The Debating Society
Hobbies & Interests
A place where ModDB members can debate civilly, and learn from each other's views.
As one could guess after a presidential campaign built on rhetoric against the establishment. Donald Trump, upon being inaugurated the 45th president of the United States, has declared a state of war on the political ruling class.
His speech reflected the discontent and anger of the populace toward a government that had forsaken them. The "forgotten men and women" permeated the jest of the 45th Presidents inaugural speech. Talk of a distopian society thanks to a belligerent government. A nation that had lost it's wealth, heart, it's very soul.
There was no words on the former leadership, or any comments of disdain to his predecessor. But rather a all out attack on the entirety of the ruling class in Washington D.C. that Trump perceived, as trying to undermine the American people. Something that would undoubtedly put both sides of the spectrum in D.C. on edge.
The promise that the 45th President has made, is one of returning power to the people. His speech also reflected spiritual faith, something previous presidents had been either too politically correct to bring up or simply left to the side.
It was not a speech of condemnation, it was a speech of empowerment. A call of unity for all citizens too not only take back their country, but take back their government as well. Overall his speech not only reflected a change of focus for the country, but a drastic shift in policy that now put "America" first and foremost. Both in world affairs and domestic policy. He also hinted how he'd take relationships with other countries by respecting that they have their own interests as well. Something only Patriots would grasp.
The question is, could such a promise be kept.
Feel free to discuss what you think as you wish.
Well, it would appear change most certainly is coming.
And here I was told Obamas changes would be radical...
We shall see, boy.
Remember that during the election of 1932 FDR promised to bring back power to the states from the federal government, and we all know how that turned out...
I seriously doubt any significant change to the structure of the power politics of D.C. will change, at most merely some of the players of the game...
That's the safe bet.
But we live in a era with new technology and movements. Most especially with the development of the world wide web, the ability to control media and information has fallen more into the citizens control. Part of what helped Trump get elected despite the political and financial backing of the elites for Clinton in Washington.
The war on the mind plays a key role in change. That said, while highly unlikely that Trump will turn D.C. upside down in the next 4 years. At the very least he can pave the way during this time for the real changes to be possible.
Right now regulations, people in office, and other factors are still in the way of a real purge in the establishment. If Trump intends to keep his promise, he's going to have to fight tooth and nail to "rig the game" in the voters favor.
An end to career politicians with term limits would be a good start.
"But we live in a era with new technology and movements. Most especially with the development of the world wide web, the ability to control media and information has fallen more into the citizens control."
Which is all well and good, but on the flip side, it has never in human history, been so easy to spread misinformation and fake news as it is right now, anyone with a good headline that plays on peoples political identity and/or personal presumptions, and with enough followers on social media can start an avalanche of fake news sharing. Whether they intend to lie, troll or have been mislead themselves, people gobble it like candy if it fits what they personally believe/want to believe.
The worldview you present can only be a definitive positive once critical thinking regarding "Citizen news" becomes part of our culture.
That is true to a degree.
But critical thinking is not everyone's strongsuit. To ask for a culture so fond of it, is to ask for a utopia. We don't believe in utopias. Because if the majority of "enlightened" countries these days were full of critical thinkers, we'd have solved world hunger and poverty by now.
We do however have enough people that take their time to make real change, that's what matters. Not everything that's going to get them in power will be "brutally honest". That's frankly asking the impossible. Likewise, human bias prevents critical thinking from ever fully taking the lead. We have movements in response to injustice, this is how our kind operates.
You give that movement a honest goal and master it like a captain his ship on the high seas. You'll see good things done. But you have to realize that once the goal is reached you need to step down from your command. Media, internet, modern communications. These are tools to help a Captain and his crew master the high seas during our era. They can be used for ill or good. In the end it merely depends on the character of those they're appealing to in their movement.
Trump appealed to the good and bad, as did Clinton. The radical left and the radical right both have their dishonest bunch. I'd be fooling myself however to believe the center doesn't ever lie for the "greater good" as well.
Sometimes, to tell the truth does more harm than it ever does right. Am I advocating lying? Look at it from this perspective. Has the world ever been black and white? I know this for certain, had Clinton won nothing would've changed in Washington at all. It would've most certainly been the same old status quo. The question is will Donald be the Molotov cocktail people like me have been hoping for? We shall see.
"Not everything that's going to get them in power will be "brutally honest". That's frankly asking the impossible.
"Sometimes, to tell the truth does more harm than it ever does right. Am I advocating lying? Look at it from this perspective. Has the world ever been black and white?"
Yet all I get from arguing with conservatives or pro-Trump supporters are "LIBERAL BIASED MEDIA CAN'T BE TRUSTED." and then they go to Fox news, some strongly conservative YT channels and or facebook/Twitter groups and gobble up everything as absolute truth.
Its the most hypocritical argument out there to cry about a supposedly liberal media. While a lot of the criticism of the media in the US is very much justified, it as come to the point where Trump can pretend to be a war with the Media, while he is really at war with Facts, and creating a dangerous precedence for complete collective factual disillusionment in politics.
