An expansion/overhaul mod of epic proportions, with entirely rebalanced gameplay, expanded factions, new gametypes, graphical overhauls, and five new factions; stealth-based Confederate Revolutionaries, tower defense-inspired Atomic Kingdom of China, economy-focused Mediterranean Syndicate, DotA-esque Order of the Talon and spammy Electrical Protectorate.

Report RSS Buffing The Defense Bureau

We made a few controversial change in 3.0 that should probably go up for discussion. Here's a central place to talk and comment.

Posted by on

EDIT: Just wanted to give a shoutout to CnCSaga who we just did an interview with recently! I'll be posting the full English interview when I have a chance, but the German version is available here if you can read it. Thanks a lot, CnCSaga!


So, some of you who downloaded the incomplete Minimod 3.0 noticed a few changes to the Defense Bureau. Since there was no readme file, I'll tell you precisely what those changes were:

-The Defense Bureau now has a support structure build queue.
-The Defense Bureau can now research an upgrade called Revised Operating Procedures (which I'll call ROP for short). This upgrade was intended to increase the power output of any of your Allied Power Plants on the field.

Current known bugs:
-ROP doesn't really work properly. I was actually midway through working on it when the decision was made to cut 3.0, so it couldn't be tweaked properly. I also never got around to giving it a description paragraph, which is why nobody knows what it does. Last I checked, it PERMANENTLY increased the power output of ANY friendly Allied Power Plant that was built AFTER the upgrade was researched. Lots of problems there.

The Concept

The main reason behind these changes is the Spectrum Tower. It's a pretty freakin' iconic Allied structure, and yet it never sees any use in vRA3. Why? Well, the way I see it:

-It required the Defense Bureau, which unlocked too little to be useful on its own. We fixed that already, Defense Bureau is worthwhile for other reasons.
-Spectrum Towers needed to be built in groups in order to reach their full potential. You can't do that unless you focus 100% on it because...
-The power requirements are too high. As the Allies, you practically need a power plant PER TOWER. Also...
-The Allies are the ONLY faction that has a hard time building multiple defenses at once. If you wanted a pair of Spectrum Towers at once, you needed a second MCV. This wasn't an issue in RA2 because everyone was limited to 1 queue, but now the Allies are easy to outproduce.

We are also focusing pretty hard on making the Defense Bureau more of a need-to-get, need-to-keep structure, sort of like the Battle Lab and Nanotech Mainframe.

The Solution

Having the Defense Bureau linked to Allied power economy makes it a structure that you need to keep protected in the endgame. Giving it a support queue makes sense with the structure's lore (Defense Bureau makes defenses olol) and lets the Allies fortify an expansion a little easier.

Alt Solution
Another option is to make the presence of the Defense Bureau allow the player to upgrade power plants and Xworkshop power output individually, and possibly make the player purchase an upgrade with the Bureau's secondary that grants the second build queue. This allows for a higher degree of fine control but also lessens the importance of the Defense Bureau overall; if it's just the power you're after, you can purchase a few upgrades then sell the DB.

The Dilemma

Making the Defense Bureau a production building makes turret crawling with the Allies SUPER EASY. Try it yourself.

Also, the Allied vulnerability in their power economy and building production is one of their big weaknesses, and (in my opinion at least) we've already given the Allies a ridiculous number of advantages over the other factions.

What do you guys think? The power thing is probably necessary, it seems stupid to have to tie up your Main Structure production every minute or so with another Power Plant unless it's the early game. Not so sure about the support structures, but we REALLY want Spectrum Towers to see more use. Any alternative suggestions you can think of?

Comments
gregester
gregester

Perhaps a cut in power usage? Or (if that throws off balance) perhaps 2 defence queues/MCV? This way you can turret push, but since you are limited to a certain radius (MCV + Prospectors) it is not as easy to turret push win. As for defence bereau, perhaps it could increase range and power of "aid" attack of spectrum towers around it. This way it passively encourages a bureau/spectrum tower ombo.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+2 votes
Graven_Image
Graven_Image

Maybe you could limit the DB's build abilities? Say, you can only build half-speed with it.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+2 votes
Commander_RealWar
Commander_RealWar

Meh.. have the defense bureau's presence not only grant a second build queue, but also a reduction in turret cost? I always find my economy more important than my power economy. The only problem with that would be once the allies get their free trade upgrade. It'd become more unbalanced then.IDK. Plus, Revised Operating Procedures sounds like it should help streamline the allies command structure. Ex: Instead of having to individually upgrading each outpost, give each outpost your highest purchased tier. Would make recovery from an attack easier for an allied player. Also, make it possible to use support powers during low power, your mcv is packed up, or if you lose your mcv.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+3 votes
P4Resistance
P4Resistance

2nd defense tab, yeah I saw something strange when I upgraded the DB.
How about to change some tech requeriments of the units to need the DB AND the clearance level? And giving the DB's construction tab the clearance levels in order to make teching up easier.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Galgus
Galgus

I don't think that the Allies have anything that would need DB and clearance- its kind of two different tech paths for them.

Anyway, as someone who likes to rush DB-Chronosphere when I can in 2v2 auto-match, I think that the power change is a good idea, but I don't really think another support tab is needed.

I guess with a power upgrade the Defense Bureau becomes a spend money now to save money later structure.

Anyway, maybe instead of a support tab it could just grant Allied MCV style build radius?

It sounds small, but its pretty annoying when you can't put something in your base or even just replace those two wall segments because your MCV is off expanding instead of just sitting in base.

