Post news RSS Edain Mod 4.5 Siege

In patch 4.5 we will focus on the theme of siege in this version. We've already planned to improve the gaming experience in this regard and intend to achieve this great goal with the upcoming patch. But this is only on of many topics that we try to improve with this patch. In this update, we will present you some elements of the upcoming patch and we want to explain our intentions.

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Edain Mod 4.5 Siege

Greetings, companions of Edain!


The moment has come for us to share our plans for the upcoming Patch 4.5 with you. As you might have guessed from some of our previously published updates, siege gameplay will be a major focus this time around.

We've been planning major improvements in this area for a while now, and with the comib patch we're finally ready to tackle this issue in a big way. Not all changes in 4.5 are concerned with sieges - apart from the array of bug fixes and balance improvements every new version brings, you can expect profound changes to another core gameplay system which we will be presenting at a later date - but siege is certainly a major focus.

In this update, we will showcase many new additions to sieges and explain our intentions behind the most important gameplay changes.

SIEGE


Our primary goal was making sieges more fun and challenging to play both for the attacker and the defender. To that end, we have greatly expanded the strategic siege arsenal of most factions to bring more options and diversity into the game. Factions that used to lack unique and interesting siege weapons or defensive structures will now have their own tools for siege battles. Just like field battles, we wanted to allow players to approach sieges with different strategies: Do you go over the walls, through the gate or even try to raze the walls entirely?

Defensive structures will in turn be more specialized and focussed on beating back different types of attacks. It should no longer be possible to simply plop down a bunch of towers and be safe from everything. That way, we want to enable more strategic planning and interactivity on both sides as attacker and defender will each have to try to counter the other side's approach - and will have more ways to do so.

Siege Weapons

There will be many more siege weapons in Patch 4.5, with a particular focus on giving every faction at least one completely unique tool for sieging enemy castles.

In addition to the ram and the catapult, Gondor will gain access to the Siege Shield that protects allies behind it from enemy ranged damage:


This siege shield is supposed to emphasize the heavily armored status of Gondorian armies and allows you to march on a fortified position without getting decimated by its towers and archers.

Rohan is now supported by mobile and aggressive siege weapons that are especially beneficial in the early game: The Petardiers and Hay Carts.


The Dwarves will now have access to the Earth Hammer with all three of the Dwarven Realms. It will be remodeled into a medium-ranged siege weapon. While its range will be lower than that of a catapult, the Earth Hammer will serve as a kind of disrupter of enemy buildings and defense facilities because it is able to temporarily shut them down with each attack.

Additionally, the Dwarves will be able to recruit mine workers to build siege tunnels. This will be a completely stationary siege structure from which workers will periodically tunnel towards enemy structures to make them collapse. Their lack of mobility but great destructive power makes the siege tunnels a perfect fit for the Dwarves and allows them to bring down even enemy walls which could withstand regular rams and trebuchets.


Rivendell already has access to the catapult, the Dunedain ram and the Lorekeepers of Stone, but we have plans for another siege weapon in the future.

Lothlorien will be able to recruit melee Ents that are cheaper and more mobile than regular Ents. In exchange, they can't throw stones and are not as effective against enemy units. But they do allow you to attack enemy fortifications more quickly, filling a similiar role as rams do for other factions.

Angmar will now field Siege Trolls that may build three different siege weapons directly on the battlefield: A Troll Sling, a Battering Ram and a Siege Tower. Much like the Thrallmasters, this emphasizes Angmar's flexibility to react quickly to new situations. It also gives the faction access to Siege Towers which could not be built inside the fortress itself because they would be too tall to get out of the gate. In the field, however, they can easily be constructed, adding another faction besides Mordor and Isengart into the game that siege tools to storm a castle's walls.


Isengard and Mordor already have a wide range of different siege weapons, among them completely unique machines like Grond or the mines. We didn't see the need to further increase their arsenal.

