Child abuse Thread - The Debating Society

The picture posted on the atheist page ( Moddb.com ) is just terribly wrong.
One being that the bible speaks out against provoking children(something like 'parents do not provoke your children') also nobody that I know threatens children with hell. It's a false statment anyways since the reason people will end up in hell is because they didn't fulfill the one requirement(it's impossible to make it on your own:( absolutely NO hope to get saved by yourself) so God prepared a way for us to be saved since without Jesus not even one of use deserves to live. the penalty for even one sin equals death. Just like a murdur would not be saying, "but I helped a lady cross a street." when they killed 5 other people and get away with it. No the price for murdering someone (regardless of how good you were=prison time(or death sentence in some states)) so in a similar way God cannot be perfect and judge faultly. Therefore we can ONLY go to heaven by accepting Jesus as our savior. So is it true a disobedient kid gets sent to hell, yes and no. Yes, because it's impossible to be perfect anyways so nomatter if disobaying is sinful or not doesnt change a thing. No, because a kid most likely doesn't know that they are doing something bad. Also since the only way to get to heaven in the first place is through Jesus in the first place, then being sent to hell specifically for one thing is highly unlikely.

Many religious people threaten their children with hell (as did my father, by the way). Doing so is child abuse.

yes same thing happened here

and i know it happened to most of the other christains i know, its quite common.

So many things wrong with your argument.

1) So you start off by saying a personal anecdote (how many parents do you know?) I would hazard a guess as to say you don't know the majority of parents in the world, your country, your province/territory or even your city.

2) Your main 'argument' also contradicts itself (that or you didn't explain it well enough, some of your sentences are rehashes of other ones which makes that a tiresome read):

--

"The penalty for even one sin equals death."
Ok i can understand that, i don't agree, but your point is clear.

"Therefore we can ONLY go to heaven by accepting Jesus as our savior."
This is where the contradiction comes in, if i murder someone and then accept Jesus I will go to heaven.

--

Let me give you a hypothetical:
There are two people walking down the street: Person A (an Atheist) and Person B (can be Christian, Muslim, Atheist or any other religious belief) walking down a street. For whatever reason Person B decides to kill Person A. The cause is irrelevant because, as you said, the punishment for one crime equals death (if i kill someone because im starving to death and need food or if i kill someone because im a sadist, it makes no difference because the crime is murder). According to you Person B would then go to Hell, except that Person B (after spending a long time in prison) has seen the error of their ways and has truly and fully accepted Jesus into their hearts. When Person B dies they will now go to Heaven, however Person A is in Hell simply for the fact that they were an Atheist when they were wrongly murdered by Person B.

--

Getting back to the original point (the child disobeying):

3) "Yes, because it's impossible to be perfect anyways so nomatter if disobaying is sinful or not doesnt change a thing."

So you're saying that it is impossible for anyone to be perfect, so basically everyone is going to hell no matter what. Except for the fact that Christians accept Jesus into their hearts and all past, present and future sins are abolished as long as they hold that belief. Your claim is that it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to be perfect, so by your own definition Christians do sin but are forgiven because they have Jesus. This point basically buffers the hypothetical i gave above.

4) "No, because a kid most likely doesn't know that they are doing something bad."

This point is bullocks because if someone is seriously mentally ill they also do not know what they are doing either. Ergo it is okay for them to sin as well by your definition.

5) Also your last sentence contradicts the previous one. You claim they have childhood innocence and therefore won't be sent to hell (they don't know what they're doing) but then claim that the only way to go to Heaven is through Jesus. So basically the second last sentence will only be true if the child is Christian.

--

The funniest part of your argument is this:

"the penalty for even one sin equals death." ~ ElfFriend halfway through is argument

"then being sent to hell specifically for one thing is highly unlikely." ~ ElfFriend at the end of his argument

My argument is unnecessary since you basically contradicted yourself here... Your conclusion does not follow your proof --> your conclusion is incorrect. All of your proof claims that you can only get into Heaven if you accept Jesus, so why don't you just say that children who don't accept Jesus go to hell instead of skirting around the issue?

Edited by: Admiral-165

well i would add to that, but i don't think i could add anything at all that wasnt all aready said.

cant wait for the counter.

