Terran Tech Tree for SC Revolution 2.x Thread - SC Revolution Mod for StarCraft

Here is my thoughts about how the terran tech tree in SC:Revolution 2.1 should be.

1. extra supplies: cost 100 minerals
create in emergency, quickly +4 more supply, with less micro, but its not economical. Upgrade need to have reduced upgrading time, comparing to building new Supply Depot. Default soultion should be building more Depots.

2. Firebat req. Engineer Bay instead of Barrack Tech-Lab
Barr+Reactor its monothematic and widespread Marine use even more. Firebat independent from TechLab, create variety in units type selection to be recruit in Barracks with Reactors. This change incline Terran to use more melee units.

Symmetry, like with Armory goliath and valkyrie.

building tech lab is still a good choice at every game stage due to upgrades, medics and ghosts.

3. Medic upgrades in Tech-Lab
Optic Flare - works like bliniding nova, only increase duration time. 200 sec is long enough to give reason to develop Restoration. Blind energy cost let be higher, 125 or even more, terran army has always spare medics with high energy. AoE can be minimal.

Restoration - no possibility to remove ghost lock-down render this skill useless. For gameplay reason I seriously ask to reconsider this nerf.

Further, let Restoration remove buffs from enemy units. Option to remove Stim effect from attacking infantry would be pretty neat counter.

Irradiation - late game (SFac req) offensive skill for Medic. Need to be energy costly 150, and should be less lethal than Science Vessel version. Medic is a cheap caster with plenty of energy.

3. Late upgrades in barrack tech-lab
req. of Science Facility balance the time when thous 3x strong skill (marine +1 range, better FB damage, Irrad medic) come into play.

4. Ghost detector.
Terran has early access to ComLink scan, that allow to see everything everywhere and is cheap (4 use per exp!)

Turret provide detection. Yet nobody consider building turrets in base for that reason, because of almighty scan.

Interracial variety. Let terran has ground detector unit, unlike Zerg and Protoss.

4.5. More energy for Scan
75 energy would allow to do only 2 scan with full energy in ComSat station, instead of 4.

5. Remove of Science Vessel.
This unit is ugly and uninteresting. Feel like create without imagination.
Has very useful skill that I suggest to give:
a) Detector - ghost (ocular upgrade)
b) Defense Matrix - give to Dropship. Let it be repairing Nano bots.
c) EMP - give to Turrets. Making them more viable late game.
d) Irradiation - give to Medic with tone down damage.

6. Nano bots for Dropship
Upgrade equip Dropships with miniature flying robots, which when release on target, will quickly repair it. Unfortunately for the time of repair, they disable victim attack.

Can be use to repair, retreating Battle Cruisers or other units after battle.
Can be use to stop enemy attack of Anit Air unit, before unload.
Cab be cast on self, to increase landing troops chance or go deeper into enemy base.

cooldown. Use Defense Matrix grp. Let it be the only skill for Dropship (remove Cloak and Nova)

7. EMP rocket for Turrets
late game upgrade, cooldown. Give turret usability during Protoss base attacks (also vs ground units), help to fend off Battlecruisers with Yamato. Nature of stationary defense will nicely balance this powerful skill from offensive use (reducing Protoss structure shields).

8. Charon Booster
besides Goliath, could also upgrade Valkyrie AA range and Turrets range, by +1.

9. Ion Thruster
can increase a little Wright speed too.

10. Science Facility add-ons.
while Science Facility alone need only Factory, let Nuke Silo and Physical Lab require Starport. Making them structure of tier 3.5, granting ultimate tools from pinnacle of terran tech tree.

Besides Nuke Silo, Science facility could add on Physical Lab that allow to create Battlecruisers and upgrade 2+ mechanical units in Armory.

It would reduce the amount of available nukes and create reason to build more Science Facilities.

GRP of tech labs need to be change into Control Tower or Convert Ops.

P.S. I refrain from other race comparison here, because I didnt play them as much as terran.

EDIT:

tech tree without reactors,

structures has second late add-on that allow to recruit ultimate units (ghost, tank, Bcruiser). existance of 2 add-ons create path to choose. First add-on can be switched among all 3 structures, while second is unique.

starport basic units is Dropship - to allow faster desant option for ground army , without additional involvement into air units.

science facility become an "gate" to late game

Edited by: Łagi

Extra supplies: they was introduced to help terran in two areas of conflicts, first: space management. Supply depots take too much space (compared to pylon) and terrans tends to get clumsy with supplies + addons from production building. Second: alleviate the need to control workers (you need to build a supply and then remember to take your SCV back to work) in contrast with other races. Your proposition will instead make it useful mostly if you are supply blocked which is also a nice approach. But if you are checking your supply to not get blocked you cannot get much benefit from the addon. As for same cost you can get double ammount of supply.