Defense Facilities

In Edain 4.5, every castle will have at least four different defensive structures, at least one of them unique and exclusive to its faction. We wanted to move away from defining factions like Rohan by their small amount of defensive structures - this just makes them less interesting to play in siege battles, and there are other ways to ensure that factions like the Dwarves and Gondor still feel like better builders than Rohan.

At the same time we extended the building options on the smaller defense buildplots found in camps and the bases of factions without walls. Until now factions like Isengard and Mordor, could build only a single structure here, the sentry tower. Now, there will always be two structures to choose from.

Gondor now gains access to the Wall Crane which repairs nearby buildings and structures:


Rohan already has a unique defense upgrade, the Wall Banner. Its bonus will now last for 30 seconds after leaving its radius, much like statues work in Edain 4.0. In addition to the three existing defense facilities, Rohan now can build Onagers on the walls:


The Dwarves already had access to four different defense facilities. Among them we reworked and improved the Raven tower. Like statues and the Wall Banner, its bonus will now persist over time and and it has a larger area of effect. On top of that, we reworked its design:




In addition, the dwarves now make use of another defense mechanism: Boiling oil! The Dwarven stoneworker can now unlock oil vents for their fortress, which will be built at the gate walls, allowing them to pour down boiling oil on attackers:


Rivendell will gain the ability to build a Wall Catapult. Alongside the sentry tower, postern gate and mystic fountains, this gives them four different defensive options.


The faction of Lothlorien doesn't get new structures, but a new defensive power. Lorien players can now summon a Huorn permanently onto battlefield, barring the way for enemy units. This felt like a very fitting defensive measure for a faction so connected to nature.


Angmar gains access to cages that weaken nearby enemy units:


Isengard and Mordor don't have any castle walls, but as we mentioned before, we extended the building options on defensive buildplots for camps and bases without walls:


Gondor, Rohan, Rivendell and the Dwarves can build statues there, which will no longer be available on the regular build plots of camp maps anymore. By contrast, Angmar has access to cages that weaken nearby enemies, fulfilling the same role as wall cages.

Isengard's Warg Sentry has been moved from the regular buildplots to the defensive buildplots. This way, it no longer occupies a full plot and is easier to use. Mordor can build a Defense Banner that increases the production speed of nearby recruitment buildings, aiding the faction's ability to build up large armies.

Siege Mechanics

Along with a new siege mechanic and defense buildings come deeper gameplay changes. We had a couple of goals: Sieges should be fun and interesting to play. The attacker as well as the defender should have chances to turn arround the battle by playing well. Sieges shouldn't feel like "work" or a cumbersome duty at the end of the game - which on one hand means that castles shouldn't be TOO tough to crack, but on the other hand the defender shouldn't already have lost the moment he's been pushed back into his castle. After all, if that's the case, why bother playing out the siege at all?

Another important goal was that sieges shouldn't feel passive. On the one hand a couple of sentry towers shouldn't mean that the defender doesn't have to think about further defense any more because that simple line is already virtually impenetrable. He should also have to actively use his troops and react to a changing situation. On the other hand it wouldn't be very interesting either if the attacker could just stay safely out of the range of the castle and slowly but steadily reduce everything to a rubble with his catapults which the defender can't reach because they're staying safely inside the opposing army. We wanted a more dynamic siege in which both players constantly trade blows and armies clash on the walls, at the gate and in the castle itself.

Our first step was to give all siege units a more clearly defined role. Each siege weapon should provide unique and different ways to open attack paths into castle. Each defensive structure should defend against one specific attack type especially well. Wall catapults, for example, are especially effective in countering an attacking enemy's catapults due to their long range and high damage. In return they inflict less damage against troops and have a high minimum range, making them less practical if the enemy is approaching with rams and ladders to attack the fortress at point-blank. Here, towers show their strength: They now have a shorter range and thus work less well against attacks from afar, but they still remain a good means to punish at advancing infantry. In return they are now especially vulnerable against enemy siege weapons - bringing us back to siege catapults that are able to destroy towers from a safe range to clear the way for the attack.