I hate this tread, i had nearly everything typed up and then i messed it up:( oh well enough of me sobbing, better type it up(again)

Admiral wrote: 1) So you start off by saying a personal anecdote (how many parents do you know?) I would hazard a guess as to say you don't know the majority of parents in the world, your country, your province/territory or even your city.

I only know my own parents but threatening children with hell is not what a christian would do.

Admiral wrote: 2) Your main 'argument' also contradicts itself (that or you didn't explain it well enough, some of your sentences are rehashes of other ones which makes that a
tiresome read):

sorry! im so tired that i can hardly think, and i still have to do Science worksheets, and study for an AP Math test. i was even worst off yesterday.

Admiral wrote: "The penalty for even one sin equals death."
Ok i can understand that, i don't agree, but your point is clear.

"Therefore we can ONLY go to heaven by accepting Jesus as our savior."
This is where the contradiction comes in, if i murder someone and then accept Jesus I will go to heaven.

--

Let me give you a hypothetical:
There are two people walking down the street: Person A (an Atheist) and Person B (can be Christian, Muslim, Atheist or any other religious belief) walking down a street. For whatever reason Person B decides to kill Person A. The cause is irrelevant because, as you said, the punishment for one crime equals death (if i kill someone because im starving to death and need food or if i kill someone because im a sadist, it makes no difference because the crime is murder). According to you Person B would then go to Hell, except that Person B (after spending a long time in prison) has seen the error of their ways and has truly and fully accepted Jesus into their hearts. When Person B dies they will now go to Heaven, however Person A is in Hell simply for the fact that they were an Atheist when they were wrongly murdered by Person B.

what makes you think that murder is any worst then telling a lie, stealing, or not keeping the Sabbath? for God a sin is a SIN. so since getting to heaven by ourselves is
100% IMPOSSIBLE then we have to accept God's gift. Jesus already paid the price for our sins, we just need to accept his payment. so what would happen to the atheist
that didnt have the time to choose? idk actually that would be between him and God, however please putting of the gift of God is not a good idea.

Admiral wrote: 3) "Yes, because it's impossible to be perfect anyways so nomatter if disobaying is sinful or not doesnt change a thing."

So you're saying that it is impossible for anyone to be perfect, so basically everyone is going to hell no matter what. Except for the fact that Christians accept Jesus into their hearts and all past, present and future sins are abolished as long as they hold that belief. Your claim is that it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to be perfect, so by your own definition Christians do sin but are forgiven because they have Jesus. This point basically buffers the hypothetical i gave above.

being gifted the gift of eternal life and being spared from judgement are not the same thing. Jesus gifts us with eternal life, but God might still judge us. lastly this is
God's problem not mine, so i wont worry about this, God will make it fair.

Admiral wrote: 4) "No, because a kid most likely doesn't know that they are doing something bad."

This point is bullocks because if someone is seriously mentally ill they also do not know what they are doing either. Ergo it is okay for them to sin as well by your
definition.

Again i'll let God worry about how he'll judge those people. also can ignorance be a sin? Adam and Eve were ignorant in the garden.

Admiral wrote: 5) Also your last sentence contradicts the previous one. You claim they have childhood innocence and therefore won't be sent to hell (they don't know what they're doing) but then claim that the only way to go to Heaven is through Jesus. So basically the second last sentence will only be true if the child is Christian.

idk if you noticed or not but about when do children actually choose whether they want to be Christians or not? (its usually around 10-15ish, right?) before that i think a
kid gets free entry, not 100% sure though so dont quote me telling me im wrong since i very well may be wrong. again ill leave this for God to worry about.

Admiral wrote: The funniest part of your argument is this:

"the penalty for even one sin equals death." ~ ElfFriend halfway through is argument

"then being sent to hell specifically for one thing is highly unlikely." ~ ElfFriend at the end of his argument

could you right clearer when your nearly asleep? anyways, what i meant is that we sin nearly EVERY hour, so the chance of us sinning only ONCE is impossible, however
i understand that theoretically the penalty for one sin is death so theoretically its possible, but in the context that i put that last sentence was to wrap up the fact that we
sin nearly 6-12hours per day(the rest we sleep and i dont think we can sin while sleeping) anyways since we are such sinners we die for all our sins, not just one.