For Barracks reactor, i want to add other unit reactorable when stormraven replacement gets in game, could be the firebat or the new unit.

Medic restoration removing lockdown: Yeah i forgot about that, It was changed when ghost cost was raised and it was planned other ability to remove it. But never implemented.

Higher energy for scan can be a good change to test. But making ghost the detector may not be a good idea coupled with that nerf. Scan would turn the only way to detect over cliff units (as ghost don't have vision) and air unit on unpassable terrain. Also ghost are not fast enough and very fragile.

Dropship proposed ability is nice and offers some usages.

Adding the addons you propose may end limiting to much the terran compositions. Terran already has the more complex tech in terms of production (not on units requirements) zer only need hatcheries to produce units, protoss have 3 buildings and additional buildings to unlock, but once a unit is unlocked you only need to add more production facilities to increase your production rate.

For example, with this proposition, if you want to build battlecruiser supported with wraiths you will need to split your starports with the different addons. And if you get all most of your wraiths killed and want to send reinforces you production of wraith is cutted in half (unless you spend more resources, time and physical space for more addons)

Thank you a lot for answer. You're observation and experience from Starcraft is enlightening. I hope You not get offended by below answer, I just feel this way I more clearly transmit my vision.

extra supplies: 50mineral for +4supply is NO-brain. There is no game-wise decision to not upgrade Supply. Its just labor. I upgrade every single Depot, right away.
More costly upgrade is still beneficial. Not-upgraded depot can hide, which help with miss placed buildings. I never benefit from lowering depot skill, because extra supply is too good to not have. Even 75 mineral for +4 supply, will incline player to rather build than upgrade.

Restoration - if it remove Stim from enemy, Restoration would be worth to develop only for that.

Higher energy for scan can be a good change to test. But making ghost the detector may not be a good idea coupled with that nerf.

with second expansion I'm able to do instantly 8 scans (if ComSat has full energy). I can scout EFFORTLESS (no micro whatsoever) 8 place ANYWHERE on map AT NO COST. I can scan EARLY, before fastest rush. enemy CAN NOT PREVENT IT. I can REACT IMMEDIATELY to any hidden unit. And I can do it at the SAME TIME in many distant places. And I can do it the WHOLE GAME.
+ PLUS i start playing with Protoss and I feel blind the whole game (never reach observer cause the game is over for me when I get there). Zerg has fun scouting tools (parasite, burrow). If there is one thing in which Terran is ridiculously IMBA, it is scouting.

setting the scan energy cost to 70, will allow to do 2 scans and 3rd one after a while (60 left from 200). This would reduce alltime scanning.

Scan would turn the only way to detect over cliff units (as ghost don't have vision) and air unit on unpassable terrain. Also ghost are not fast enough and very fragile.

Yes, it would weaken the Terran detection - THATS THE POINT. Additionally it would increase race variety, which is PROS. I think, ghost would only be used as spotter in some critical places for defensive use (bunkers, army concentrations).

think about parallel world, where Blizzard was to afraid to differentiate a LOT three races and make Starcraft mechanic a'la Warcraft2. In this universe 20 years later some dude trying to convince other pal :
"how about removing from protoss drone the repair command? you know, the protoss could only relay on the shield regeneration then"
"are you crazy?! did you thought about what to do with heavy damaged units after combat? produce new one? It make tons of micro problems with sorting your armies per condition. Lots of "korean-folks-who-play-it-all-life" develop amazing tactics, community will refuse that, it only make Protoss worse without any benefit. What else you want to do for variety?! remove mechanical units from zerg?!"
:D

Adding the addons you propose may end limiting to much the terran compositions.

currently the presence of Reactors limit WAY more. Reactor narrow infantry composition to ONE unit. AND if you want to build TechLab you need to split your structures with different add-on's anyway.

if there is NO reactor. Terran need to build double as much structures to obtain same production speed. Double structures = double opportunity to attach other add on. Second, special add-ons are mean for late game, where you focus on one ultimate unit (with excluding only one another type from production in same structure). I admit maybe its too artificial solution, that triples the BCruiser tech tree feeling, but that would need testing. On paper looks interesting.

if you get all most of your wraiths killed and want to send reinforces you production of wraith is cutted in half (unless you spend more resources, time and physical space for more addons)

THATS THE POINT. So if you decide to produce Ultimate unit, you need to sacrifice (a little) on access to another unit type.