However, catapults are not enough to flatten the fortress on their own. Troops atop walls are now considerably better protected from ranged attacks and walls are harder to destroy with regular siege weapons like trebuchets and rams. This should give special machines like siege towers a more important role and thus make attacks with troops more attractive than the passive catapult bombardment - they provide a faster way to storm walls. Certain special weapons are still able to destroy walls, among them Isengart's mines and the tunnel diggers of the Dwarves. This is once again meant to give those a special and unique role to make them more useful (breaching walls is now a special thing, not something even the cheapest weapons can do). It also emphasizes the gate as a special weakness of each fortress. Unlike the walls, it may be broken in by cheap rams but is also easier to defend because there are more defense build plots.

Furthermore, we have put in another batch of mechanics to encourage the attacker to storm the castle earlier. Siege weapons are now a little bit cheaper and available more quickly across the board. In return they cost a similiar amount of command points as regular troops - it shouldn't be possible anymore to just overwhelm a castle with 10 or 20 rams. In exchange, most of the defense facilities, especially towers, are a little weaker than before. In addition, many regular buildings are bit more vulnerable to regular units. These changes are not too drastic taken on their own, but come together to make camps and outposts as well as weakly defended castles more easy to capture - a large amount of siege weapons should mainly be necessary if the defender on his part has also put up a strong garrison and multiple defense facilities. This way, both sides are encouraged equally to actually to invest into the siege.

Moreover, buildings in the base now become more vulnerable to siege weapons if the citadel is destroyed - this also makes it more appealing to first storm the fortress and destroy its core instead of just bombarding it eternally from the outside.

Economy

Many factors playing into a siege: Besides siege weapons and defense facilities the economy is also an important part. If a castle isn't able to at least support a respectable garrison of defensive troops, the defender has already lost before the battle even begins - and then why play through the siege at all?

Naturally, the attacker will be superior, he's controlling a bigger part of the map after all - and because the defender in return has the home advantage in his forterss, that's only fair and right. Regardless we believe that the defender's disadvantage is currently too big. If he uses his limited number of economy buildings to unlock enough command points for a solid garrison, he gets set back in resource production even more than he already is anyway.

This is actually not the case in most other strategy games: In Age of Empires or Starcraft, for example, you don't have to decide between gathering resources and increasing your population limit because the building of houses/pylons happens independently from harvesting resources. We felt we we had created a double and unnecessarily severe downward spiral here as soon as one player starts to lose territory. This is a tricky balance: On the one hand the superior player should be rewarded for his victories, but on the other hand we believe that the inferior player should still have at least a base amount of resources and command points that gives him the chance to turn the tide if he plays his cards well. In the end this benefits both players as it creates more thrilling games that remain exciting until the last minute.

Resource structures inside the fortress will now have different upgrade chains from those outside. Structures within the castle get more powerful upgrades overall, but they're more expensive and less efficient for their cost. This makes them less attractive in the early game. We want to be careful not to make bunkering from the first minute the best strategy so there are no more battles for settlements. However, the castle should gain more and more prominence as the game goes on and become a more attractive target. It should produce enough that even a player who's been pushed back is still a threat. This way, the game's focus should steadily shift from smaller battles towards large sieges.

At the same time, economy structures can only get one upgrade instead of two. We found that players would usually just give each building the same upgrade twice instead of combining two different ones at levels two and three - which was intended to be the interesting aspect of two tiers of upgrades. A main reason for this was that the two economy upgrades had to multiply with each other, making them most effective when you take both. In addition, researching two upgrades for every single building was seen as unnecessary extra effort, which is why we decided to tone it down to one single choice that is in turn more meaningful.

External economy buildings now have the following upgrades:
* Small Pantry: Increases the command points by 150.
* Scouting Post: Doubles the hit points and triples sight radius (does not add a tower anymore).
* Additional Worker: Increases the production by 50%.
These upgrades cost 300 resources and take 45 seconds to research.