Admiral wrote: My argument is unnecessary since you basically contradicted yourself here... Your conclusion does not follow your proof --> your conclusion is incorrect. All of your proof claims that you can only get into Heaven if you accept Jesus, so why don't you just say that children who don't accept Jesus go to hell instead of skirting around the issue?

i think i answered the point shown in this "quote"

Wait, wait wait....

Someone wrote: what makes you think that murder is any worst then telling a lie, stealing, or not keeping the Sabbath?

All sins are the same? So if I steal someone's pop tart at lunch, I'm the equivalent of a murderer?

And even worse, if I murder someone but accept God, I go to heaven, and steal/murder nothing, but don't accept God, I go to hell?

These are some seriously screwed up values. If this God you speak of were just, he wouldn't care if people loved him or not, he would care if they were decent human beings. "Accepting Jesus in your heart" is nothing compared to being a moral, good person. If he existed, I would'nt think a being who created such a disgusting system worth worshipping anyway.

Edited by: Mr.Walrus

yep Mr.Walrus a sin is a sin and the punishment for even ONE sin is death, therefore the chance of going to heaven by yourself is impossible. only by accepting the free
gift that God offers can we go to heaven. sin=disobeying God's commandments. Do you know WHO Jesus hated more then anyone else? the pharisees, why? because they
only acted good, their hearts were rotten. Jesus called them satan's children, not God's as they claimed. he told them that they wrote their own laws but did not obey
God's laws. remember the criminal on the cross beside Jesus, he believed and was saved. no amount of good works can get you into heaven, good works do not even
coverup sins. (not saying that works are not important, our "faith is justified by works" (somewhere in the bible, too lazy to check)) anyways the price for one sin is
death, therefore, nobody deserves to go to heaven. heaven is a gift!!

btw getting back to the original point, threatening children is wrong:D

This illogical madness is why I refuse gods. I cannot stand this injustice. This is not a gift, this is a disgusting oppression!

So all those people who died before Christ went to hell? It must be pretty crowded there, not the best place for holidays xD

Letting someone die while you could do something about it equals murder. Therefore God is murderer and should die.

CommanderDef wrote: So all those people who died before Christ went to hell? It must be pretty crowded there, not the best place for holidays xD

But take it from the bright side: in hell only Christians suffer in 7 different pits, the so called 7 gates of hell. And other religions have their own pits where evil souls will burn. But we atheists will rest their on an all day sunny and beautiful beach with some hot sexy devil chicks and Satan is the keeper of his own bar. Im pretty sure in hell the beach is endless, only the pits are crowded like hell. xD

CommanderDef wrote: Letting someone die while you could do something about it equals murder. Therefore God is murderer and should die.

Or we will become Asgards mighty warriors and we fight along side with Odin, Thor and Baldar against the evil christian god and his army of cursed angels, rapists, murderer and cheater who all went to heaven because they were guided by Jesus. xD

That bar is a very good idea. But I am not sure if I want to spend eternity in it. So, when my time comes, I just want to let go, not watch this world, burn somewhere or get bored in heaven. And certainly not to be rebirth as animal xD

I want to be reborn as a cow, in india- in a hindu holy city..

then i would be like a god.

though an open bar sounds nice to.

Asgard and thor not so much though, i mean they all die perminently in the end so why would i want to go to an afterlife then die again? i would rather just die once and get it over with...

so hers my problem, christains always claim part of the reason they are christain is the "justice involved. But just from what you said elf i see no justice.
I mean if a person who steals an apple to feed a child is as bad as the guy who raped and then ate women- and they are both just as evil and just as doomed. then there is no justice, and that would mean that if i was still a christain i would have no reason to be a good person
so i coul do whatever i want (rape, murder, pillage, etc.) without consquesnces.

so as an atheist i have to be a good person because its what is best for me and those around me, but as a christain i can do whatever the hell i want and get away with it...
suddenly the choice is very clear.

Ok, in that case I am already in that non-literal fire. Successfully separated from God.

no fire??? :-(

well that makes the choice even clearer.