Another idea is to make it globalize the highest active tech level- it would help the Allies do things like get a navy when they didn't tech up with the MCV- but that change may be too much.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
WhtLighter
WhtLighter

I think the to globalize highest tech is a bad idea. Its one of the allies weakness and I think a good part in the game, people always change the weakness to "match" those of the other sides, but if this is done it's like playing RA1 where there wasn't much of a difference between sides (I know there were some but.) If you were going to change the tech up, why not have it if you place a prospector inside an already teched up area it's able to expand the tech. I know this would cause a lot more "crawling, and not really in favor of it.
Upgrading power production when the DB is made, make it either all power plants get it, so if the DB is destroyed then all the power plants go back to producing what they did before (don't like this as much) or I like it better every pp made after the upgrade makes more power. I really like how once built the DB gets a second build option, it is a DEFENSE BUREAU. I think that suits it very well.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Galgus
Galgus

The biggest downside of non-global tech is that its a pain for the Allies to setup forward bases or even just get a tier 2 navy.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Mantonio
Mantonio

I think it might be best if you're able to upgrade Power Plants individually after the upgrade at the Defense Bureau is purchased. The Alternative - having to replace all of your power plants after the upgrade is purchased - seems a bit too time and money costly to be effective, and so would probably be ignored.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
DarkyPwnz
DarkyPwnz

In my honest opinion,that double queue idea wasn't good. It wasn't totally bad,but I think it's a lazy way to solve the ST problem. The reason is,Allies are more focused on quality,not quantity. So,here are my ideas:
1- Make Reflecting With More Benefits;
*0 boost in power
*%5-10 Range boost
*- Re-Attack Time
Note: If all these are done,you can have a beastly array of Spectrum Towers so not to make it OP;you can make the price 1500.
2- Make Upgraded PP's give more power;
This one is rather an indirect solution to the ST problem but more to the Allied power problem. As they need quality stuff,make the upgraded PP give 150 energy so you can operate 2 spectrum towers with one.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Kerensky287 Author
Kerensky287

Just gonna point out that Spectrum Towers function a lot like Patriot Missiles did in Generals - the reflecting benefit is so that if you have 2 spectrum towers in range of each other, you can basically have both of them shooting at anything that comes into range of either.

Hmm... now that I think about it, why not just make them slightly weaker and cheaper? They still have Advanced Tower benefits (shooting over walls, shooting submerged units), they still have Spectrum Tower benefits (reflected shots), but they are still numerous. Maybe a 66% cut in cost, damage and health, as well as a build time reduction?

The power upgrades will eventually be CnC3-style, where individual Plants have upgrades requiring the Defense Bureau. These upgrades will boost their power output, but give them a slight death explosion. That ensures that if the Allied player does upgrade power plants, he/she does it at a risk.

As much as I like making the Defense Bureau construct Defense Structures, I do think that it'd be a little unfair to the other factions. I also think that with all of its recent boosts to usefulness (Power upgrade, unlocking Tier X, etc) it probably needs a cost increase.

Reply Good karma+1 vote
Galgus
Galgus

Maybe it should also take up less power?

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Kerensky287 Author
Kerensky287

Already done, see also Achilles Minimod 1.0.

Reply Good karma+1 vote
Galgus
Galgus

Ah, of course.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
DarkyPwnz
DarkyPwnz

Make it take the same power,Make them more powerful and more expensive. So given the enough time,you can have a death array that is only vulnerable to artilery. Well,you should also build units yknow... And base defences aren't there to stop whole offenses,they are there to slow down the enemy steamroll/stop the rush and give you an economical superiority. 2 Spectrum Towers (2400) and maybe an occasional Engineer for reparirs (2900 in that case) can destroy 2 Apocs. (4000)

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Galgus
Galgus

I would go the opposite direction to emphasize the Allies being cost-effective and the link mechanic.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
DarkyPwnz
DarkyPwnz

Not really,allies are cost-effective but they also have quality over quantity units. Also,a more powerful ST for 1500 is still very cost effective. As said in my example,2 STs can pwn 2 Apocs.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Galgus
Galgus

To me going to other way makes more sense and is more interesting- cover more ground, use the link-up mechanic more, and see Spectrum splash become more effective vs Infantry.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Garuda1Talisman
Garuda1Talisman

keresky y u have to go ( cries )

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Igncom1
Igncom1

limit the DB to only building the Spectrum towers and have power plants upgrade 1 by 1

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
tatki82
tatki82

buy upgrade from defense bureau that allows u to have another build thing, like the crane but its just an upgrade

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
devapath
devapath

The spectrum tower is already balanced, if you change any of it's requirements it would just add up another advantage for the allies ( and they already have a lot of advantage in their air forces) besides, the Wave-Force Tower and Tesla Coil also need the Nanocore Mainframe and Super Reactor respectively

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Ninja-Kiwi1
Ninja-Kiwi1

Ackerman - "When people ask me about immigration I say ATTACK DOGS! no walls no building just dogs!"

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Post a comment
Sign in or join with:

Only registered members can share their thoughts. So come on! Join the community today (totally free - or sign in with your social account on the right) and join in the conversation.

Follow Report Profile
Icon
C&C: Red Alert 3
Developer
Infinity Realms
Contact
Send Message
Homepage
Paradoxmod.com
Release date
Mod watch
Follow
News
Browse
News
Report
Report
Share
Related Games
C&C: Red Alert 3
C&C: Red Alert 3 Real Time Strategy
Related Groups
Infinity Realms
Infinity Realms Developer & Publisher