... but here is some butthurt oitment: Terran could swap Starport with other structures with TechLab if he desperately needs to double wright production. It would increase usability of Your "configure Add-on" mechanism*.

*nowadays I use configure Add on, for swap 2nd barrack+techlab with factory+reactor. So i have 2x barr+reactor = INSANE amount of marines with stim and range upgrade, support with few medics. And factory ready to produce siege tanks.

P.S. Protoss tech tree is full of ballast structures. Cytadel of Adun shine here the most. Structure that give you access to another structure ("ok ,lets pu here single upgrade"), even in cliche RTS stable give you at least access to Knights. One step further we have Templar Archives, that give you access to 4 units and allow you to develop 6 critical for protoss skills. Yess, Vanilla is perfectly design.

edit 9feb:

Terran already has the more complex tech in terms of production (not on units requirements) zer only need hatcheries to produce units, protoss have 3 buildings and additional buildings to unlock, but once a unit is unlocked you only need to add more production facilities to increase your production rate.

after consideration I admit that your right here.
two add-on can be for SF. Delay BCruiser and make reason to build +1 Science Facility.
then my proposition is
+ replace all Concussive with Burst
+ give Marine burst

edit 13feb:

Terran already has the more complex tech in terms of production (not on units requirements) zer only need hatcheries to produce units, protoss have 3 buildings and additional buildings to unlock, but once a unit is unlocked you only need to add more production facilities to increase your production rate.

Starcraft tech tree are made based on "ballast" structure (buildings that you only need to have 1, to unlock some unit). Ballast structure are part of SC identity. Removing Academy is inconsistent with that philosophy, but introducing Fusion Core fit well.

Vanilla add-ons suppose to delay access to more powerful tools (Factory tanks, Starport BCruiser) in each Unit Spaw point, which should limit numbers of BC and Tanks. If we add universal add on (techLabs that can be switch with different type of unit producing buildings) its contrary with the original idea.

Here yet another proposition without TechLabs,with more Ballast structures

SiegeMode upgrades in Fusion core - allow to use tanks without siege mode (tank come to play in MID, siege-mode in Late game)
Science Facility give access to wrights - no need to add Control Tower, if player need mass airforce
Control Tower grant access to Valkyrie - currently Valkyrie are very powerful weapon.
4 upgrades in each structure, structures feel less like "Filler" (Citadel of Adun).

P.S. Extra Supplies should cost 75 minerals +4supply ; Scan cost 70 energy.

Edited by: Łagi

Engineering unlocking firebat: The main purpose of those buildings (enginering, evolution, forge) is to unlock static defence and defencive detection. So you must choose on early defence or early access to new units. So making firebats unlocked will reduce the decision involved on which building make first (in vanilla, academy or engineering). Again, Academy will be reintroduced unlocking firebat or a new unit.

Turrets with EMP: static defence should not require attention to be effective, adding an ability that require micro, doesn't feel good. Also It will be extremely unbalanced against protoss. As it can reduce half of the enemy health, for a building that cost only 75 min, and you mostly build more than one in a defencive position

Delayed siege tech: Tanks alone can be easily countered by basic units (zealots, zerglings, marines), without siege mode the diamondback is better in every aspect the tank can be used.
There already have less firepower and cost more supply than regular in SC. And also each race have more counters to them.

great remarks RW.

agree, Revolution Engineer Bay is more viable, but in vanilla Academy seems as obvious choice.
Instant access to 2 units (medic and firebat) don't feel right and Academy should unlock Medic. She's more powerful. You could implement same for Protoss (forge unlock nerfed Sentry) and Zerg (evo chamber -?zergling to scourge?? its AA, but it would screw-up early scouting. Not more than terran Scan though . So maybe its balancing approach).

So how you imagine Stormraven to be implemented? What role, shape to take?

you absolutely right about emp for turrets. I was biased. Trying too hard to keep this skill on my fictitious scheme . It come from diminishing power of turrets in late game, when all main forces are upgraded to 3.

also you're right about tanks. They are perfectly fine now. Very balanced IMO. Love the min range. I use it in tank mode also very often. I was trying to make Fusion Core more inviting.
======================
ofc as shameless, happy spammer, I would paste my re-think, wish tech-tree again

Yeah, for terrans was not much decision from engineering or academy as you have detection from comsat and bunkers for defence. Still turrets may be needed early in some situations. Specially if scan energy is increased.