But back to the orignial dicussion. Elf the bible says all people are born into the world with sin. which would imply that from BIRTH humans are doomed to hell and death, so everybody (after birth) is doomed and as you said are all equal in sin.
so a newborn baby is just a evil as Hitler or Josef Mengele and all three will go to hell unless saved- which s the problem, not just because Hitler and Mengele were completly and undderly evil, but because the baby has done nothing yet if it dies it will suffer forever. I wouldnt call this justice at all.
the fact is that a maniac could cut up and eat his neighbors and still go to heavan but that little baby who hasnt the brain power to choose is cursed for sin which is gods fault in the first place.
Thats not justice, its lunacy.

ElfFriend wrote:
I only know my own parents but threatening children with hell is not what a christian would do.

Right okay, that was my point, you don't know anyone elses parents. Of course after you admit this you go on to say that no Christian would do this. So I will say again: Do you know every Christian parents in the world, Country, Province/Territory, City?

ElfFriend wrote:
sorry! im so tired that i can hardly think, and i still have to do Science worksheets, and study for an AP Math test. i was even worst off yesterday.

I'm going to say this once, and i hope you don't take it the wrong way. I went to the IB program in my city for 4 years, and just got into Mechanical Engineering at University of Waterloo (best Engineering school in Canada) so please do not use this excuse. I understand you may have a lot of work to do (and i don't doubt it with AP), but so do I. If you are really too tired to respond, or need to do homework, then just do it. I disappear from the internet for days sometimes because i have work to do in real life. Don't use it as an excuse please.

ElfFriend wrote:
what makes you think that murder is any worst then telling a lie, stealing, or not keeping the Sabbath? for God a sin is a SIN. so since getting to heaven by ourselves is 100% IMPOSSIBLE then we have to accept God's gift. Jesus already paid the price for our sins, we just need to accept his payment. so what would happen to the atheist that didnt have the time to choose? idk actually that would be between him and God, however please putting of the gift of God is not a good idea.

What makes you think it it isn't worse? Are you telling me someone working on a Saturday is equivalent to Someone killing someone? Also you said it is 100% impossible to get into Heaven by ourselves, but then you claim the Atheist has a chance of getting into Heaven? No he would be sent directly to Hell by your definition, just admit it.

ElfFriend wrote:
being gifted the gift of eternal life and being spared from judgement are not the same thing. Jesus gifts us with eternal life, but God might still judge us. lastly this is God's problem not mine, so i wont worry about this, God will make it fair.

Alright, so if God will still judge someone after they have fully accepted Jesus into their hearts (and he judges them as being bad) then they will go to Hell? In which case God is not infinitely merciful.

Over the course of your last two points you have claimed it would be possible for an Atheist to get into Heaven because it is between him and God, and that even after accepting Jesus a murderer may still be judged because God will make it fair. So my question is then: What is the point of accepting Jesus if an Atheist can still go to heaven and a Christian may go to Hell?

ElfFriend wrote:
Again i'll let God worry about how he'll judge those people. also can ignorance be a sin? Adam and Eve were ignorant in the garden.

Let God do your thinking for you... According to the story of Adam and Eve Knowledge would be Sin whereas Ignorance would be bliss. Ergo the only people who get into Heaven would be children, mentally insane people, and Christians where everyone else would go to Hell.

ElfFriend wrote:
idk if you noticed or not but about when do children actually choose whether they want to be Christians or not? (its usually around 10-15ish, right?) before that i think a kid gets free entry, not 100% sure though so dont quote me telling me im wrong since i very well may be wrong. again ill leave this for God to worry about.

I thought you might say something like this. Firstly, why exactly does the fifth commandment tell Children to honour their parents then? Way back then Children were NOT people older than 15 years old, so if God forgives them because they're children then why does God tell them to be good? Maybe parents back then were really bad so they needed God to babysit their children or something.

Also if people aged 0-15 or 0-10 get a free pass to Heaven then what's stopping them from committing Sin and then repenting before they leave their 15 year grace-period?

