why doesn't fog warriors cast? Thread - Dominions 3: The Awakening

hey guys, i'm in sp playing eriu and i've got a tuatha beefed to A5 (A4+helm). i script him to cast fog warriors but on more than one ocassion, he just does some soothing song or whatever. he's already got the air gems in his pocket. any ideas why this is so and how to fix it? thanks.

Edited by: Caldius

First obvious question is, does he have the gems needed to cast the spell?

If he has it might be the AI deciding on not worth spending any gems in case the opponent is seen as much weaker.

If you post the turn file I can give you the exact reason, otherwise I can only list the most typical possibilites.

1 - The enemy force was very weak, which triggered the "may not use gems in this battle" switch, which is designed to stop gems being wasted in battles that are walkovers. This post contains more details on this (although forewarning that precise details of the mechanics behind this are likely to be too complicated for new players)
2 - The mage didn't have the required number of gems.
3 - The mage didn't have the required path level to cast the spell.

Hard to give much more than that unless you provide more details (or ideally post the save file). But I have never seen a mage go off-script and refuse to cast a spell without a reason (don't listen to claims to the contrary), as the issue is always that players understandably don't know all the possible reasons (why a mage might refuse to cast a scripted spell)

Edited by: Calahan.

He's got a cold. Can't speak the words.

based on what everyone is saying, i believe that maer is right.

but the second most likely explanation offered would be calahan's too weak don't use gems. it's the only possibility as 2 and 3 are out.

don't have the turn file but if i do come across such a situation again i'll send it to you, cal.

Bah, what does Calahan know?

Good question. What DO you know Calahan?

Speak up! Speak up!

*I'm getting my paranoia meds*

Caldius wrote: based on what everyone is saying, i believe that maer is right.

but the second most likely explanation offered would be calahan's too weak don't use gems. it's the only possibility as 2 and 3 are out.

don't have the turn file but if i do come across such a situation again i'll send it to you, cal.

Was this against the AI or from a MP game? If my reading of iFRNA's input (in that linked thread) is correct, then this is probably more likely to happen against the AI because the AI is less likely to turn up with any single commander that the game engine considers "scary". (as it only takes one "scary" enemy commander to allow gem use).

If you still had the turn file then this would be easy to confirm as the log has a clear entry regarding this. As you say though, if it happens again, keep the turn file, and post if you need it checked.

--------------------------

Maerlande wrote: Bah, what does Calahan know?

Isn't all knowledge relative? Therefore I either know nothing, or I know everything.

Soyweiser wrote: Speak up! Speak up!

I can't speak. I can only communicate by playing notes on my distaff.

Edited by: Calahan.

Calahan. wrote: 1 - The enemy force was very weak, which triggered the "may not use gems in this battle" switch, which is designed to stop gems being wasted in battles that are walkovers. This post contains more details on this (although forewarning that precise details of the mechanics behind this are likely to be too complicated for new players)
2 - The mage didn't have the required number of gems.
3 - The mage didn't have the required path level to cast the spell.

In addition to these 3 from Calahan, I would mention "4 - A suitable target for the spell was not in range." (I realise this does not apply to Fog Warriors/Battlefield Enchantment, but it does to others.) As a dumb newb, I have scripted an "attack" spell as my first, and not appreciate that the enemy was beyond range, at least initially, and failed to understand why it didn't get cast. (Worse, of course, is that the mage would then cast something else, often helping himself to his gems.) I have now learnt to look closely at spells' range plus mage's position at the outset. You might want to self-buff (preferably in another gem path), or select only longest range spells first, or pass, or place mage up-front, etc., for a couple turns so that enemy gets closer.

Yes, you are right JonBrave. The reply of mine that you quoted was specific to Fog Warriors, but there are other reasons why a mage will not cast a scripted spell.

You mentioned range and lack of suitable (valid) targets as one, although strictly they are two separate things. Another common one as well is friendly fire concerns, since your mages tend to have a strong dislike of intentionally killing their own troops, and so they will refuse to cast spells that will knowingly damage their own troops.

Although note that I did say intentionally, because they have no problems doing it accidentally

Edited by: Calahan.

great info. any idea:
1. how many squares are there in the army setup box?
2. from your centre to the enemy's centre, how many squares are there?

Caldius wrote: great info. any idea:
1. how many squares are there in the army setup box?
2. from your centre to the enemy's centre, how many squares are there?

1 - The army setup grid is 18x18 IIRC. So 324 squares.
2 - Attackers centre is 14,15. Defenders centre is 46,15. So a range of 32 is needed to hit one from the other.

More info on battlefield coordinates can be found here Battlefield Coordinates

You can also check other Dom stuff like this out at the (slowly getting more functional, and will be ported here at some point in the future) mechanics index at Dom3mods. Game Mechanics Index

Edited by: Calahan.

Calahan. wrote:
2 - Attackers centre is 14,15. Defenders centre is 46,15. So a range of 32 is needed to hit one from the other.