Fusion core already is inviting as it unlock weapon and armor upgrades for factory and starport units. So is a must have unless you play bio

And stormraven is still undecided, i tested lot of iteration before removing it.
-Reaper-like ends bad as jumping cliff implementation was not perfect, and most maps are not designed for it.
-Early cloak ends extremely powerful or only viable at a small part of the game
-Marauder like was competing to much with firebat against some units.
-My latest test, that i want to give another shot:
Make it an infantry drone (yes robotic unit from barrack) with some different modes (maybe 2 or 3 of listed below)
?Combat: ranged explosive attack with slow (like old storm raven)
?Recon: Deploys to get additional vision and become invisible, cannot move
?Support: Will deploy and give bonus to nearby units. Tested a defencive barrier that reduce any damage received from air targets. But was not convinced as terans already have defencive spells and was also too similar to dark swarm. Maybe give an offensive bonus? attack speed? Increase attack range?
?map control/harass: im thinking kind of shredder (Starcraft.wikia.com) or widow mine. What i have in mind is that deploy and becomes invisible and when a unit is in range it will attack it with a shock attack that slow (or immobilize/disable) the unit, but become visible during the attack. So will be strong against single or small groups of units. But with support of other units (or detection) the drones can be destroyed

ComSat be Science Facility add-on. Terk need to scout till mid game. Early detector Ghost/Turret become more viable.

Give burst to FB and Marines. Marine increased range upg. + burst damage would be fine vs aircrafts.

Let upgrades dont required outside structure. Nerf ability instead. F.ex. let Medic's Irradiation be less powerful than Science Vessel equivalent. Firebat Incineration gauntlets change damage from burst into explosive (so this research is in early game an downgrade).

Let academy allow medic and firebat. + Medic need tech-lab also to limit numbers.

Add-on limit numbers of powerful units. Want faster access = dont build Add-on.

Let Barrack tech-lab allow early Ghost. Tech lab allow early detection upg. for Ghost. Ghost early become spellcaster-killer (sniper round).

Science Facility allow powerful skill for Ghost mid game. And allow core, air combatant in starport (wright).

Tank required Armory to delay a little more it appearance in Mid-Game.

Fusion Core has Nuke Silo add-on. [ultimate at the pinnacle of tech tree, every structure has his add-on, reason for bio army, Fusion Core has something common with explosive matter)

EMP - if you introduce Stormraven it could be ability for him. If not, replace Ghost's Lock-Down with EMP (Dropship Nanobots works as half Lock-Down).

====
P.S. please, do not pay attention to the grammatical form of above post. I 100% aware its only my wish-listing. I write as I written to be easier to comprehend

Proposed Bio composition: in one hand it will centralize too much roles in bio composition (detection, cloak, GtA, AoE, Spellcasters) against zerg you can go pure bio and have every tool available (detection, spammable irradiate in medics, snipe against heavy units). In the other hand Bio will be only good against small units (mostly burst and concussive damage). Making bio even less competent against protoss and terran mech, which differs from what i aiming. I want every composition viable in every match up (ofc some composition will be more effective in some matchups, but using other compositions should be possible)

Firebat upgrade doing explosive damage: Turning from burst to explosive will greatly nerf their damage against small targets, which are the units that the firebat is designed to counter. Normal damage is better option, as it works the same against small units, and improve damage against large units (Wich is what I aiming either be concussive->burst, or burst->normal)

I could see as an option making firebats initial damage explosive, and normal after upgrade. This along with your proposition of marines dealing burst damage can be a viable option. So Marines will need firebat support to deal with large units. In mid game, Firebats can regain their crowd control role with the upgrade. I could give a try to this approach and see how is going, but i fear it can mess to much with early game balance

Science vessel: The science vessel is the most powerful spell caster for terran, removing it and distributing their spells in other units will overcomplicate thing in my opinion. More micro required to use irradiate with medics, you will need to control more units against protoss (ghost for detection and EMP*. Dropship for soak damage)
*Even worst if its made Stormraven skill

Com Sat (science facility add on): Make additionals scanner will cost 200/200... no one will build more than one, i get your point about the power that scan offers, but this will limit it too much.

Lastly Fusion core add-on: I dont have a lift off/on animation for the fusion core, if you have a building or impassable terrain near it, you wont be able to build the addon. Of course it can be fixed by redoing the grp.

Sorry for the late answer. I dont have much free time lately

Approach with making every tier viable in his own is wrong. Each unit should rather try to compensate other tiers => Ideally army should be composed off every units. Which is impossible to do in competitive way (because eco/time - macro in general). So player need to compromise on taking some tools. Guessed what enemy will use OR scout good. PLUS: early tier (barrack) with later game "come back" with additional tools (not obsoleting), is an virtue. Its reinforce by vanilla design, by requiring to build Barrack before Factory, opposite to Total Annihilation philosophy, where you can have solely striding, hover, vehicles, aircraft or ships army (which view you share I believe).