ElfFriend wrote:
could you right clearer when your nearly asleep? anyways, what i meant is that we sin nearly EVERY hour, so the chance of us sinning only ONCE is impossible, however i understand that theoretically the penalty for one sin is death so theoretically its possible, but in the context that i put that last sentence was to wrap up the fact that we sin nearly 6-12hours per day(the rest we sleep and i dont think we can sin while sleeping) anyways since we are such sinners we die for all our sins, not just one.

If you were really tired then go to sleep and create this thread later, no one was forcing you to write but yourself.

At this point it is almost redundant to go further, you say we Sin at least (or nearly) once an hour --> you say the punishment for even ONE Sin is death --> Your conclusion, if you weren't so afraid to say it, is that everyone who does not accept Jesus goes to Hell. You had to create some made-up rule about a 10-15 year grace-period for children to avoid sounding like a sadist, but lets face it, according to you all non-Christians go to Hell.

Also (this is just a funny aside but,) when you have biblical thought crime (such as the 10th commandment) it makes sinning while you sleep possible! If you have a dream about your neighbours new car (or anything else they own) then you are now sinning while you sleep. According to you, and the 10th commandment humans basically Sin every hour of the day for their entire lives.

then there is no justice, and that would mean that if i was still a christain i would have no reason to be a good person
so i coul do whatever i want (rape, murder, pillage, etc.) without consquesnces.

Therefore you would not be a true christian, and you would still get judged.

So all those people who died before Christ went to hell? It must be pretty crowded there, not the best place for holidays xD

Letting someone die while you could do something about it equals murder. Therefore God is murderer and should die.

what did Jesus do during those 3 days that his earthly body was dead? didnt he go and speak with those that lived before he died? and God wants to show us how terrible
satan's rule is since if all we knew was good, then what free will would we have? we'd still have free will, it just would not be as full.

But back to the orignial dicussion. Elf the bible says all people are born into the world with sin. which would imply that from BIRTH humans are doomed to hell and death, so everybody (after birth) is doomed and as you said are all equal in sin.
so a newborn baby is just a evil as Hitler or Josef Mengele and all three will go to hell unless saved- which s the problem, not just because Hitler and Mengele were completly and undderly evil, but because the baby has done nothing yet if it dies it will suffer forever. I wouldnt call this justice at all.
the fact is that a maniac could cut up and eat his neighbors and still go to heavan but that little baby who hasnt the brain power to choose is cursed for sin which is gods fault in the first place.
Thats not justice, its lunacy.

did you miss my point where i mentioned that children might get special treatment?

ElfFriend wrote: idk if you noticed or not but about when do children actually choose whether they want to be Christians or not? (its usually around 10-15ish, right?) before that i think a
kid gets free entry, not 100% sure though so dont quote me telling me im wrong since i very well may be wrong. again ill leave this for God to worry about.

also people like hitler will be JUDGED.

Admiral-165 wrote: Right okay, that was my point, you don't know anyone elses parents. Of course after you admit this you go on to say that no Christian would do this. So I will say again: Do you know every Christian parents in the world, Country, Province/Territory, City?

its contradictory to the bible to scare the crap out of a child, at least im quite sure that Jesus would oppose such behavior. i mean threatening children which are just beginning to learn about this world, is plainly WRONG.

Admiral-165 wrote: I'm going to say this once, and i hope you don't take it the wrong way. I went to the IB program in my city for 4 years, and just got into Mechanical Engineering at University of Waterloo (best Engineering school in Canada) so please do not use this excuse. I understand you may have a lot of work to do (and i don't doubt it with AP), but so do I. If you are really too tired to respond, or need to do homework, then just do it. I disappear from the internet for days sometimes because i have work to do in real life. Don't use it as an excuse please.

sorry if you took it as an excuse, i was just explaining why my writing sucked, which is not an excuse. since i could have done better. again sorry, ill try writing better.

Admiral-165 wrote: What makes you think it it isn't worse? Are you telling me someone working on a Saturday is equivalent to Someone killing someone? Also you said it is 100% impossible to get into Heaven by ourselves, but then you claim the Atheist has a chance of getting into Heaven? No he would be sent directly to Hell by your definition, just admit it.

yes sin=not doing what God asked. (Adam and Eve sinned when when they disobeyed God) and:

ElfFriend wrote: so what would happen to the atheist that didnt have the time to choose? idk actually that would be between him and God, however please putting of the gift of God is not a good idea.

does that sound like him getting admitted freely, or by his own works?

