Realistic squad based tactical multiplayer robot shooter. Thread

Hey guys.
After leaving a dying mod team after working on it for a year (left because i was one of the only active members) i decided to use the experience acquired whilst working on the old mod and learn from the mistakes that we did.

So i present to you: Realistic squad based tactical multiplayer robot shooter using the source engine (dev-name)

I sat down and thought: what kind of mod doesn't the source engine have allready, we have a brilliant medieval combat mod (aoc), an awesome medieval deathmatch mod (pvk), a great space-combat mod (ES), even an excellent rts/fps hybrid (empires).
But what kind of mod does the source engine lack? Red orchestra was my inspiration as i decided on making a realistic mod for the source engine. Furthermore i decided i wanted to do a highly squad-based mod that focused on cooperation and teamwork.

What killed the mod i just worked on was that we took on a task too great for any of us to handle. Now after reading about my ambitious plan about making a realistic squad-based teamwork mod you might think i'm repeating that mistake, but hear me out now. Adding realism to a mod involves including alot of things like being able to rest your gun on top of a barricade or hearing bullets whizzing by. All of these are major additions to the source engine, and adding all of these in one big build would take forever, killing off the interest for the mod, even before its released.

Instead of working like that, i'm going to go for a different approach used by Toady, the developer of dwarf fortress.
First we'll make a basic engine containing only minor changes to half life 2 deathmatch like having a new weapon that operates quite realisticly by having much higher damage, being really inaccurate whilst moving and perhaps even utilizing an ironsight-system. We could slightly change the rules for the ordinary hl:dm to include longer spawn times and perhaps tickets and a simple squad system. Then we'd work gradually by adding "bloats" that contain new features, weapons and changes.
This style of development makes the testers download a huge ammount of patches and updates, but keeps people interested.
(if you are interested in learning more about toady, check out Bay12games.com, and if you're interested in his style of development, check out the dwarf fortress dev site located here: Bay12games.com)

Yeah, this post contained alot of boring devtalk, but i don't want to captivate you with alot of fancy flufftalk without having a solid underlying plan, because hype makes people really interested there and then, but just attracts gullible visionaries that never stay with your mod instead of serious and realistic developers.

My final idea of the game would be this:
You're an android fighting a long lost battle for human interests. The humans are all dead due to huge android-wars all over the globe. The only thing left is cold, calculating lumps of steel and plastic that continue their dead makers' struggle.
The game is played in a highly tactical way. You spawn together with two or three squadmates and a squad leader. Communication is done via an easy-to-use voicemenu and is absolutely crucial. Your objective is to capture a point located at the center of the map or exhaust the enemy reinforcements. You allways spawn together with your squad, and if you die you have to wait for your whole squad to be wiped out to respawn. If an android strays too far from its SL it's deemed a rouge and shut down, this forces players to work together. (if griefers try to exploit the system, we'll have to include some sort of kick/ban system voted internally in the squad, this is not a problem if the server has a good admin).

So, mr. so called "Posessed", even your name has a typo in it, why are we supposed to take you seriously? What are you bringing to the table?

I have several years of mapping experience with the source engine and even more years of making concept art. I've also experimented in making sound-effects and music for a couple of years.
I won't let the team down, and once i start something i like seeing it finished.

So yeah.
What do you guys think?

I'm all for robots
Just not so big fan of Source If you change the engine i might help you coding wise.Your idea to start with a few features should work well.

On a serious note, why would robots need iron sights?

On a side note: don't release patches too often. Players dislike it if they have to download a patch every week.

Posessed wrote: Realistic ...robot shooter

WTF?

Posessed wrote:
But what kind of mod does the source engine lack? Red orchestra was my inspiration as i decided on making a realistic mod for the source engine. Furthermore i decided i wanted to do a highly squad-based mod that focused on cooperation and teamwork.

Source is lacking in 'realistic' squad based mods? If you say so

That's the cheap comments about your pitch out of the way, the rest sounds very savvy and commendable Your first priority is going to have to be catching the interest of a good coder though - without a commited coder a Source mod isn't going anywhere. That engine needs needs someone with experience to tame it's tangled and unforgiving archetecture.

@Hanzie - depends how you do it. If you have a good autoupdate system and don't change art assets often, code updates can be downloaded very painlessly. Even more so if you tell people that it is in beta and that accepting small regular updates are a requirement of being a beta tester. Lets you iterate the design very frequently. Once you have an official stable release you slow it down, or fork into a stable for the public and a new beta for your small but dedicated beta crew

Yeah, i really want to do the mod in another engine than source, but i have no experience at all with other engines.
Being a concept artist and a musician i guess it wouldn't pose a problem to work in for example the unreal 3 engine, but i'd have to re-learn mapping.
If you want to recommend me another engine to work with I'm more than open to suggestions.

