantly watching. They would not ever sin out of fear. Robbers would not rob a bank if police were in the area unless they were either stupid or extremely confident in their abilities. There are criminals who wouldn't even perform a crime should a copper walk by say a house they planned to rob. Just knowing there's authority in the area is enough to put many criminals off. So imagine if God came down and centred himself in Israel or something. Everyone would think he is watching, there wouldn't be any doubts anymore. Many would act out of fear.

Instead of asking me to imagine what a police state is with just god instead of some other pervert dudes watching you, I tell you what I really have in mind when I suggested god to watch for us:
He could simply make something like the "bill of rights" for all humans in this world, rules that allow us to have a life in freedom and he only intervenes if people cross a certain border. Now, its argueable what such rules could look like. I think you and I, we have a different set of laws and values in mind, do we?

The presense of a wise god would still leave us the freedom of choice, depending on his laws. If he leaves certain responsibilities to us, such as caring for each other, and just steps in if people really go off the rails, then I dont see a reason why he should stay invisible. After all, I believe that all living creatures are, lets say programmed, with a set of values and attributes like NPCs in a RPG game - just to make an association -, so "free will" in the sense of being able to think in every possible direction does not exist. We are limited creatures with the ability to evolve in our personality and do actions that this personality allows us to do. Shift the borders and you have still have this ability, just more into the area of doing good that bad things. I hope this is not too abstract, cause I mostly think in abstract ways.

Now about your god being powerless or broken:
This sounds much more like deism than christianity to me.

Edited by: Medusa_Zenovka

Cervi_Venator wrote: Ok You to, stay civil- and try to stay on topic

Lolwut? It's been civil so far...

Cervi_Venator wrote:

but wolf yor last comment did bring up a good point

why would you venterate any god?- I don't see the logic behind that idea

Its like revering an abusive parent
or an insane king- this is the whole reason we as humans have tried to move away from letting anyone have absolute power- because as a rule no-one no matter how "good" can handle it- if you read the bible god clearly can't- the amount of cruel punishment shows this- any sane rational person can find better ways to punish people than to butcher them
and the second part of this is even more obvious- any being who demands or desires worship of others by definitionis unworthy of worship and shows extreme charater and mental flaws.

You condemn God for not punishing evil-doers but then call him evil for doing such in the Old Testament. If you want to read more about the chances God gave to people then you could always read my "God is good" article.

Cervi_Venator wrote:

I was just wondering how you can explain it, because even when i was a deist I didnt understand the whole concept of worshiping another being.

thanks

What is worship? Do I fall to the floor and worship God every night? No. I don't understand how you can worship a god. I don't understand how it works and prayer is different. Prayer (normally) is asking God for help, thanking him or well, The Lord's Prayer but I wouldn't consider that worship. I can only say that I venerate God (respect) and show this in numerous ways. For example, me defending Christianity.

Quite frankly, I am interested in what *your* view of Christianity is. Even in a Church they only have you singing psalms and saying prayers. The New Testament says again and again that it's all love. That's all God wants. To follow Christ, accept the Holy Spirit and spread the word. For me, worship is falling on your knees and praising God but how can you do that for long and what would you say?

Medusa_Zenovka wrote:

Instead of asking me to imagine what a police state is with just god instead of some other pervert dudes watching you, I tell you what I really have in mind when I suggested god to watch for us:
He could simply make something like the "bill of rights" for all humans in this world, rules that allow us to have a life in freedom and he only intervenes if people cross a certain border. Now, its argueable what such rules could look like. I think you and I, we have a different set of laws and values in mind, do we?

The presense of a wise god would still leave us the freedom of choice, depending on his laws. If he leaves certain responsibilities to us, such as caring for each other, and just steps in if people really go off the rails, then I dont see a reason why he should stay invisible. After all, I believe that all living creatures are, lets say programmed, with a set of values and attributes like NPCs in a RPG game - just to make an association -, so "free will" in the sense of being able to think in every possible direction does not exist. We are limited creatures with the ability to evolve in our personality and do actions that this personality allows us to do. Shift the borders and you have still have this ability, just more into the area of doing good that bad things. I hope this is not too abstract, cause I mostly think in abstract ways.

Now about your god being powerless or broken:
This sounds much more like deism than christianity to me.

Would WWII be an example of when "people really go off the rails" because we won that. I could say wars like these are never won by the bad guys because that's crossing the borders and the good guys will always win as determined by God. Not that I'm saying that, I'm just using your example above where God can still keep away from the world and still intervene. Who is to say how humans would think if a god came down? You say we are limited already, okay, we'd be limited even more in this instance. Better question yet, why would God need to appear to the world to be God?

I was just using the broken god as an example. What about if the god had limits but still had power? Because from what I hear atheists speak of, God has to be all-powerful and all-knowing really to be a god.

Edited by: KnightofEquulei

RadiantLoneWolf wrote: Would WWII be an example of when "people really go off the rails" because we won that. I could say wars like these are never won by the bad guys because that's crossing the borders and the good guys will always win as determined by God. Not that I'm saying that, I'm just using your example above where God can still keep away from the world and still intervene. Who is to say how humans would think if a god came down? You say we are limited already, okay, we'd be limited even more in this instance. Better question yet, why would God need to appear to the world to be God?

I dont like talking about "good" and "bad" guys, simply because the so called good guys are just the less bad guys, in the context of WW2 at least. Remember the senseless mass bombardment of Dresden and other major cities for no good reason, it was rather an act of terrorism, just as evil as the Nazis did before. But lets skip the history, it was just an example of yours - so far so good.

It is true, God could interact in that way, but I think it would be noticable, wouldnt it? If he wants us to believe in him, according to christianity, why he is hiding? When he gave us free will then why eternal paradies and eternal torture? Why we have to worship or even believe in him as bigot christians suggest? Why he would let the world look like it was created nature when he build everything? Those questions are not necessarily directed only to you, but other christians as well.

RadiantLoneWolf wrote: I was just using the broken god as an example. What about if the god had limits but still had power? Because from what I hear atheists speak of, God has to be all-powerful and all-knowing really to be a god.

But thats not the God of the bible, but rather a deity you would mention in deism. As you said, according to the bible and therefor for most strong believing christians, especially fundamentalists, God is eternal, all-powerful, omnipresent ect. That is the God we atheists are mostly refering to, not you example. So a broken God is out of question for this topic.