Admiral-165 wrote: Alright, so if God will still judge someone after they have fully accepted Jesus into their hearts (and he judges them as being bad) then they will go to Hell? In which case God is not infinitely merciful.

Over the course of your last two points you have claimed it would be possible for an Atheist to get into Heaven because it is between him and God, and that even after accepting Jesus a murderer may still be judged because God will make it fair. So my question is then: What is the point of accepting Jesus if an Atheist can still go to heaven and a Christian may go to Hell?

okay i havent died and come to life, i have not traveled in time, God didnt tell me this himself, so im just going of what i have heard from others, what i have read, and a im making some guesses(educated guesses) so Christians (not all christians since Jesus said that he will say "i never knew you to some" those that act like christians but are not christians) might have Jesus as their "lawyer" while those who Jesus didnt know will not have Jesus saying this persons sins are already paid for. another possibility is that everyone would get judged anyways, but later only some (those that have accepted Jesus) will be allowed entry. anyways those are the first 2 thoughts of how it might be that i though of, the second one is based more of my "guess" then the first one.

Admiral-165 wrote: Let God do your thinking for you... According to the story of Adam and Eve Knowledge would be Sin whereas Ignorance would be bliss. Ergo the only people who get into Heaven would be children, mentally insane people, and Christians where everyone else would go to Hell.

who am i to speak for God?

Admiral-165 wrote: I thought you might say something like this. Firstly, why exactly does the fifth commandment tell Children to honour their parents then? Way back then Children were NOT people older than 15 years old, so if God forgives them because they're children then why does God tell them to be good? Maybe parents back then were really bad so they needed God to babysit their children or something.

Also if people aged 0-15 or 0-10 get a free pass to Heaven then what's stopping them from committing Sin and then repenting before they leave their 15 year grace-period?

okay, doing something intentionally and doing something something because you dont know better is quite different. i think the "grace" ends when someone realizes that they can intentionally do wrong. as for the 5th commandment, well i know people that dont honer their parents even when their adults...anyways, i dont actually know too much about this commandment and i'd rather not make something up this time, maybe yuribeat5 might know more...

Admiral-165 wrote: At this point it is almost redundant to go further, you say we Sin at least (or nearly) once an hour --> you say the punishment for even ONE Sin is death --> Your conclusion, if you weren't so afraid to say it, is that everyone who does not accept Jesus goes to Hell. You had to create some made-up rule about a 10-15 year grace-period for children to avoid sounding like a sadist, but lets face it, according to you all non-Christians go to Hell.

Also (this is just a funny aside but,) when you have biblical thought crime (such as the 10th commandment) it makes sinning while you sleep possible! If you have a dream about your neighbours new car (or anything else they own) then you are now sinning while you sleep. According to you, and the 10th commandment humans basically Sin every hour of the day for their entire lives.

i didnt make up the grace-period, i actually got the idea from the series "left behind" the kids version i read about 4-5 years ago or more. there is only one way to heaven and that one way is Jesus, therefore without Jesus there is no way to heaven. however Jesus loved children, when the disciples tried to get the kids away from Jesus, Jesus objected. have you read the verses where Jesus showed how much he cared about children?

sorry for the extremely long reply.

ElfFriend wrote:
its contradictory to the bible to scare the crap out of a child, at least im quite sure that Jesus would oppose such behavior. i mean threatening children which are just beginning to learn about this world, is plainly WRONG.

Yet God causes the death of every firstborn son in Egypt? There are also worse examples than this.

ElfFriend wrote:
yes sin=not doing what God asked. (Adam and Eve sinned when when they disobeyed God) and:

ElfFriend wrote: so what would happen to the atheist that didnt have the time to choose? idk actually that would be between him and God, however please putting of the gift of God is not a good idea.

does that sound like him getting admitted freely, or by his own works?

When i first read it, it sounded like you were saying the Atheist would get into Heaven. Even then, the Atheist is now sent to hell for no reason except for the fact that he did not believe.