Internal economy buildings now have the following upgrades:
* Large Pantry: Increases the command points by 300.
* Sentinel: Doubles the hit points and adds a sentry tower.
* Additional Workers: Increases the production by 100%.
The upgrades cost 800 resources and take 210 seconds to research.

Another change is related to the Citadel. It now has a new upgrade that provides a large amount of command points, giving you a solid base value inside your castle so you don't have to dedicate too many internal resource structures just to be able to recruit any sort of garrison in the first place. Its high cost, however, prevents you from research it too early in the game. It is not meant to provide command points for a quick rush, but to give the defensive player a fighting chance later on (or upgrade the attacker's army from 1200 CP to the full 1800, giving you the points you need for a solid army of siege weapons all in one go).

Citadel-pantry: Increases the command points by 600
This upgrade costs 2000 resources and has one minute of research time.

Expect more changes in the future but we feel these changes will provide some much-needed fundamental improvements to the siege situation. None of them are set in stone, though, so of course we're looking forward to your feedback!

Comments  (0 - 50 of 73)
Argeomer
Argeomer

looking good

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Axel_Arphenduilin
Axel_Arphenduilin

1. The new Raven tower is so cool. I'm glad to see it more useful with its range increased.

2. I'm really happy that there is now a siege tower for Angmar. I wanted to propose that idea (much) earlier, but I thought no one would agree with me.

The only thing I find a bit odd is the removal of the sentry tower on external economy buildings. Shouldn't they get a chance of defending themselves, even if it is a light defense like that?

But, in conclusion, I LOVE the bigger emphasis on siege. That's what BFME 1 was all about, after all :)

P.S. This sounds way more formal than I wanted it to.

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Kmogon
Kmogon

I think that removing sentry tower from external buildings is nessesery. Firtly it makes buildings like dunedain camp or lindon tower more important as only those kind of buildings can fire now. Secondly interial buildings would be only upraged to more resources couse of good defended command points supply on external buildings. Without this defence now you should wonder with one to choose.

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Axel_Arphenduilin
Axel_Arphenduilin

Yes, that's all true, but it's much harder to protect external economy buildings without its own defense.

If the point was to deliberately make it more challenging to defend them, then okay, I'm fine with that.

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Ealendril
Ealendril

That's the point. ;) Currently it's to easy to defend an economy building by itself.

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Axel_Arphenduilin
Axel_Arphenduilin

That makes sense :)

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Tyzula
Tyzula

No, it's not. It's only Possible for a few economy buildings. For others it's just a small chance to survive while the troops are running to save it.
And often economy buildings just don't live long enough to get those upgrades.
And when the enemy has large enough army to chase you into the castle, they make quick work of those outer buildings anyway.

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DuBaas007
DuBaas007

I agree with this, i think economic buildings should be able to at least fend for themselves against a single unit, tho two or three enemy units should overwhelm the building.

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Guest
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Prince_Kassad
Prince_Kassad

GJ

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moddlord1
moddlord1

Great news!

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David_Jackson
David_Jackson

Awesome! Great news! ^_^

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Odysseus95
Odysseus95

Hmm, the only thing I am worried about is still the ridiculously long research time for internal resource upgrades.

In general, the research times seem very long still. If you think about it, 5 minutes is incredibly long. Let's say you are Gondor and want to have numerous economic structures internally, like 4 you already have to reserve 20 entire minutes to upgrading those. And 4 is not uncommon for Gondor. I do like the increased reward as a trade-off.

A lot can happen in those 5 minutes, especially in higher level play. I think it would be more feasible to reduce it to 4 minutes. So you internally have double cost, double research time ( 2 to 4) but double reward and Citadel protection compared to external plots.

We'll see how it goes. The other changes look really good and my experience with internal testing concerning some of these changes like the Citadel Pantry have been great. Really great!

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Starwarsfan8
Starwarsfan8

I love a lot of the ideas and concepts from this patch. It's looking really good although I do have some concerns.