That's because the mainstream media can no longer tell the difference between lying for the good of the country, and lying for the good of their wallet. They've sold out the country for the sake of identity politics and funding for a insidious agenda. Now as to what that agenda is I know you're intelligent and I know you can guess it without me hinting. The simple fact is even the bad things they do now are for the wrong reasons. When one says, "they can't be trusted" is it to do with honesty? Or the fact what they're doing does NOT have OUR best interests in mind.
Mmm, same facts that said there was WMD's in Iraq after 9/11? I recall the media getting behind that message and the result was nearly 5000 U.S. soldiers dead and another over 100,000 Iraqis no longer attending their local mosques. With no WMD's and then a 10 year long *as well as incredibly expensive* occupation resulting in another conflict that would nullify all the gains we'd made. The best interests of my country were not in mind when Saddam fell. And the invasion most certainly had nothing to do with getting Bin Laden. The man was in Pakistan living in his own private little mansion courtesy of that nation's government.
Ultimately I blame the lack of trust for the "politicization" of every fact that comes along, to the point it's twisted to a agenda and ends up a half truth. Is the mainstream media actually presenting facts? Or merely venomously spouting their agenda to the heavens like a cultist to the dark gods?
"Something only Patriots would grasp."
Makes one feel so inspired to engage in a debate, when its already established that anyone that disagrees are wrong/misguided because they are intellectually/culturally and spiritually incapable of understanding your perspective.
Yes, because these days people who are "patriotic" are often viewed as either
A) Antagonists
B) Backwards
C) Cancerous
The common consensus among millennials is that if you love your country, and seek to look out for it's interests first and foremost. Is that you're a detriment to the world and will do the unspeakable to see change. Comparisons to the Third Reich and insults follow soon after such an assessment is made.
I stick to my comment however, in the sense that if you truly understood it, you'd be a patriot yourself. It's impossible to understand it and not be a patriot.
That is merely my view of it.
"Yes, because these days people who are "patriotic" are often viewed as either
A) Antagonists
B) Backwards
C) Cancerous"
That's because there are a lot of people that hide behind patriotism as an excuse to justify their perspective. That kind of people ARE very often antagonists, backwards or cancerous. The latter is true when it comes to real patriotism.
I have no quarrel, and I don't think most people have any quarrel with real patriots. Problem is that most so called "patriots" use patriotism as an excuse to justify their beliefs, but that is not what patriotism is in my book, nor should it be, because it dilutes any and all patriotic causes.
While your are entitled to your view on this, I hope it is not lost on you that you yourself are contributing to this by citing patriotism as it were an argument to prove that you are right. Which you are arguably doing by claiming that if I am not a patriot I won't understand your perspective.
"The common consensus among millennials is that if you love your country, and seek to look out for it's interests first and foremost. Is that you're a detriment to the world and will do the unspeakable to see change. Comparisons to the Third Reich and insults follow soon after such an assessment is made."
First of all, millennials are a stupid stereotype. The way millennials are described/generalized can be found throughout history to have been said of almost EVERY GENERATION. Real records in ancient Greece describe the "current generations" as lazy nobody's that cry about everything.
Second, if you identify as alt-right(Which you often seem/appear to do), why are you surprised and/or upset about the comparison? While I doubt very much you are a Nazi or even close to it, its naive to think that those elements of the alt-right that are close to it are simply a minority.
Forgive me for being presumptuous, but I get the sense you wouldn't hesitate to call out most of the alt-left as mostly SJWs or feminazis (An ironic name).
There are a lot of people who use social justice, equality, and tolerance to justify the most absurd of national pursuits. Such pursuits like we've seen in Europe to where they've sold the very soul of their nations in the name of being fair to people that could never hope to understand their way of life and assimilate. Or worse yet, come to hate their own cultural history and shame anyone who shows a ounce of pride for their people...
Both sides of the coin have their detriments. The question is are you willing to admit that patriotism is needed to a degree for the sake of both national and domestic security. Do you love your country? Do you want your culture preserved? Do you wish for your people's traditions to be carried on after you are dead? Are you willing to defend those things with both your vote and if necessary your life?
These are all legitimate questions. I'll confess that there are cancerous people out there operating under the guise of patriotism. That doesn't mean the idea itself is an enemy of the nation. We have cancerous athiests and christians. Does that mean their points of view are entirely absurd? No, it does not. Some people reject the idea of a higher power, some embrace it. It's the ones who want to kill and ostracize you for thinking differently you need to watch out for.
I don't believe you hate your country, I just think you don't fully grasp the concept of why protecting not only it's borders but identity is important. Of course you're free to prove me wrong any time.
Ok, so old farts like stereotyping and hoping youth like myself catch on. That doesn't change the fact we have kids now demanding safe spaces on college campuses all because they're "offended" by something they can't control nor should.
As for the alt right I do agree there is a significant Nazi element to it. At least in the sense of white nationalism and sexism. Ive seen it myself plenty of times online but the aspects of the alt right I do identify with is "the alternative media". Because they actually said the things the mainstream media refused too.
I'll surprise you and call at least half the alt right as edgy and prejudiced.