GoldSrc vs. Source Thread

I am seeking out information from some of the older modders who have worked with the GoldSrc engine. The biggest question is what are the engine limitations.

You'll asking for a very long list. In some ways limitations are a good thing though: they force you to get creative.

256 color textures
4000~ poly / models
lowres textures like 128x128 or 256x256
not so big maps

The best thing in goldsource is the atmoshere, if youre creative you can do very cool things.

the max texture size is 512x512

technicly all those limits (except map size, thas prolly a bsp limit) are hardware limits
you could use a 1 milion poly model if you want, engine is just not optimized enough to handle that correctly and crashes

Dark_Raver9 wrote: technicly all those limits (except map size, thas prolly a bsp limit) are hardware limits
you could use a 1 milion poly model if you want, engine is just not optimized enough to handle that correctly and crashes

You can't compile models with a million polys in Source, I doubt GoldSource is any better. There are limits in the engine, not the hardware.

well then it sounds like they putted up limits themselfs
afaik, there are limits because its not designed for it or so and then they put up those limits to play it safe

PS: i was overdoing it with the million :p

Yes and no. Some limits are given by programming languages. So for example if for optimization ( space ) reasons you use only short to store vertices in your meshes then you are limited to roughly 32k vertices which is roughly 8k triangles ( vertices div by four since most vertices are shared by 4 faces or more ). Go above and you get a mess. And using short instead of int already consumes half the amount of space. So chances are high they used many such tricks. Even Unreal had them ( vertex positions are encoded in a funny way in an unsigned in which is a packing of 96 bits into 32 bits )

I think UE3 got rid of that old annoyance though. I seem to recall we were importing meshes into the hundreds of thousand polygons when I was doing my commercial work, just for shits and giggles.

Sound can be cheated by using an OGG player lib and playing an OGG alongside the game. At last many mods did use this trick ( although using MP3... why is beyond me :/ )

whats the problem with MP3?
i mean, why is it beyond you :p
OGG is open source maybe?

It's relatively inefficient in terms of memory use and file size compared to an OGG file of similar quality.

ambershee wrote: It's relatively inefficient in terms of memory use and file size compared to an OGG file of similar quality.

well mp3 can be the same size as ogg too
oh well, i would use ogg all the time but cant play them on my (hardware) mp3 player and i cant be assed to reconvert them every time :p

Dark_Raver9 wrote:

ambershee wrote: It's relatively inefficient in terms of memory use and file size compared to an OGG file of similar quality.

well mp3 can be the same size as ogg too

To reiterate ambershee slightly differently, if you take an .ogg and an .mp3 of similar file size, the .ogg will sound better. Note the emphasis I've added to the quote.

guess i cant beat you :p
oh well xD the times i used ogg for listening it was horrbile, prolly crappy mp3 player for my ngageqd tough(no comments, i like it >.> :p)

I've got a cheap MP3 player and it plays OGGs well... And to add something else. MP3 compression filters out what the "average" person can not hear. If though your hearing is either slightly shifted or enlarged ( as mine ) then you hear the filtering as either shattering noise in high pitch sound or distorted bass. OGG uses a similar technique but filters way outside the hearing range so even with non-average hearing it takes a rather low compression to end up with hearable artifacts. So to make an sound file which I can't distinquish anymore from the original WAV it takes on OGG roughly 3M but on MP3 8M. Means over double as much sound data with same quality and less processing overhead.

ok you got me allready >.> i surrender :p
anyway, what i was saying that i got this free oggplayer software for on the ngage qd, but it allways converts to mono in a rather crappy way + speakers = crap but ok :p
aaah MP3 Vs. OGG allways a lovely discussion xD
hey dragonlord, why is mp3 then the more common standard (pretty curious actualy and no its not a pun against you or so )

AFAIK two reasons:

1) MP3 is older, so had time to establish a userbase long before .ogg was finished.

2) .ogg is an open standard and it's maintainers refuse to have anything to do with all that DRM crap that big companies have an insane fetish for Thus big companies are reluctant to back it

Edited by: Gibberstein

Bit late but I thought I'd add a little bit of input ^^.

GoldSrc:-
As stated before has much lower polygon limits and texture limits.
Several textures can be applied to one model though, so 4x diffuse maps at 512*512 would equate to 1024 mapping size at little cost to framerates.
It doesn't support normal maps, specular maps or opacity/alpha maps. You can use a transparency colour in the 256 colour pallete but that comes at a cost of having to program it in and also will alias any edges (nice jagged edges).
It can support an HDRI bloom effect, but this has to be programmed in.
Doesn't support close to the physics of HL2. Things fall and break, thats about it. No ragdolls.
Doesn't support vertex weighting with bones (which HL2 does). Movement wont be as transitioned at joints.
Sprites are purely 2D, using a face-camera perspective. Conversely in Source, transparent maps can be applied to particles to create fuller visual effects.
Particles are very limited. Usually just squares of colour or sprite emmitters.
Levels are significantly smaller. Mods like Half-Life Rally got around this though by making the models smaller. For example, the characters being to a scale of *0.5 means the level space can be effectively doubled.
Models are easier to import in. Textures, animations and reference objects are contained in one (or two if you use T.mdl formats) files in one directory. Unlike Source's messy way of stuffing everything everywhere.
Level textures are contained in packages called WADs, convenient to keep thing organised.

Their are HUGE differences between them, and of course Source is better.
But Golden source isn't to say bad. Source is a completely new engine.
Golden source is a HEAVILY modded version of the old Qauke Engine, which was released 1996.
Where as Source was released 2004. As well as lower sound rate, polygon count it is a lot harder to mod.

But its Still great!!!!

Bigglesworth wrote: Source is a completely new engine.

WRONG!
source contains aloooot of code from goldsrouce and thus quake 1 to
dont know how much but it is alot

yep here is it's anscestry family tree right here: En.wikipedia.org

Dark_Raver9 wrote:

Bigglesworth wrote: Source is a completely new engine.

WRONG!
source contains aloooot of code from goldsrouce and thus quake 1 to
dont know how much but it is alot

Its originally based from goldsrc which was based on quake but by now with all the features added or recoded I'd imagine theres very little that remained the same.

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Midnitte wrote: theres very little that remained the same.

nope, the quake air control and player physics is still there, even the old quake null texture. OH NO WHEN I SAY PHYSICS THAT MUST MEAN THE ROLIN BARELS AND CRATES AND RAGDOOLS THERE FORE I AM WRONG AM I RIGHT!

Edited by: leilei

leilei wrote:

Midnitte wrote: theres very little that remained the same.

nope, the quake air control and player physics is still there, even the old quake null texture. OH NO WHEN I SAY PHYSICS THAT MUST MEAN THE ROLIN BARELS AND CRATES AND RAGDOOLS THERE FORE I AM WRONG AM I RIGHT!

told you so midnitte, most modders know this, just accept it :p source is a quake deritative (its even on the chart)