I'm incredible content that you take into account Marine+FBat dmg type change. Concussive dmg type is a mistake, and should be melt into burst. Explosive=>Normal sounds VERY interesting - I will not sleep, trying to figure out new implications . Early game mess is rather community habit. Besides i dont see anything to fear, nobody using competitive FB anyway. Mod can only gain on this change. PLUS: dont forget you have functional FB dmg variant from 1.6; burst=>normal.

You're right about control. But by making Medic rare unit (expensive, longer build time - kind like Defiler), together with Ghosts - the micro will be simplified.
Without Science Vessel, there is one less caster, while Medic+Ghost become more potent in this role.

ComSat: building one is a PROS. Scan become defensive tool to detect thread, not offensive exploit to increase siege tank range (or scout enemy main base in early game). shifting this skill to mid-game, will force Terran to scout. I see all + .

Fusion GRP limitation - right. I didnt think about it.

It a pleasure to disagree with you Ravenwolf, I'm really grateful you find time to respond. Even more for all the hours of awesome gaming experience. I play SC2 some times ago, but SC2 has no soul. It feels like micro fest of too many unit types, with dumb down macro mechanism and trimmed diversity (ideas like "let combine healing with transport!").

I dont have much free time lately

no one have

I was thinking about FB damage: what if FB has default Normal damage, and be upgraded to Explosiong with also static dmg upg?
f.ex. normal 12 dmg => gauntlet => 24 explosive
the point is to increase his capabilities versus big units and buildings in late game.

then I realize the same effect is achieved with keeping the old
burst => normal

after upgrade the Firebat gain increase damage vs buildings and large unit, while his potential vs small units stay same.
plus there is no mess with stats and it supports oldschool habits.

Im not talking about making every tier viable, im talking of compositions. For terran, bio is almost tier 1 -1.5. But have some upgrades at tier 2.5 and also ghosts. But The bio composition Also relies on Science vessel and sometimes AtA support to be effective (that are tier 3+). Removing Science vessel and splitting their spells in bio units will reduce the need to go starport support, and will discourage mixing units from diferents compositions

For terran, mixing units is somewhat harder due their upgrades separation (infantry, vehicles, ships) So you mostly commit to bio, or vehicles in early game. And mix some Air units (or fully switch to Air)

In vanilla SC, terran bio is only effective against zerg, and almost no usable against the other match ups. I want to make every composition to stand a chance against every match up (ofc with support of different units)

For firebat i currently revert it to burst->normal. This version will be focused on fixing bugs and crashes, with some minor balance tweaks.

Agree, you got the point. Its an enlightening post.

So philosophy you follow for terran is: we have 3 tiers (bar,fact,port). From each tier we should be able to mold our core forces, which we produce all time, and send into meatgrinder. Also in each tier there are different tools, that could be taken if needed: supports (vulture mines, medic heal, transport, scv repair) - requiring little focus and spellcasters - required attention for each use.

Lets take a look at the tiers:
Barrack =
marine+firebat - core,
medic - support,
ghost - caster.
Perfect (besides underwhelming FB).

Factory =
vulture - (cheap)core / support (mine),
diamond, gholiath - core (bonus vs ground/ vs air)
tank = support (siege) / weak core (still useful)
Where is caster in factory? There is no spells that can reinforce other tiers tactics.

Starport=
wraith - core + support (scout, harassment)
valkyrie - expensive core/support (defensive applications)
dropship - support
Science Vessel - caster
Battlecruiser - each a little [and none because expensive and infrastructure demanding]
Perfect (besides dropship being useless after delivering cargo)

Above description is flawed a lot. Because medic support don't benefit mech or air (restoration? please), while dropship support bio&mech but not air.
So dropship use is transitional between tiers, while medic not.
=====

ComSat = you keep it available early and as command center add on ? then nothing will change. With multiple scan source it required more controls (this i dont mention yet). Early access = killed scouting necessity, less viable detectors (turret, SV, ... ghost ocular proposal has no reason to exist). Aaaa... you know it all already. Dont understand your conservatism here, you change the game in many places quite drastic, usually in plus.

Ducking flying egg - even if this lazy design, dull aesthetically curiosity has all the spells and support features from game, I refuse to use it. [ not that you will care ]

I had a feeling that Revolution is slowly hitting the ceiling of potential improvements. OFC I would still love to check next version with burst Marines and FB.

My reasons against leaving terrans without flying detection is that i feel that will leave it vulnerable to some hit and run tactics, even with scan, if enemy moves out the zone and attack again the scan energy eventually go out, and ghost cant keep tracking flying enemies because of terrain and speed.