As I discovered after a while! Quite a lot of spells turned out to have a range of, say, 25. Even up to 30 is tricky, when, perhaps, you positioned your mages a bit back; or, your opponent may be hanging back... When I didn't look closely at the range and consider it for early spells, they were being out of range.

But, it gets worse... Unless I misunderstood a reply I got somewhere on Shrapnel recently (may try to locate it: Forum.shrapnelgames.com; and also several posts in your Z7.invisionfree.com), I think the battlefied grows including separation distance in some proportion to troop numbers. So in a large battle, you'll start more than 32 apart! Or, did I get that wrong....?

Edited by: JonBrave

JonBrave wrote: But, it gets worse... Unless I misunderstood a reply I got somewhere on Shrapnel recently (may try to locate it), I think the battlefied grows including separation distance in some proportion to troop numbers. So in a large battle, you'll start more than 32 apart! Or, did I get that wrong....?

Yes and No and Unknown.

Basically there are enough reliable players who have said when you get insane amounts of troops on the battlefield, such as with MA/LA Ermor of a Maenad spawning Pangaea, then the size of the battlefield increases, or appears to increase, as a result. I've not tested this myself though, and it's unclear which of the following is actually happening (if any)

1 - The size of the battlefield increases, and the distance between the default positions (14,15 and 26,15) increases.
2 - The size of the battlefield increases, but the distance between the default positions remains the same, and it is just the width that increases.
3 - The size of the battlefield stays exactly the same, but units are allowed to start outside, and move around outside, the battlefield grid.

If I was a betting man, I'd put my money on 3. As that is very Dom-like, and it would fit the issue you get with units walking around the side of fort walls during fort storms if there are a high number of units involved on the storming side.

that's why i always like thunder strike. you surely can reach them with a range of 100.
regardless of the advice to summon storm power and aiming crap, i always cast it immediately on the first turn. 10 of them going off immediately makes a whole difference compared to one or two turns later. turn two onwards is orb lightning, orb lightning, orb lightning, orb lightning.

Caldius wrote: that's why i always like thunder strike. you surely can reach them with a range of 100.
regardless of the advice to summon storm power and aiming crap, i always cast it immediately on the first turn. 10 of them going off immediately makes a whole difference compared to one or two turns later. turn two onwards is orb lightning, orb lightning, orb lightning, orb lightning.

Its often the case that damage now is better than damage later. Or maybe better to say dead enemes now is better than dead enemies later

But another thing to keep in mind is whether or not that actually matters in the given battle. As if you are using hold and attack, and your enemy doing the same, then it's unlikely to make a difference if the enemy troops are hit on round 2 or round 3 of battle, and if you used round 1 to reduce your mage's fatigue, either with a path boosting spell or reinvig spell, then the difference becomes that your mage has less fatigue compared to if the enemies died on turn 1.

Of course lots of various factors involved here, and there will be many many times when you want maximum damage output on round 1 above all else. Which is one of the reasons the game is so rich. But just keep in mind that killing enemies asap isn't always the optimum choice.
.

And two FYI's to any new players reading.

- Storm Power is the odd one out of the path boosting spells in that it requires a Storm to be present (either from casting it, or from item like Staff of Storms). Without a Storm this spell won't be cast.
- Orb Lightning has a pretty low range of 15. This spell, if you take out spells that require gems, is one of the most commonly complained about spells in the "why won't my mage cast this spell?" category. Since players look at the spell stats, see nice AN damage, low fatigue, scaling number of effects, and picture their Air mages zapping the enemy with endless lightning. But they always miss the crucial detail of the 15 range. The devil is always in the detail

Edited by: Calahan.

Caldius wrote: that's why i always like thunder strike. you surely can reach them with a range of 100.
regardless of the advice to summon storm power and aiming crap, i always cast it immediately on the first turn. 10 of them going off immediately makes a whole difference compared to one or two turns later. turn two onwards is orb lightning, orb lightning, orb lightning, orb lightning.

You know. There are some very nifty tricks to completely mess that sort of thing up. Maybe we'll play someday and I"ll remember this quote

But I'm with Calahan. It's situational. If you are fighting an army of 2000 troops, 10 TS early is far less usefull than 3 times as many total. Versus a small tightly packed army your method is very solid. Another thing to consider is that if I expect TS spam I make many small squads scattered all over. If your precision is poor you will mostly miss, fatigue out, and do little. In other words, when you watch how your opponent scripts you'll have a solid feel for which way to go. So I highly recommend you probe your opponent when expecting powerful stuff like TS spam. A small sacrificial army large enough to live 5 turns and read his script is totally worth it.

Also, TS capable magi can put up a single air elemental first cast. It's really amazing how much a big ethereal trampler ruins the best scripts of your opponent and let your TS casters blast in peace. I used that with paired squads of eagle kings to kill incredible amounts of stuff including grendelkins and other scs.

Edited by: Maerlande