ElfFriend wrote:
okay i havent died and come to life, i have not traveled in time, God didnt tell me this himself, so im just going of what i have heard from others, what i have read, and a im making some guesses(educated guesses) so Christians (not all christians since Jesus said that he will say "i never knew you to some" those that act like christians but are not christians) might have Jesus as their "lawyer" while those who Jesus didnt know will not have Jesus saying this persons sins are already paid for. another possibility is that everyone would get judged anyways, but later only some (those that have accepted Jesus) will be allowed entry. anyways those are the first 2 thoughts of how it might be that i though of, the second one is based more of my "guess" then the first one.

who am i to speak for God?

Alright so if you don't speak for God then we can just end this here. You've said several times (and have made it very obvious) that one Sin = death and eternity in Hell UNLESS the person is Christian in which case they are saved. Unfortunately the conversation doesn't end here because which denomination of Christianity is the correct one? Catholicism is the largest so it must be correct right? All those Catholic priests who molest little boys aren't saved by Jesus are they?

ElfFriend wrote:
okay, doing something intentionally and doing something something because you dont know better is quite different. i think the "grace" ends when someone realizes that they can intentionally do wrong. as for the 5th commandment, well i know people that dont honer their parents even when their adults...anyways, i dont actually know too much about this commandment and i'd rather not make something up this time, maybe yuribeat5 might know more...

I'd rather you not talk about it than make an error. Either way what happens to mentally ill people who don't know what they're doing? They remain innocent of their sins so will they go to Heaven despite not technically accepting Jesus (though they are innocent of their sins as well)?

ElfFriend wrote:
i didnt make up the grace-period, i actually got the idea from the series "left behind" the kids version i read about 4-5 years ago or more. there is only one way to heaven and that one way is Jesus, therefore without Jesus there is no way to heaven. however Jesus loved children, when the disciples tried to get the kids away from Jesus, Jesus objected. have you read the verses where Jesus showed how much he cared about children?

Well i just did right now, in the same part Jesus also says to obey the 10 commandments. So Jesus may love children, but if they do not follow the commandments then... What happens? 'Left Behind' may be a Christian book series but it isn't the Bible you can't quote it realistically for having any solutions, and you said yourself that you do not speak for God. So then the only source would be the Bible? In which case Children who do not obey their parents are sinners and go to Hell (Jesus says so indirectly by supporting the 10 commandments).

I'm going to go do a Chemistry assignment now...

ElfFriend wrote: Therefore you would not be a true christian, and you would still get judged.

Wait, are you implying that 'true' Christians aren't even judged if they were bad? You see, this is why I have problems with Christian morality. The perfectly moral book has the morals of a primitive society (yes, I'm also talking about Jesus in the NT).

ElfFriend wrote: what did Jesus do during those 3 days that his earthly body was dead? didnt he go and speak with those that lived before he died? and God wants to show us how terrible
satan's rule is since if all we knew was good, then what free will would we have? we'd still have free will, it just would not be as full.

I thought Jesus/God could be everywhere, yet it constantly makes it sound in the Bible like they have limits to their magic powers. Like how in the Garden of Eden, God was seen 'walking around'.

ElfFriend wrote: did you miss my point where i mentioned that children might get special treatment?

The key word here is 'might'.

ElfFriend wrote: its contradictory to the bible to scare the crap out of a child, at least im quite sure that Jesus would oppose such behavior. i mean threatening children which are just beginning to learn about this world, is plainly WRONG.

Oh, where does it say that? Though IDK if Jesus would oppose such behavior (he also did his share of threatening people), the case rests that the majority of Christians still do this sort of shit in the US at least. The children are scared by the threats of hell, and without critical thinking to oppose such ideals, they fall easy prey to the religion trap. Only the strongest of wills can break through this barrier in Christianity.

ElfFriend wrote:
yes sin=not doing what God asked. (Adam and Eve sinned when when they disobeyed God) and:

God didn't 'ask' anything except if you actually read the Bible. Here's the problem with the Bible: it's a physical list of instructions for an entity that isn't a physical construct. The entity, God, could tell us if we came to him, but if we don't have the Bible to access to, we are doomed to hell apparently. And who in their right mind would believe everything that book said without someone in the first place TELLING them to? I always found it bullshit I had to get 'orders from God' from a human.