1. In terms of external vs internal economy buildings, I do like the fact that external buildings provide less resources as to give the defender a better chance, but I would argue that considering both the offensive and defensive player can access and upgrade their internal economy buildings the same way, the offensive player will still have more of an advantage as the external economy buildings provide the additional edge the offensive player needs. Essentially the defensive player is still losing money wise, even if the advantage the offensive player has been reduced, also factoring in that the defensive player will be losing money to build new defenses and then has to get a decent enough army to make a comeback.

In a nutshell, don't you think the defensive player will still lose anyway even with a reduction in external building income since the offensive player will still be making far more money since he can achieve the same amount of income that the defensive player has in terms of internal buildings, in addition to the external buildings he has through map control.


2.I do like the idea of a ladder/troop siege strategy being more viable, I do have a concern that this strategy will limit the defensive player in terms of their ability to build an army as the enemy troops can just kill said troops as they are being trained, forcing the defensive player to scramble before the offensive player sabotages the defensive player's base to the point where they can't recover.

Overall though I do think this patch is an overall improvement and perhaps my concerns don't have any real merit, I just feel that it could lead to a meta that isn't healthy for the game considering the offensive player has more options to sabotage the defensive player. But I guess we will see when the patch comes out, I am curious how it will turn out. And you guys are aware of the concerns as well which makes me happy, "The values aren't set in stone."

Keep up the good work. :)

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FG15 Author
FG15

If he does nothing but staying in his fortress, of course he looses. That is the way it is supposed to be. If you could win by just waiting and doing nothing, noone would do anything at all.

If the offensive player is able to storm the enemy fortress and kill the tropps within, while the defender has nothing left to defend himself, why shouldn't the attacker win?

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Starwarsfan8
Starwarsfan8

True, I guess what I am trying to say is that this patch might not be enough to fix the inbalance of offense vs defense since having more income is such a huge edge.

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red0111
red0111

Can you fix the balancing first? I was 1v1ing a guy who was gondor... And since of the OP Beacons I lost 20,000 Resources worth of Soldiers... They were all the way upgraded and they outnumbdred the beacon people yet they all died in a matter of seconds... The Wizards of Imraldis are OP.... Ered Luin is OP

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officialNecro
officialNecro

Gondor can be countered as long as one knows. Other than that you are right for Ered Luin and the Loremasters, they will hopefully be balanced in the next patch.

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Odysseus95
Odysseus95

ET is aware of Ered Luin's dominance and the ability to stack Loremaster abilities. It's being discussed.

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Glorfindel23
Glorfindel23

The new system "Economy" is very good, I like the idea so much!

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Namek88
Namek88

Great changes and good work... I'm with great expectations as always... Thank you very much to all...
Farewell...

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Lich_King_of_Angmar
Lich_King_of_Angmar

So ready for this right now

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Tyzula
Tyzula

Nooo! I like the economy changes. But don't take arrow towers from external buildings, please. It's so important for Lothlorien's Mallorn trees with armor weakening upgrade. And then with Dark Galadriel upgrade.

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Mr.Bottle
Mr.Bottle

Will the Mallorn Border Guard Spy Post Upgrade be replaced or removed altogether due to redundancy?

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officialNecro
officialNecro

Good question, I was wondering that too

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Potysvk
Potysvk

Two question for devs: if i build farms on outpost, it is external or internal economy building?

Why would i upgrade my farm to sentinel? imagine i am gondor, safely in castle, why would anyone not go for pantry & production?

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officialNecro
officialNecro

From what I can tell farms on the outposts are considered internal, however buildings on settlements are always considered external. Even Mordor Slave Farm and Slaughterhouse will be considered internal if built on an outpost.

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CIS_Droid91
CIS_Droid91

Damn! The german language is soo sexy! <3 <3

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RuudDevil
RuudDevil

so internal eco buildings are now more valuable than external ones? hmmm.