Edited by: Theater

It might be worth finding a coder who you feel you can trust and work well with, and then use whatever engine they want to use. I may be biased about how important coders are, being a coder myself, but anyone who has completed a mod will agree that you need a coder around if you want to anything more than a map pack using existing AI and stock weapons/items. You can make a mod without new code, but it won't be a total conversion.

The other option is to consider learning some simple coding yourself. That worked out for Alex with Killing Floor (a UT2k4 mod if you aren't familiar with it) - he managed to learn the basics of UnrealScript, just enough to get a demo up and running. Then several coders (myself and others) have joined up over the years to tackle the more complex problems. Doing it this way breaks the vicious circle - I'm not the only coder who is very cautious of joining a mod in the concept stage, but without some code it's very hard to get past the concept stage. Learning a bit of coding gets you out of this trap, and also has the long-term benefit of making it easier to discuss technical issues later when a dedicated coder joins you.

I've done the same, the other way round. I'm a coder, but I know how to throw together a simple map, and can make box-art characters and objects with ugly animation, just enough to get something up and running if I don't have a specialist around at the time. No-one will master all aspects of modding, but it's a smart move to learn a bit about everything, and a lot about one thing. Jack of all trades, master of one if you like

So, disclaimer time, it might not work for you, but it definitely did for Alex with Killing Floor. Unreal seems to be the best bet for the 'hack something together now, find someone else to polish it later' approach. There may be others, but I don't have enough experience to comment on those. I do know that Source will never be a good choice for a non-coder to try coding on though.

So you think i should use unreal 3?
I totally agree with you on the fact that good coders form the foundation of a good modding team.
Maybe i should pick up on some unreal-script then. I've never coded before, but i might as well have a go.

You'll have to decide for yourself. I'll be honest, the UT community isn't the largest out there, which concerns some people, but the engine has a lot of strong points, and BeyondUnreal has a forum where a lot of very experienced UT modders post, so help is out there. The Unreal engines have served me well for a very long time now, so maybe they'll work out for you, too. If you've got some time to try the engine, it can't hurt to try it

@Gibberstein, your right about the auto updates. I was referring to visiting a site to manually download a patch. But your right.
Btw your posts in this topic are very valuable for people who are are just starting (and) recruiting a team. Just want to say thanks for that.
Hopefully more people will read this.

@Posessed:
Try making a design document with features and then go check around the different engines to find the one that fits you best.
You could then prioritize the features and make a selection. For example if you prefer the mod-a-bility of an engine over graphics.
Or if you plan to recruit a coder do as Gibberstein says.

You said that you can work with Hammer. There are engines out there who also use a similar mapping-system/pipeline like Quake 3. There are several (graphically) improved versions of this engine available. This even gives you a bonus to be a stand alone project and you already know how to map.
I'm not saying that you should use the Quake 3 engine or anything that is up to you. Just saying that here is more then Source and UT out there. Take a good look around

The most important thing would be that the engine supports multiplayer, and is highly customizable.
I don't care about graphics at all, because my computer sucks.

I'd be really grateful if you guys want to help me choose engine.
One engine I'd really want to use is frostbite, but that's not released for PC, and i don't know if it'd work to mod it for my PS.

Edited by: Theater

Try making a list with features per milestone and post it. I'm sure you will get some feedback.

Edited by: Hanzie

Early, early pre alpha stage.
BASIC ARC
Milestone one:

• Making players alot less damage resistant.
• Adjusting the speed, stamina and jumping height of players to a more realistic setting.

Additions

Um yea dont want to break up your enthusiasm but what engine did you decide on?

What kind of levels do you want? Indoor or large outdoor?

On the engine:
Unreal3- No. The editor hates my computer.
Source - Meh, if i find a good coder. I'm almost married to the hammer editor.
Goldsrc - I don't know, my current steam account doesn't have any goldsrc games and it's a really old engine.

I've been looking at alternative engines such as this one:
Forums.facepunchstudios.com (horrible thread)
And this one:
Moddb.com
(none of which are released yet)
And i don't really know.
You guys help me out here.

On the levels:
Think counterstrike meets a small red orchestra. Keep in mind that the teams are often divided into multiple squads and that they shouldn't all be clumped together in a tight hallway or whatever. Medium sized urban battlezones with torn-up roads with craters for cover. Cover is an essential part of the game, and the squad should be able to stay together whilst keeping their heads down.
I've thought of adding "defence" maps as well, letting the squads operate things like large ground-defense turrets and whatnot, but let's just focus on the basics for now

Since the "story" revolves around a conflict waging for quite some time i would suggest trenches

Edited by: N0dachi