ElfFriend wrote: so what would happen to the atheist that didnt have the time to choose? idk actually that would be between him and God, however please putting of the gift of God is not a good idea.
does that sound like him getting admitted freely, or by his own works?

What are you implying here? That an atheist openly denies God's existence? Hahaha, that's funny. An atheist just doesn't trust the book nor the Christians who support it to legitimately believe it. An atheist also is backed up by science and uses the scientific method to tell if something is real or not. God is an entity that cannot be proven real with the scientific method, therefore God doesn't exist to us.

Being an Atheist is a matter of:

1. Lack of trust in the 'supposed' material a deity supposedly used to contact people
2. Using science and the scientific method
3. Wanting real understanding and evidence of the universe

Admiral-165 wrote: Alright, so if God will still judge someone after they have fully accepted Jesus into their hearts (and he judges them as being bad) then they will go to Hell? In which case God is not infinitely merciful.

Over the course of your last two points you have claimed it would be possible for an Atheist to get into Heaven because it is between him and God, and that even after accepting Jesus a murderer may still be judged because God will make it fair. So my question is then: What is the point of accepting Jesus if an Atheist can still go to heaven and a Christian may go to Hell?

okay i havent died and come to life, i have not traveled in time, God didnt tell me this himself, so im just going of what i have heard from others, what i have read, and a im making some guesses(educated guesses) so Christians (not all christians since Jesus said that he will say "i never knew you to some" those that act like christians but are not christians) might have Jesus as their "lawyer" while those who Jesus didnt know will not have Jesus saying this persons sins are already paid for. another possibility is that everyone would get judged anyways, but later only some (those that have accepted Jesus) will be allowed entry. anyways those are the first 2 thoughts of how it might be that i though of, the second one is based more of my "guess" then the first one.

ElfFriend wrote: Let God do your thinking for you... According to the story of Adam and Eve Knowledge would be Sin whereas Ignorance would be bliss. Ergo the only people who get into Heaven would be children, mentally insane people, and Christians where everyone else would go to Hell.
who am i to speak for God?

Because if God is an ass, why should we worship the fucker? Would you worship Hitler? No? Then you wouldn't worship God. Both committed genocides and promised to bring about good; good that hasn't happened or cannot be proven to have happened. Not to mention, God would also be held ultimately responsible for our actions. You don't blame the faulty house for the worker who built it. The worker should be blamed. Of course we aren't wooden buildings and can think for ourselves, but ultimately our faults would be Gods if he did exist.

Personally, I think no God explains why we are so faulty and everything isn't perfect. The Bible's way of making it out leaves us with a confused/immoral image of everything.

Deer_Hunter wrote: Asgard and thor not so much though, i mean they all die perminently in the end so why would i want to go to an afterlife then die again? i would rather just die once and get it over with...

As far as I know they died because of the Ragnarök, during the christianification.

Oh, so it isn't fire, but eternal oblivion.

Glad we sorted that out xD.

Why do Christians always disagree on what happens after we die? Doesn't the Bible make ANYTHING clear? The sects of Christianity measure in the thousands alone in the US.

Well, no one died and returned to talk about, so I guess our body just rots and with it all what made us who once were. We just vanish,

Edited by: Medusa_Zenovka

Wait we get to play Oblivion eternally? I hope they have wifi in hell because i'm prolly gonna need some mods to pass the time between now and... forever.

All joking aside, if Hell is eternal nothing than how is it different from Heaven? Are my only two choices just eternal nothing (Hell) or eternal bliss (Heaven)? That sounds really boring. What are you gonna do for eternity? i'd rather just die and let it end.

@Vel yes it's true, no sect every agrees on anything. It's impossible to get a straight answer from these guys because theres too many interpretations of the same book.

Admiral-165 wrote: Wait we get to play Oblivion eternally? I hope they have wifi in hell because i'm prolly gonna need some mods to pass the time between now and... forever.

Skyrim would be better. "FUS RO RAH!"