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SamwiseJenkins
SamwiseJenkins

I prefer that idea because too damn often I've been stuck in a fortress with no money, I was essentially "done bwud"

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RuudDevil
RuudDevil

and now you'll have no command points lol

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Sefie1999AD
Sefie1999AD

Based on the news update, I found almost all of the changes a good thing. The arrow defences were just too strong, and while I'll somewhat miss them on external farms, I can see why they were removed. If a player with more map control has upgraded all their farms with 2x Defences, it will be very hard to harass the player who's leading, as you'd practically need siege or a large army to take down even their settlements. The proposed system forces you to defend your settlements with your troops, rather than turtling passively.

If there's one thing that I don't like, it's the 5-minute time for upgrading internal farms. If I remember correctly, you currently need 1 minute to upgrade your farm once, and 1.5-2 minutes to upgrade it again, depending on what you chose for the first upgrade. That's 2.5-3 minutes, and raising it to 5 minutes makes it very slow to tech up your base. It would be more preferable if the outer farms took 1.5-2 minutes to upgrade, and the inner farms took 3-4 minutes.

BTW: "Troops atop walls are now considerably better protected from ranged attacks and walls are harder to destroy with regular siege weapons like towers and rams." Do you mean "... regular siege weapons like catapults and rams"? I don't remember towers being able to destroy walls.

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Stickyboard
Stickyboard

Goblins goblins goblins goblins goblins :D

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hoho96
hoho96

quite like all the changes and the thoughts behind them :D

Though I agree with Odysseus that 5 minutes for a building upgrade is a bit too long.

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HenkHark
HenkHark

I really like all those changes, they look really good, bu I have a question. Which spellbook power will the huorns replace?

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FG15 Author
FG15

Can't say that.

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HenkHark
HenkHark

Because you're not sure yet or because you don't want us to know? xd

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FG15 Author
FG15

Both
And I don't want to spoil anything.

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Axel_Arphenduilin
Axel_Arphenduilin

Wasn't it said that it'll replace the Eagle summon?

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HenkHark
HenkHark

Might be, I don't remember though. Would be a good idea, because a lot of factions have the eagles.

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DieWalküre
DieWalküre

You just need to know that all factions won't have so many similar spells anymore. Everything will be much more differentiated ;)

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Tyzula
Tyzula

Huorn is like a tower and towers (dwarves, gondor) are a second tier power. So it's smth from that tier. But maybe everything got moved. We'll see.
Whoops. This was supposed to be a reply.

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Guest
Guest

the Misty Mountains will be in the edain mod or when ?

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DieWalküre
DieWalküre

Yes, the Misty Mountains are the last planned faction of the Edain Mod. They're not completed yet though, nor are we able to announce the precise release date (we never do it). The faction will be released once it's ready to be so.

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10Dragon
10Dragon

aw so no men of the east faction?

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DieWalküre
DieWalküre

The Misty Mountains are the last planned faction: it means that they are part of the official plan of the Edain 4.0 revolution, if we may say so. On the other hand, there is no plan, nor an official announcement, in regards of an Evil Men faction. Yes, the probability for this hypothetical faction to become reality is quite high, but we have to wait for an official pronouncement from the Edain Team.

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Guest
Guest

It would be nice if we could play alone on the map Mission : The Path of The Edain by playing with several heroes and if possible with our created heroes, because I love this map :D

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officialNecro
officialNecro

You can, in fact you can only play on this map with your own heroes. It has also a coded AI which allows you to play alone although it's not as easy as with other players. You can't play with multiple heroes though.

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Tar_Murazor
Tar_Murazor

I think that all Nazgul shall be named and self recruitable. You know because I think that that five Nazgul are just useless and I hate them. Two Nazgul shall be recruitable in Minas Morgul (Witch King and one more), two in Dol Guldur(Khamul and one more) and five Nazgul in Citadel (Dark Marschall and Shadow Lord and three others). I think this is great idea.

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officialNecro
officialNecro

The Team has stated multiple times that this will not happen. Making every single of the Nazgul heroes would expand Mordor's already huge hero roster too much. This would disrupt the balance as Mordor would now be able to heavily debuff enemy troops on multiple fronts. In addition each Nazgul would require a lot of work to create a new model and lack uniqueness.

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